Big Jay :: Man arrested for cutting down trees on state land
- Thread starter BigJay
- Start date
"Not guilty" pleas entered, and details on the bust:
http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/apps ... 0311/1009/
http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/apps ... 0311/1009/
NHpowderhound
New member
joegm is a troll trying to provoke a fight and I would reccomend to everyone not to take his "bait " and not respond to his posts which all end up with the same narrow minded point of view. Here is a copy of a PM joegm sent me back in 2006:
Lets get this thread back on track. It's a shame these two guys' greed got them into this mess. As mentioned earlier in this thread, illeagal trimming in the woods,wheather it's private, state or national forest has been going on for decades. Done in moderation it is tolerated by the athorities and or land owners. However these guys stepped beyond that invisible and undefined boundary of acceptability and have gotten caught.
As I said earlier it was because of greed that these two gys are in thier predicament. I can feel thier pain though. Big Jay and Red Eyes have been skiing Jay for many years and bring up the points of it getting harder every year to find fresh snow. But that doesn't give someone the right to clear cut thier own trail, especially in a protected area. And I agree that all this press will only draw more attention to the Big Jay B/C.
But there are many more lines these two guys could have skied. The whole Mongomery area is littered with skiable glades. It's just too bad all the way around.
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*))NHPH
Lets get this thread back on track. It's a shame these two guys' greed got them into this mess. As mentioned earlier in this thread, illeagal trimming in the woods,wheather it's private, state or national forest has been going on for decades. Done in moderation it is tolerated by the athorities and or land owners. However these guys stepped beyond that invisible and undefined boundary of acceptability and have gotten caught.
As I said earlier it was because of greed that these two gys are in thier predicament. I can feel thier pain though. Big Jay and Red Eyes have been skiing Jay for many years and bring up the points of it getting harder every year to find fresh snow. But that doesn't give someone the right to clear cut thier own trail, especially in a protected area. And I agree that all this press will only draw more attention to the Big Jay B/C.
But there are many more lines these two guys could have skied. The whole Mongomery area is littered with skiable glades. It's just too bad all the way around.
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*))NHPH
I hate to admit it but I kind of agree with red eyes. If I happen upon this "swath" I will ski it.
I don't get up to Jay very often, But I have been skiing there since the early '80's. I love skiing the glades and the dip and all that, but it is always bumped out. It is tree skiing, but in a way it isn't. I mean it's fun and all... just a bit dissapointing.
I don't get up to Jay very often, But I have been skiing there since the early '80's. I love skiing the glades and the dip and all that, but it is always bumped out. It is tree skiing, but in a way it isn't. I mean it's fun and all... just a bit dissapointing.
Dunno how I lost track of this topic but I'll comment:
I'll hunt out the trees every time. As for my bump skills, they suck.
For those who don't know, I patrolled Jay from 1988-1996. I then lived away for a while, and last skied there about 3 years ago and was shocked, and frankly personally disappointed, at just how busy the place had become. I had to park in a lot that I never even knew existed. Things are definitely not only more tracked out than they used to be, but now that all of my old haunts and stashes are on the trail map I really didn't know where to hunt down good snow anymore.
That said Jay and Stowe remain my two clear-cut (pun fully intended! 8) ) Eastern hills.
Tony Crocker":846k5lp6 said:
I'll hunt out the trees every time. As for my bump skills, they suck.
For those who don't know, I patrolled Jay from 1988-1996. I then lived away for a while, and last skied there about 3 years ago and was shocked, and frankly personally disappointed, at just how busy the place had become. I had to park in a lot that I never even knew existed. Things are definitely not only more tracked out than they used to be, but now that all of my old haunts and stashes are on the trail map I really didn't know where to hunt down good snow anymore.
That said Jay and Stowe remain my two clear-cut (pun fully intended! 8) ) Eastern hills.
JimG.
New member
NHpowderhound":pjc60wr7 said:
I don't agree with what these tree cutters did.
And despite his strong and somewhat confrontational opinions, it really pains me to see posters getting on Joe. He has a passion for bump skiing. I think it's great to see someone that dedicated. I don't agree with everything he says, and I'm sure my opinions aren't universally accepted either.
I enjoy bumps too. I'm not great, but I love skiing them and I enjoy trying to ski them in a low impact style. That's what Joe is talking about when he says there is one right way to ski them. That's the way you see World Cuppers skiing bumps. I mean, nobody looks at a World Cup slalom race and says, "Yeah, but you can do that this way too". You can't.
Why should that be any different for bumps?
Sharon
New member
Rivercoil wrote:
This is really only true in the east where there is a lot of traffic in the woods these days. At Red Mtn, BC, for example, most of the lines in the woods are not bumped up. We were there a week after a snow and the trees were not at all bumped. Definitely skied, but not bumped. Same for Powder Mtn, UT...all we did is ski trees, and nary a bump. Same for Whitewater in Nelson, BC and Crystal Mtn WA.
It is more a nature of the amount of traffic, and we all know that skier density if much more of an issue in the east than the west.
I enjoy skiing bumps, and it certainly has made me a better skier overall, and has helped me in difficult places and in runs such as Timbuktu which is notorious for huge bumps in the trees. Jay Peak = bumps in the trees. I think my years of skiing Jay have really helped improve my off-piste skiing skills more than anywhere else. The awesome glades at Gore are a piece of cake after years of skiing Jay's glades. Gore is almost like how Jay was 10 years ago, when glade skiing first became the big thing to do there. There are still some secret stashes, but they are quickly being found by the masses.
