Bruce Trail at Stowe

[Patrick]

I have to agree with River on that one. A bit of :-$ discretion, I have Goodman's both books. Info is a bit more detailed that the DOC website.

Billski, I was going to PM the Bruce trail...on well. Get the book, the information on which trail to use at the bottom is also very useful other than my comment "stay on the skier left", because there is a slight variation to that at one point. The LIFT signs point you in the right direction at certain place, but they few and far between.

Have fun!!!

 

[kcyanks1]

kenny, i gotta disagree with you on this one. enough info is out there that anyone reading this thread that wanted to ski the bruce could do just a little bit of research and found it no problem. no need to lead all the joeys off the other side of a mountain that could lead to hackers killing the snow or causing the need for a rescue. not referring to any one that has posted in this thread, but joe skier looking to do something 'cool'. the bruce is BC and needs to be treated that way which imo, includes doing research to obtain info. the bruce is no secret and saying 'go buy goodmans book' is a very good, i am not advocating secrecy in this case, but discretion urged by research.

btw, quoting passages of goodmans book on the net like that devalues his book and could be a copy right issue.

You may have a point with the discretion, but I feel that I'm not encouraging it, but providing factual information that is easily out there. I would hope that most people asking about backcountry trails realize it isn't something to take lightly, but perhaps I'm just being naive. I respect your view, though, and I would like to just add that I would never post the location of something that someone told me or showed me in any form of secrecy. It is only because of the truly public nature of the Bruce that I did it.

As for copyright issues, facts aren't copyrightable, and the location of the Bruce trail is a fact. Goodman's expression is copyrightable (i.e., his wording), but quoting small portions like that, that are mostly factual, would almost certainly qualify as fair use, and hence not be infringement. I have no plans to post portions any larger than what I did.

 

[sven]

kenny, i gotta disagree with you on this one. enough info is out there that anyone reading this thread that wanted to ski the bruce could do just a little bit of research and found it no problem. no need to lead all the joeys off the other side of a mountain that could lead to hackers killing the snow or causing the need for a rescue. not referring to any one that has posted in this thread, but joe skier looking to do something 'cool'. the bruce is BC and needs to be treated that way which imo, includes doing research to obtain info. the bruce is no secret and saying 'go buy goodmans book' is a very good, i am not advocating secrecy in this case, but discretion urged by research.

btw, quoting passages of goodmans book on the net like that devalues his book and could be a copy right issue.

You may have a point with the discretion, but I feel that I'm not encouraging it, but providing factual information that is easily out there. I would hope that most people asking about backcountry trails realize it isn't something to take lightly, but perhaps I'm just being naive. I respect your view, though, and I would like to just add that I would never post the location of something that someone told me or showed me in any form of secrecy. It is only because of the truly public nature of the Bruce that I did it.

As for copyright issues, facts aren't copyrightable, and the location of the Bruce trail is a fact. Goodman's expression is copyrightable (i.e., his wording), but quoting small portions like that, that are mostly factual, would almost certainly qualify as fair use, and hence not be infringement. I have no plans to post portions any larger than what I did.

The whole fanaticism behind "guarding the secret" of backcountry runs (many of which pre-date everyone who still skis) never seemed to make all that much sense to me. It reminds me of some kind of freemason-esque secret handshake society made up of members who derive self value from keeping secrets from others. I think that people who have managed to find these forums, very likely because they are pretty passionate about skiing to begin with, deserve to hear about where good backcountry skiing is to be found. As for protecting people from themselves (& helping rescuers avoid having to constantly rescue random morons), I think the idiot factor is completely independent of the amount of information out there - whether there is a ton of information or a total lack of it - people will make moronic decisions about backcountry travel regardless. If anything, I'd think more familiarity & more information would help to prevent this so called "idiot factor". I really doubt that information posted to First Tracks intending to help people find some terrain & perhaps help them discover an alternative to ultra expensive megacorporate ski conglomerates, will all of a sudden cause whatever trail was mentioned to be instantly overrun by an angry pack of 6 pack wielding New Yorker's in rear entry boots, all anxious to have a big skiing adventure on some random trail out in the middle of the boonies somewhere... And as for copyrights, I don't think there's any need to be concerned over properly quoting and citing something from a book...

