Frankontour, <BR>Your picture started me drooling!!! <BR><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2654.jpg" ALT="old brochure pic of Mt Saint-Sauveur from Frankontour"> <BR> <BR>That's my kind of trail! Unfortunately, for a large portion of the skiing public, that picture would cause them to run away in fear. The ski areas are depending on more people than just you, me, Joegm etc. The need for higher numbers of paying customers required that areas make their product more appealing - hence the "ballroom" movement of the 80's. Those trails at Saint-Sauveur look like they are central trails and thus are probably highly desireable trails to ski. So, they are gonna get groomed. Cannon's mentatlity is the same. Only the least popular trails don't get groomed every day. Make the most trails accessable to the tail-swishers is their ultimate goal. That's why the front five get groomed so much - and get so icy. I remember seeing a picture of Cannon with all the front trails wall to wall with big bumps - in mid season! Even Profile was bumped! Of course grooming tech was less capable of maintaining those trails back then. But just because you can isn't always a good reason to do something. My thoughts on the trails at Cannon are to create a balance between the really hardcore stuff; Tramline, glades, Avalanche, etc. and the things that are more tame expert trails. The hardcore stuff is what gets the hype and the rep going. But most people can't ski that stuff but still want to ski Cannon to LEARN to. So as Joegm says, we need to have intermediate and low expert levels of the "nasty" (read fun) stuff so people can practice and progress. What do you guys want to see?
Cannon Mtn no bull "bull session"
- Thread starter cancat
- Start date
Frankontour
New member
Yep, for the St-Sauveur trails, it's far from that, today <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/sad.gif" ALT="
"> Both trails are still looking the same way (although it's a high speed quad instead of a double chair, on the East 70), but they're groomed all the way, even in spring. The right one is the biggest """""competitor""""" to Superstar, in the East, for late season killer trail. <BR> <BR>St-Sauveur is one of the most renowned ski area in the world since the end of 1800s / beginning of 1900s. So it was really popular, even with those main slopes. It's sure that in that time, the baby-boomers were about 25-35 years old and were able to take some trails like that easily. Now that they're 50-60, it's not necessary the same (not for everyone Tony) (anyway, my father is 55 and still ski the "Contour") <BR> <BR>For the intermediate bump runs, I think this is quite good for the beginner skiers to practice in the bumps. This winter, I skied with a friend who just skied few times in her life. I think she progressed a lot when she tried the easy bumps of Middle Fantastik at Alta. There is also the "Cascade" at Orford which is always full of beginners skiing this very long easy mogul field (A mile long, but not enough steep to be bumped all way long) <BR> <BR>More there will be intermediate trails on the mountains, more there will be some tougher mogul trails in the mountains and less it will be expensive to maintain the slopes, in my opinion. Anyway, the best way to operate with low cost is to just not maintain at all, like the Mt Alta here. It was considerated like a joke by many people few years ago, but now, with the large boulevards that destroyed almost all the nice narrow mogul trails, those people are now passholders ! hehehe. This is really the little Mad River Glen of the east. 30 trails... 25-26 always bumped up. The bumped terrain is huge, although the runs are short of course. No snowmaking = no ice, except in bad snow years. 1 double chairlift = always powder on the normal & good snow years. <BR> <BR>Center trail of Mt Alta <BR><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2655.jpg" ALT="Mt Alta"> <BR> <BR>BTW, don't forget the chat tonite if you see this msg soon <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/happy.gif" ALT="
">