This is really only true in the east where there is a lot of traffic in the woods these days. At Red Mtn, BC, for example, most of the lines in the woods are not bumped up. We were there a week after a snow and the trees were not at all bumped. Definitely skied, but not bumped. Same for Powder Mtn, UT...all we did is ski trees, and nary a bump. Same for Whitewater in Nelson, BC and Crystal Mtn WA.
It is more a nature of the amount of traffic, and we all know that skier density if much more of an issue in the east than the west.
I enjoy skiing bumps, and it certainly has made me a better skier overall, and has helped me in difficult places and in runs such as Timbuktu which is notorious for huge bumps in the trees. Jay Peak = bumps in the trees. I think my years of skiing Jay have really helped improve my off-piste skiing skills more than anywhere else. The awesome glades at Gore are a piece of cake after years of skiing Jay's glades. Gore is almost like how Jay was 10 years ago, when glade skiing first became the big thing to do there. There are still some secret stashes, but they are quickly being found by the masses.
JimG.":12y3lc3f said:
Oh, without a doubt. Prior to the Internet's development the only info for most folks came from the marketing department, so many were naturally skeptical that snow could really be that much better there. Listservs, and later online forums, proved the conditions reports by and large to be true for many, many more people.
J.Spin
New member
I had planned to reply to this thread a while back when I saw River post the above comment, because it really surprised me. It’s totally the opposite of my experience. I’m speaking from my perspective of course, but I’m sure there others that share it and I’m surprised nobody has mentioned it with the way this discussion has traveled. Many of the posts here seem to be talking about “skiing glades”, not “tree skiing”. This may just be local or regional semantics, but glades are “official” runs at ski areas, and they are typically thinned beyond the natural state of the vegetation. The term “tree skiing”, in its most common usage that I’ve experienced, refers generally to skiing the trees between the runs, whether that run is a clear cut trail or a glade. For example, I doubt there are many people that would refer to skiing Murphy’s Glade at Sugarbush (where the trees are probably 50 to 100 feet apart) as tree skiing. People don’t usually refer to skiing Stowe’s “Glades” trail (where the trees average maybe 20-30 feet apart) as tree skiing. Jay Peak’s glades are perhaps a bit more dense than Stowe’s Glades trail, but we’re still talking about an official trail here, with obvious entrances, trail signs, presence on a trail map, difficulty rating, etc. To find “glades” packed out or bumped up is par for the course, they’re official trails and they may even see a level of traffic that’s on par with some fully-cleared trails.riverc0il":452bkspo said:
Jay Peak was innovative in creating so many official glades in an era when most ski areas had just one or two, but to “tree skiers” it’s been a loss. There are fewer areas at Jay Peak for tree skiing now, because so much terrain has been converted to glades. There are still areas for the usual sort of Vermont “tree skiing” at Jay Peak, but relative to the ski area’s acreage, and especially relative to other resorts in Northern Vermont, it is noticeably diminished. That’s why Jay Peak has been rather low on my list of choices for a typical ski day in the past decade or two. Jay is still a great place on powder days of course, and it’s the place to hit when they get that special Jay Peak storm and everyone else is dry, but as someone who likes powder, it’s not my choice for a typical ski day. If you are looking for powder skiing on a day without fresh snow, a ski area with a huge chunk of its acreage already tracked out and/or bumped up isn’t as attractive when most of the other local areas have a lot of untracked terrain remaining between the trails. Skiing in the glades with the combination of moguls and trees is a lot of fun, but it’s akin to skiing a bump run with a little extra constraint on line choice. There’s no doubt that there are some areas that aren’t even official glades that still get enough traffic to bump up (the main line on Big Jay etc.). But, when one considers the vast acreage of tree skiing terrain around, this is an incredibly small amount of the terrain. So that’s why River’s comment (“Tree skiing almost always involves skiing moguls”) was surprising to me, because in my experience it almost never involves skiing moguls. I would agree that one will often encounter moguls when skiing glades though, especially at areas like Jay Peak where they have become so popular.
J.Spin
Like Sharon and JSpin my definition of tree skiing generally does not include bumps. Areas that have been thinned/gladed are more likely to develop bumps. Perhaps more common in the East, but also noticeable on the lower mountain at Taos.
I also enjoy joegm´s posts and perspective. I also feel free to say when I think he´s full of $&!% and do not intend such comments to be taken personally or dissuade him from using this forum.
I also enjoy joegm´s posts and perspective. I also feel free to say when I think he´s full of $&!% and do not intend such comments to be taken personally or dissuade him from using this forum.
JimG.
New member
Tony Crocker":37foqid1 said:
Everyone has times when they're full of $&!% and your commentary belies your understanding of that fact.
Folks react to Joe's passion...his strong opinions are his own worst enemy when it comes to being understood.
Maybe it's my sales coaching background...I'm trained to see the underlying message to any form of commentary and simply overlook Joe's sometimes strong writing style.
A
Anonymous
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riverc0il
New member
J.Spin... it is funny that you caught my inappropriate nomenclature when I usually make such a clear cut difference. I should have stated that on map glade skiing almost always includes bumps. Off map "tree skiing" is usually much less bumped and the further you get from the area, especially earned turns, the more likely the powder percentage goes up and the bump percentage goes down. Inbounds glade skiing though is only not bumped on the day of the storm or perhaps one day following.
J.Spin
New member
Roger that River, I was certainly surprised by the nomenclature knowing how familiar you are with those types of terrain. I didn't get around to responding right away, and after a while when nobody else had brought it up, I began to wonder if I was the one coming out of left field with the terminology. It looks like we're on the same page after all.
J.Spin
J.Spin