Sven

 

[riverc0il]

sven, this whole secret had shake thing about not sharing comes up every time the hot topic of dislosing secrets comes up but nothing could be further from the truth. i challenge any one o nthese forums that skis off the map to suggest that they have never shown a complete stranger to the goods. folks in the backcountry share more than could possibly be believed based on the limited resources available. but they don't do it online. they wait for a guy to tap them on the shoulder asking for a buddy or they try to make a new friend by doing some exploring together. the sharing doesn't take place online. consider how many people there are skiing off the map and how few people that are online posting about it. those of us that do tend to acknowledge to unspoken rule of show don't tell. you post stuff online, and you instantly have 100 bozos (mostly lurkers i might add) running for the money. i would be than happy to show any regular posted on this board with the needed skills to a number of good shots. i sure as heck wouldn.t go blabbing about it on the board.

yea, bruce is known but i still thinking reference goodmans book or being vague is a better policy. while i am open about showing people stuff, i wouldn't show folks that aren' willing to also help themselves and/or run with some hints.

 

[kcyanks1]

The whole fanaticism behind "guarding the secret" of backcountry runs (many of which pre-date everyone who still skis) never seemed to make all that much sense to me. It reminds me of some kind of freemason-esque secret handshake society made up of members who derive self value from keeping secrets from others. I think that people who have managed to find these forums, very likely because they are pretty passionate about skiing to begin with, deserve to hear about where good backcountry skiing is to be found. As for protecting people from themselves (& helping rescuers avoid having to constantly rescue random morons), I think the idiot factor is completely independent of the amount of information out there - whether there is a ton of information or a total lack of it - people will make moronic decisions about backcountry travel regardless. If anything, I'd think more familiarity & more information would help to prevent this so called "idiot factor". I really doubt that information posted to First Tracks intending to help people find some terrain & perhaps help them discover an alternative to ultra expensive megacorporate ski conglomerates, will all of a sudden cause whatever trail was mentioned to be instantly overrun by an angry pack of 6 pack wielding New Yorker's in rear entry boots, all anxious to have a big skiing adventure on some random trail out in the middle of the boonies somewhere... And as for copyrights, I don't think there's any need to be concerned over properly quoting and citing something from a book...

Sven

I pretty much agree with everything you said, though I'm willing to abide by the standard ettiquette, and not disclose the very little I know about backcountry stuff on open boards, as opposed to PMs or emails. Also, if someone tells me something asking me not to post it, I'll follow their wishes. But generally, I do agree that the secret thing is carried too far (though perhaps that's because I'm out of the loop of 99% of the places ). But for things like the Bruce, it's a nonissue to me. It's well-known, published, and readily available.

 

[mergs]

What's the best way to get to the top of Bruce Trail? Is it accessable from one of the Stowe lifts or is it more of a snowshoe/skin up and THEN ride down deal? Any tips on finding the trail entrance?

that would be too easy... do your research you'll find it.

 

[mergs]

sven, this whole secret had shake thing about not sharing comes up every time the hot topic of dislosing secrets comes up but nothing could be further from the truth. i challenge any one o nthese forums that skis off the map to suggest that they have never shown a complete stranger to the goods. folks in the backcountry share more than could possibly be believed based on the limited resources available. but they don't do it online. they wait for a guy to tap them on the shoulder asking for a buddy or they try to make a new friend by doing some exploring together. the sharing doesn't take place online. consider how many people there are skiing off the map and how few people that are online posting about it. those of us that do tend to acknowledge to unspoken rule of show don't tell. you post stuff online, and you instantly have 100 bozos (mostly lurkers i might add) running for the money. i would be than happy to show any regular posted on this board with the needed skills to a number of good shots. i sure as heck wouldn.t go blabbing about it on the board.

yea, bruce is known but i still thinking reference goodmans book or being vague is a better policy. while i am open about showing people stuff, i wouldn't show folks that aren' willing to also help themselves and/or run with some hints.

agreed... its one thing to tell someone face to face and totally another to post the directions online. the latter is way too easy, and in fact, is quite offensive to the locals who put time in maintaining these areas, only have it overrun by weekenders. its a matter of arithmentic really: we have an abundance of bc skiers, but limited terrain (relative to the alps or the rockies). it makes total sense to guard the side-country and backcountry gems. share 'em amongst friends and all, yes.. but keep 'em on the down low.

 

[billski]

The whole fanaticism behind "guarding the secret" of backcountry runs (many of which pre-date everyone who still skis) never seemed to make all that much sense to me. It reminds me of some kind of freemason-esque secret handshake society made up of members who derive self value from keeping secrets from others. I think that people who have managed to find these forums, very likely because they are pretty passionate about skiing to begin with, deserve to hear about where good backcountry skiing is to be found. As for protecting people from themselves (& helping rescuers avoid having to constantly rescue random morons), I think the idiot factor is completely independent of the amount of information out there - whether there is a ton of information or a total lack of it - people will make moronic decisions about backcountry travel regardless. If anything, I'd think more familiarity & more information would help to prevent this so called "idiot factor". I really doubt that information posted to First Tracks intending to help people find some terrain & perhaps help them discover an alternative to ultra expensive megacorporate ski conglomerates, will all of a sudden cause whatever trail was mentioned to be instantly overrun by an angry pack of 6 pack wielding New Yorker's in rear entry boots, all anxious to have a big skiing adventure on some random trail out in the middle of the boonies somewhere... And as for copyrights, I don't think there's any need to be concerned over properly quoting and citing something from a book...