"> Both trails are still looking the same way (although it's a high speed quad instead of a double chair, on the East 70), but they're groomed all the way, even in spring. The right one is the biggest """""competitor""""" to Superstar, in the East, for late season killer trail. <BR> <BR>St-Sauveur is one of the most renowned ski area in the world since the end of 1800s / beginning of 1900s. So it was really popular, even with those main slopes. It's sure that in that time, the baby-boomers were about 25-35 years old and were able to take some trails like that easily. Now that they're 50-60, it's not necessary the same (not for everyone Tony) (anyway, my father is 55 and still ski the "Contour") <BR> <BR>For the intermediate bump runs, I think this is quite good for the beginner skiers to practice in the bumps. This winter, I skied with a friend who just skied few times in her life. I think she progressed a lot when she tried the easy bumps of Middle Fantastik at Alta. There is also the "Cascade" at Orford which is always full of beginners skiing this very long easy mogul field (A mile long, but not enough steep to be bumped all way long) <BR> <BR>More there will be intermediate trails on the mountains, more there will be some tougher mogul trails in the mountains and less it will be expensive to maintain the slopes, in my opinion. Anyway, the best way to operate with low cost is to just not maintain at all, like the Mt Alta here. It was considerated like a joke by many people few years ago, but now, with the large boulevards that destroyed almost all the nice narrow mogul trails, those people are now passholders ! hehehe. This is really the little Mad River Glen of the east. 30 trails... 25-26 always bumped up. The bumped terrain is huge, although the runs are short of course. No snowmaking = no ice, except in bad snow years. 1 double chairlift = always powder on the normal & good snow years. <BR> <BR>Center trail of Mt Alta <BR><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2655.jpg" ALT="Mt Alta"> <BR> <BR>BTW, don't forget the chat tonite if you see this msg soon <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/happy.gif" ALT="">Cancat, I'll second that "just because you can isn't always a good reason to do something". I remember being so excited when Cannon first started to experiment with winching Avalanche. Now I sometimes wish that someone would sneak into the maintenance yard and take a hack saw to the cable. At least their steepness left some trails off-limits to grooming. But seriously, although I miss the bygone days of moguls on Avalanche as big as VW bugs, the new snowmaking guns and winching it have provided better conditions more of the time. <BR> <BR>I just wish Middle Hardscrabble had a twice-per-season limit on grooming. <BR> <BR>Pollys is a great bump trail when it's got a base, but the last couple seasons they haven't made enough snow on it (until late last season) to cover all the rocks and new water bars; leaving Pollys ungroomed when it's all rocks is like throwing us the scraps from the table. <BR> <BR>I'd advocate making the skiers right of Zoomer off-limits to grooming except once per month, the middle off-limits except once per week, and I'd be happy. Go ahead and groom the skiers left every night, so it's corduroy every morning for the GS-carver-cruiser crowd; I'll be on the other side. <BR> <BR>The few bumps allowed on skiers right edge of Rocket just doesn't do it for me; there's too many changes in the fall line. <BR> <BR>If we had one-third of the trail for bumps on two Front Five trails (the whole vert, not just from the Tram cut-back down), that would be great. Add in the bottom skiers right half of Avalanche, and I'd be really happy on the lower mountain. <BR> <BR>Now leave Middle Hard alone, and give us one or two upper mountain options. I'd like the skiers left third of Profile ungroomed except once per week. And lay off Taft, at least the edges. <BR> <BR>And don't ever touch Barons Run or Taft Race Course - Mittersill is sacred - management is messing with our religion when they send the cats over the state park boundary into the WMNF. <BR> <BR>Marketing can still sell "the Big Easy", because they're still grooming at least two-thirds of every trail (except Middle Hard, and that's not a cruiser even when it has been flattened out). <BR> <BR>OK, I feel better now after ranting, thanks for starting the thread. I know nothing's gonna change, but at least I got it out of my system for another month, and I won't start yelling at the mountain manager about bump runs if I see him in Kelly's parking lot before Labor day.
"Anyway, the best way to operate with low cost is to just not maintain at all" <BR> <BR>"No snowmaking = no ice, except in bad snow years. 1 double chairlift = always powder on the normal & good snow years." <BR>------------------------------------------------- <BR> <BR>These two options will only work in areas with few thaws and regular snows, and where the skier traffic is low. When traffic is increased the snow surface gets worked much harder and quickly solidifies. When temps fluctuate above and below freezing the process is intensified. This means that frequent replenishment of snow is necessary to maintain the skiability of the mogul field. Without the regular snowfall of the snowbelts, a mountain needs to "dust" the trail with snowmaking to keep the surface edgeable even with the high traffic or weather. Unfortunately, mountains are businesses and labor and cost intensive policies like maintaining a bump trail are only grudgingly undertaken if the payback is worth it. Thus the usual response to an icy bump trail is to flatten it. <BR> <BR>-------------------------------------------------- <BR>"I remember being so excited when Cannon first started to experiment with winching Avalanche. Now I sometimes wish that someone would sneak into the maintenance yard and take a hack saw to the cable" <BR>-------------------------------------------------- <BR> <BR>We actually only winched Avalanche once last year. Again, it is a labor intensive procedure with the winch cat we have (read ancient). Most times we groom down the majority of the steep trails. Unfortunately this corner cutting also leads to degraded snow conditions because you tend to strip the snow down instead of just softening the surface as you would on a less steep trail. Ideally a regular winching schedule would keep the steep trails from getting scraped off so quickly. Course I'd only do half of Avy, Zoomer and Rocket!! <BR> <BR>-------------------------------------------------- <BR>"Pollys is a great bump trail when it's got a base, but the last couple seasons they haven't made enough snow on it (until late last season) to cover all the rocks and new water bars; leaving Pollys ungroomed when it's all rocks is like throwing us the scraps from the table." <BR>-------------------------------------------------- <BR> <BR>This is the common train of thought at many areas esp. Cannon. The desire to get the most number of skiers on the most trails leaves the scraps for the bumpers. <BR> <BR>-------------------------------------------------- <BR>"I just wish Middle Hardscrabble had a twice-per-season limit on grooming." <BR>"And don't ever touch Barons Run or Taft Race Course - Mittersill is sacred - management is messing with our religion when they send the cats over the state park boundary into the WMNF. " <BR>-------------------------------------------------- <BR> <BR>Unfortunately, these are not things that are from management. The "flat cats" tend to look for things to do from time to time and decide on their own to flatten a trail or go exploring over the saddle. They consider it to be an improvement so they don't think twice. They are not supposed to go over the saddle at all. Technically it's tresspassing on federal land with machinery. But they seem to do it anyway. Course management doesn't get much bent out of shape about an upper expert bump trail becomming a trail accessable by upper intermediates. <BR> <BR>-------------------------------------------------- <BR>"OK, I feel better now after ranting, thanks for starting the thread. I know nothing's gonna change, but at least I got it out of my system for another month, and I won't start yelling at the mountain manager about bump runs if I see him in Kelly's parking lot before Labor day. " <BR>-------------------------------------------------- <BR> <BR>I'd like to see alot of comments and suggestions here and forward the link to the mountain and see if the get the hint! Keep it up! Also, send your suggestions and requests to the mountain as well. That's how terrain parks sprang up at every hill, cause enough people said "I won't come unless you have one"
Oh, gawd, I said I got it out of my system last night. Cancat, you're the voice of reason. I'll try to keep focusing on the solutions, pick the battles we can win, and quit whining about what might have been. <BR> <BR>Sending suggestions to the mtn seems to fall on deaf ears. The local season passholders are taken for granted - we're the captive audience. It's the day skiers and weekend warriors who really 'vote with their feet' that mngmnt wants to please. [JoeGM, thanks for taking the time to talk to Nat before you "walked" to Loon] <BR> <BR>I recognize there are some really good people working at Cannon who make a big difference. I don't mean to criticize all of them for what I perceive as a poor choice to sell Cannon as the "big easy". The marketing department seems bent on attracting the lucrative beginner-to-intermediate family demographic that Loon and Bretton Woods attract; I can't blame them for that, just don't do it at the expense of Cannon's traditional, loyal expert following. <BR> <BR>A few 'flat cats' like B.W. going off and grooming whatever they want to ski the next day sucks. But I guess I'd rather have someone operating those cats who actually skis and cares about not leaving winrows and divots behind (not easy to do by headlight at night, I'm sure). <BR> <BR>We've got some really dedicated snowmakers, some of whom are very hardcore skiers and riders, and the quality and quantity of snowmaking bang-for-the-buck keeps improving at Cannon. I don't always agree with where and when they're blowing snow, but overall snowmaking is better now than ten