Sven

I pretty much agree with everything you said, though I'm willing to abide by the standard ettiquette, and not disclose the very little I know about backcountry stuff on open boards, as opposed to PMs or emails. Also, if someone tells me something asking me not to post it, I'll follow their wishes. But generally, I do agree that the secret thing is carried too far (though perhaps that's because I'm out of the loop of 99% of the places ). But for things like the Bruce, it's a nonissue to me. It's well-known, published, and readily available.

I have observed that for the subset of society which engages the internet, their traditional communications methods are evolving, and so are their relationships with others as well. As much as I appreciate the advantages of keeping things secretive (though it reeks of being "club-by" and gives the group an air of exclusiveness to outsiders (me included)), it's going to change. Its a matter of how long it will be until that happpens.

I predict that within one generation (20 years) most of our cherished secrets will be laid bare. In most every field, not just skiing. Not that I agree, and I do recognize the merits discussed herein, it's just inevitable. Sorry to be the harbinger of bad news to come, I regret it just as much. I just don't see that it can be stopped.



p. s., Stratton was awesome today. Later.

 

[TroutBum]

oh, i'll throw in my $0.02

it is STILL about getting out there... yes, you can share the beta on boards, however, showing someone the goods is much more fun than telling someone about them... can we agree on that?

All of our excellence in electronic communication doesn't replace the supremely analog experience of taking someone off Baron's for the first time. My first time, I was led my a Sugar Hill old timer named Charlie that made sure I knew the ettiquite of Mittersill. I've seen him since and said 'hi' every time. Relationships... firmed up on the hill. You might even be offered a beer.

Last, as a former patroller, it's fair to point out that it's not the wisest thing to go backcountry *anywhere* for the first time w/o some local knowledge along for the ride... just being your mother, dammit.

Enough... trying to smooth, not stir... all the while praying for snow...

Merry happy and all that,

Mike

 

[billski]

oh, i'll throw in my $0.02

it is STILL about getting out there... yes, you can share the beta on boards, however, showing someone the goods is much more fun than telling someone about them... can we agree on that?

All of our excellence in electronic communication doesn't replace the supremely analog experience of taking someone off Baron's for the first time. My first time, I was led my a Sugar Hill old timer named Charlie that made sure I knew the ettiquite of Mittersill. I've seen him since and said 'hi' every time. Relationships... firmed up on the hill. You might even be offered a beer.

Last, as a former patroller, it's fair to point out that it's not the wisest thing to go backcountry *anywhere* for the first time w/o some local knowledge along for the ride... just being your mother, dammit.

Enough... trying to smooth, not stir... all the while praying for snow...

Merry happy and all that,

Mike

Agreed and I'll raise you $0.02: You'll never replace the experience and camraderie of skiing via any online mechanism!

 

[riverc0il]

All of our excellence in electronic communication doesn't replace the supremely analog experience of taking someone off Baron's for the first time. My first time, I was led my a Sugar Hill old timer named Charlie that made sure I knew the ettiquite of Mittersill. I've seen him since and said 'hi' every time. Relationships... firmed up on the hill. You might even be offered a beer.

nice post =D> brought back memories of my first time hooking up with a local for a tour of barons. what a run, fundamentally changed the entire direction of my skiing and experience. i love tapping someone on the shoulder and nodding my head the other way. i will continue to grab other people i pass and show them something different because someone did it for me once. it is not secretive, it just isn't talked about, especially online. the only risk of that changing is with the possibility of the digital generation of BC'ers being a bunch of braggers. discretion still is the policy nearly everyone follows and i question how much people know that don't follow that policy, that the type of skier i would want to partner up with or ask directions from, nor a skier i would tap on the shoulder.

 

[TshirtFiend]

My problem with the whole secrecy issue is how hard it is to break into. In my 20 years of snow sliding, no one has ever offered to show me the backcountry ropes. So where does that leave me? I have to figure things out for myself, since no formal structure exists for people who want to earn turns.

I'm certainly not suggesting that some formal system should exist, that the backcountry should become the new resort. It would be great, however, if people were a bit more forthcoming with suggestions. If you don't want to tell me where the trail is, fine. At least you could give me some suggestions about where to begin.

That's all I'm asking for, so I appreciate the few books around and people who have volunteered information on this board.