years ago. (...nah, I won't get started on what a waste of snow Billys Basin tubing park is...). <BR> <BR>Patrol by and large is a great group of dedicated pros, who care more about safety than being 'ski cops'. <BR> <BR>I know I'm preaching to the choir when I tell you any of this. <BR> <BR>Most of the news out of Cannon this summer is good: <A HREF="http://www.cannonmt.com/2004summerupdate.html" TARGET="_top">http://www.cannonmt.com/2004summerupdate.html</A> <BR>Conspicuously absent for the nth season in a row is any mention of summit building improvements. I'm also apprehensive about access to the slopes from the parking lots now that the "bridge" between the old and new Peabody Lodge has been replaced by a retail shop. Every year they try to get us to park further away from the snow; I don't want to park on the other side of the street or ride a shuttle bus from my car to the slopes! But Cannon is making progress, and the net effect of this year's changes is still positive. <BR> <BR>After watching my son improve over the past four years, I can say Franconia Ski Club is one of the best skier development programs in the East. Trevor and all the coaches do a great job. These kids learn to ski well, race fast, and love to ski. <BR> <BR>Oh, yeah, and Cannon Mountain has some of the best terrain in NH, and the best ski lift in NH. See you on Tram 1 in November!
Frankontour
New member
Hmm, I'm a little bit late on this thread... with the press conference at Orford today... <BR> <BR>About your first point, Cancat, you're right about new england... but not totally for Quebec which is colder and the temperature rarely pass over the freezing point in winter (except in 2001-02). But in New England, I admit the climate is more variable... just like the Townships. <BR> <BR>The secret is really to have a terrain enough big for the lift capacity... and clear lines in the woods in many places. So the people do less runs in a day and are less concentrated in the trails. It's the only way to have some great conditions all the time I think. It's exactly that at Alta. With something like 20 trails starting on top, there is still powder a long time after the snowfalls... you just have to know the spots !! and there is some of them everywhere !! <BR> <BR>Anyway... I would like it to be 585m instead of 585' ... I admit !!!!!! <BR> <BR>(BTW, Lftgly, I talked today of the "Contour" to the CEO of Mt Orford and he looked like receptive to the situation <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/happy.gif" ALT="">) <BR> <BR>A sure thing, it's not by complaining on the web (like I usually do) that we're going to change something ! Sending comments, talking to the CEOs, etc can be good for us. <BR> <BR>Hey Cancat, could you send this page to the other cat operators at Cannon please ??
">) <BR> <BR>A sure thing, it's not by complaining on the web (like I usually do) that we're going to change something ! Sending comments, talking to the CEOs, etc can be good for us. <BR> <BR>Hey Cancat, could you send this page to the other cat operators at Cannon please ??I'm too junior to have much direct influence on the way individual cat drivers approach the mountain. (I'll be going back for my second year at Cannon) They have been grooming there for many years and have very ingrained ways of doing things. I have my own opinions and they have theirs. When they get the option, they prefer to groom a trail rather than let it stay untouched and thus available to less skiers. They either like the challenge of "cleaning up" a trial, or prefer to ski ballrooms. I prefer to leave some trails really nasty and challenging just to maneuver complete with rocks, ice and brush, others with smooth bump lines, others perfectly flat, others with big rollers, and others with pipes and kickers (my specialty)...to have something available for different tastes. Cannon has enough trails to supply all tastes, but the numbers are limited. The groomed trails get really beat up on busy days. Grooming Upper Hard to provide another upper intermediate trail down from the top takes some percentage of the pressure off of the other trails, but it reduces the limited expert terrain by a much higher percentage especially when the Tramline and OB options aren't available. Adding some more upper expert terrain would allow the management to exert some influence on the "flat cats" to leave more trails wild because their would still be enough groomed trails to handle the swishing and carving traffic. <BR> <BR>(***dream sequence***) <BR> <BR> <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2658.jpg" ALT="Dream Map"> <BR>I could see adding some upper expert terrain in a couple of places. There is room for 3 more trails with serious pitch without crowding in the Hardscrabble Drainage. 1 glade lining up with last year's middle hard runout avoider and two further out than the Hards. Another trail between Skylight and Profile would help up above and line up with Lower Hard, and Sno-E's original master plan showed Bansee being extended up to the top of Paulie's Extension. A little more creativity with the allignment would create a crazy twisted ride that would start with a long fallaway corkscrew turn from the pitch above where Paulie's Extension meets Middle Cannon to the pitch below the cliff band then down to the existing Banshee trail. <BR> <BR>(***end dream sequence***) <BR> <BR>Sorry got carried away again!!! Actually, one of the biggest arguements for expanding onto even just the State owned portions of Mittersill is that the extra acerage would take some pressure off of the main mountain from swishers and possibly allow for a trail or two to be left to bump up. <BR> <BR>Thoughts???
Frankontour
New member
Just a question on your topo map, Cancat. There is a trail on left of the tram, starting on top. I didn't looked 1000000 times the trail map of Cannon, but it seems me that there is no trail there ???? Except that, the 2 dream trails right of Hardscrabble should be really interesting, as that side seems to be enough steep, on a long vertical, but not too much rocky. <BR> <BR>I can't comment or argue too much here, as I never went to Cannon, but I would probably not come unless there is some decent ungroomed terrain for sure ! <BR> <BR>It's a little bit like Owl's Head, here. They widened all the twisty narrow trails, over the last few years, to make large groomed boulevards. I don't know if I'll go back there in the future... as there is almost nothing bumped remaining on this enough big mountain with one of the most famous view in the east. There is simply no good skiers there, I think, so the passholders make pressures to widen and groom all the trails. They killed a nice mountain.
Frankontour
New member
PS : I didn't talk of Vista Way, but the T2B trail !
(Risking this by using a Palm device again.) <BR> <BR>Cannon is a classic, and well eserving of a visit, no matter what - both for present-day enjoyment, and for a taste of its rich history. Should you go, don't miss the opportunity to peruse the collection at the New England Ski Museum at the base of the tram.
Frankontour
New member
Well, I suppose that like the Tramline trail, a groomer will never go there 
Looking at the terrain of Tramline, if the Kinsman looks the same way, there is good chances that I finally go to Cannon soon. <BR> <BR>When you talked of this glade in the "news in the ski areas this summer" thread, I thought it was a glade somewhere near Paulie's extension & Avalanche. <BR> <BR>It looks cool, as it's literaly T2B... quite a bit looking like the "42" in the good old times at le Massif, on the trail map !! <BR> <BR>see watta mean <BR><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2659.jpg" ALT="Le Massif in 2000"> <BR> <BR>this was one of the best in Quebec... what a shame...... (it wasn't a glade, though)
Looking at the terrain of Tramline, if the Kinsman looks the same way, there is good chances that I finally go to Cannon soon. <BR> <BR>When you talked of this glade in the "news in the ski areas this summer" thread, I thought it was a glade somewhere near Paulie's extension & Avalanche. <BR> <BR>It looks cool, as it's literaly T2B... quite a bit looking like the "42" in the good old times at le Massif, on the trail map !! <BR> <BR>see watta mean <BR><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2659.jpg" ALT="Le Massif in 2000"> <BR> <BR>this was one of the best in Quebec... what a shame...... (it wasn't a glade, though)
Frankontour
New member
(hmm... another PS) don't search for a #42 on the trail map..... the 42 was <B>#20</B> !!! <BR> <BR>its name is from the first development years, when it was the 42nd trail on the master plan. it was open in the early years, but closed an reopen only from 1994-95 to 2000-01. Now, there is just a little part remaining and the rest is the national ski training park.