 

[riverc0il]

TshirtFiend, not sure what parts you are hanging around, but all it really takes is striking up a conversation with a local on the chair. if i wasn't so forthcoming myself, i would honestly be surprised how forth coming other people are. it also helps to orient yourself better. follow folks who look like they are on their home turf and see where the locals are skiing. when you are in that area, it is a lot easier to stop next to someone and ask them to point you in the right direction. i may tisk tisk telling of secrets online, but i have never done so on the hill. quite frankly, i am always happy to have someone new to ski with and as mentioned before, it's a blast seeing someone else hit a stash for the first time, it is the only way you can truly relive your first time through cuz it just is never the same once you've mapped it all out.

david goodman's books are the best place to start. try some of those runs and start getting to know the lay of the land. often times, even if you can't find a local to show you where things are, once you start being able to read the mountain, you can pretty much find stuff without much effort. but i still think it won't be needed because there are plenty of friendly regulars always looking for a buddy. i can't tell you how many times i have posted online that i will be heading to my favorite resort and looking for partners and no one ever gets back to me...

 

[lookn4powder]

My problem with the whole secrecy issue is how hard it is to break into. In my 20 years of snow sliding, no one has ever offered to show me the backcountry ropes.

In spite of assurances from the clearly generous souls on this board, your experience more closely reflects mine. Rarely do I find people wanting to share info about stashes. Interestingly, I have come to believe that Eastern locals are more generous with advice on stashes than Western locals--it's hard to generalize on my experience alone--but it seems that way.

I've missed some unique opportunities too. My biggest regret was arriving at MRG a couple years ago in Dec on a powder day. I had broken my arm the day before. A couple locals showed my buddy, who was skiing alone, about every cool line that they could drum up for the conditions. The MRG gang couldn't have been more generous that day!

Later in the season, my buddy and I were skiing on a 18" dump at Alta. I commented that this must be our best ski day of the season. He said "Not bad--but it doesn't beat my day at MRG with the locals."

Dang!

Jeff

 

[Admin]

Later in the season, my buddy and I were skiing on a 18" dump at Alta. I commented that this must be our best ski day of the season. He said "Not bad--but it doesn't beat my day at MRG with the locals."

c'mon out and spend a powder day with the Alta locals. :wink:

 

[TroutBum]

c'mon out and spend a powder day with the Alta locals.

D'OH!! Should've seen that coming!

I hear what people are saying about the posture some take regarding 'the goods'... For one, I'll try to post when I'm skiing, say, Cannon, and you all can PM away, and perhaps we'll connect. I won't bother if skiing one of the aforementioned areas where there isn't as much to play with.

By the way, another Cannon tradition some overlook is the super cheap breakfast buffet at the summit lodge. I think you can get it for like 2 bucks with a lift ticket. A great way to fuel up before heading over a ridge.....

last, happy new years to all the FTO'ers. remember that you can always celebrate New Years, crash, get up and have the run of the mountain 'til 1pm or so, then go home and party some more... or something like that.

Cheers,

Mike

 

[kcyanks1]

My problem with the whole secrecy issue is how hard it is to break into. In my 20 years of snow sliding, no one has ever offered to show me the backcountry ropes.

In spite of assurances from the clearly generous souls on this board, your experience more closely reflects mine. Rarely do I find people wanting to share info about stashes. Interestingly, I have come to believe that Eastern locals are more generous with advice on stashes than Western locals--it's hard to generalize on my experience alone--but it seems that way.

Jeff

I'm very shy and have spent a good portion of my skiing time with family, so I haven't been in a situation much where I would have the chance to learn some, but my very limited experience has been positive. I met someone who I met on a message board at Sugarbush who took me to the Church - yeah, not very secret, and I basically knew how to get there, but I never in a million years would have gone alone. Someone at a bar in Sugarbush also told me about another area. At Jay the past couple days, I saw some people going toward what I thought would be the Dip, and talked with them a few minutes about where to go -- I didn't do it, since I wasn't sure about conditions, and my friend and I didn't have a car dropped there and didn't want to hitch hike. I also spoke with another person at the top of the tram after overhearing his wish (rejected by his friends) to go to Pumphouse (which I have been told where it is in the past, even prior to the Skiing Magazine article ), but I wasn't going to go there -- while I had no complaints of the snow cover, I didn't think it was good enough to try out anything on the ridge, especially with near zero visibility and me having never skied anything up there and not knowing exactly where I was going. I guess you can say these were two cases of me *not* going with someone else to ski a "secret" trail, but I think in either case I had I wanted to, I could've at least had someone direct me where to go.

(BTW, I hope my mentioning names and not locations was acceptible ettiquette even to the more secretive people - I wasn't meaning to give anything away here.)