Cancat, nice quality scan of the SnoE expansion plan! Did you find that on the web, or one of your own? I've got a scan I made years ago of a hardcopy plot obtained at the Town Hall public hearings. It's not very high quality, and by the time I reduce it's size to upload here, it won't be very good. I'll give it a shot, and upload it later. <BR> <BR>I take it the red-lined trails are your "dream" additions? I agree with you on all three.
OK, I hope that after taking the time to reduce my scan's rez down to 72DPI, resize it to 9.2"x14.22", and cut it into 14 strips, Cancat won't tell me it's already on the web in hi-rez somewhere! I prepared a bigger version with 29 strips, but I dare not try uploading that until I see if this even works; it looks OK in an HTML preview I created, so here goes: <BR> <BR>The October 28, 1998 sno.Engineering Master Development Plan <BR> <BR><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2660.jpg" ALT="1"> <BR><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2661.jpg" ALT="2"> <BR><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2662.jpg" ALT="3"> <BR><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2663.jpg" ALT="4"> <BR><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2664.jpg" ALT="5"> <BR><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2665.jpg" ALT="6"> <BR><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2666.jpg" ALT="7"> <BR><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2667.jpg" ALT="8"> <BR><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2668.jpg" ALT="9"> <BR><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2669.jpg" ALT="10"> <BR><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2670.jpg" ALT="11"> <BR><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2671.jpg" ALT="12"> <BR><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2672.jpg" ALT="13"> <BR><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2673.jpg" ALT="14">
Frankontour
New member
Lol, very great job, Lftgly. With "Paint", it will be easy for us to have the perfect map. <BR> <BR>Thanks a lot. I hope the right part will never happend
I drove up to Cannon to check out the base lodge construction and new lift. I could see forms for a couple lift tower foundations, but they haven't even started on the base of the lift. <BR> <BR>The Peabody Lodge contruction has progressed a little since the web site photos last week. The interior of the old lodge has been pretty much gutted from the central fireplace to the former ski shop end, and it looks like they've started framing new walls. The floor joists are on the new foundation for the retail shop. <BR> <BR>Having seen it first-hand, I still can't picture how people are supposed to get from the parking lots to the slopes, now that the new retail shop has cut off the access under the old "bridge". I guess there's still a narrow path under the deck next to the "new" 1980 lodge that comes up next to the Peabody Station deck. It's a long way around either end of the two base lodge buildings. Maybe in a couple months it will be more apparent what they plan to do. We could just bring our skis through the lodge, LOL.
Actually, the map I used is from this very online mag courtesy of: <BR>"Cannon Mountain Expansion Project: <BR>An Armchair Analysis" <BR>by Chip Olson <BR><A HREF="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/cannondev.htm" TARGET="_top">http://www.firsttracksonline.com/cannondev.htm</A> <BR>The map is great to check out, the analysis is a little dated now because phase 1 is pretty much complete and the rest has been significantly altered due to the dissolution of the land swap. Incidentally, you can see on the map the approximate boundary of the National Forest land and what is lost by not being able to go through with the swap. The Brookside expansion and the trail referred to as "Dickie's Pipe Dream" which will be the new KINSMAN GLADE trail are coming online this year because of the resulting re-evaluation of priorities. The Peabody Lodge rebuild was put on the front burner as well as. It will be interresting to see how the Master Plan on the map will be reworked. I hope they ask me what I think...;-) <BR> <BR>I agree that access to the slopes is up in the air due to the expansion. My only guess is that the other route under the bridge by the old Patrol location will be reconfigured to be the new access point.
Frankontour
New member
lol, not only there was a project map, but more... it was on FTO ! <BR> <BR>Thanks for the link, cancat. For the way to pass, at Cannon... it's a little bit like the poor "Onesime" trail, at Tremblant. It was a 200' wide slope in the early 90s. Now, it's a 15' wide slope and it changed 6-7 times of design in the last years. Now, it passes just beside many lodges and even pass in a tunnel in a building. So I guess Cannon will find a way to make a decent access.