Cannon Mtn no bull "bull session"

The problem since there built over (ie. tunnel) Onesime at Tremblant is that most times there is more snow and you have to remove the skiis higher (unless you have old skis or don't care about them). The fact that they added gravel everywhere so the tourists don't slip on snow when they are walking also doesn't help!!! <BR> <BR>BTW, I have a photocopy of the Intrawest Project map (trails and everything) for Tremblant published in a long story in the LaPresse newspaper (1993?). Interesting to see the difference. They did the Edge, versant Soleil. Didn't go to the Johanssen Summit, yet!!!
 
cancat, thank you for starting this topic. your dedication, commitment, care, passion, and excitement for cannon and you're job there are noted and appreciated. <BR> <BR>most on this forum will know i'm a cannon die hard and consider the mountain my favorite spending 1/3 of my ski days there. most will also remember some of my tirades against the over grooming of the previous season. hopefully if this topic does get forwarded to cannon's management, they will take note of our objections and reach a compromise on the groomed vs. bumps arguement. obviously, hard core no grooming and having all expert trails bumped isn't gonna cut it any more, i accept that. but here would be my contributions to the discussion in an arguement against the recent over grooming: <BR> <BR>the HALF GROOM is the most under utilized grooming style at EVERY resort i've been to. why limit a WIDE trail to edge to edge grooming. i propose that at a miminum the diamonds on the front five have at least a half groom. pollys extension is also an excellent candidate for the half groom. the bumps on the side of gary's and rocket are excellent... but i know racing on both trail makes half groom a tough option. <BR> <BR>now, trails not to groom: polly's was cannon's nastiest trail before tramline and kinsman glade, so let's please keep that all bumps. no grooming on middle hard also please, except when it gets ultra nasty (2x per season is okay). and don't touch any trails in the WMNF, don't make us complain to the folks at WMNF service that cannon is breaking the law, cause that's what it is plain and simple. <BR> <BR>options: i LOVE taft slalom and upper hard not groomed. they won't work well half groomed, and when they get groomed... they turn into ice rinks. you don't want intermediates going down an ice rink no more than bump trails, so why not at least make experts happy? <BR> <BR>why doesn't vista way ever get a good grooming? vista way is hands down the worst trail at cannon. i dunno if it's blown off snow, no snowmaking, lack of grooming, etc. but i've never once enjoyed that trail. groom that one! also, go ahead and groom skylight, profile, and lower hard into oblivion... those are fun trails to crank some speed on. groomers can have the banshee slopes too, faster getting back to the tram that way. <BR> <BR>so here's my opinion on the bumps and expert runs in summary: <BR> <BR>all bumps all the time: paulie's, mid hard, mittersill (WMNF land). that's it! don't touch those three, not unreasonable? <BR> <BR>occasionally plow: taft slalom and upper hard when they get ugly. they will be uglier if plowed everyday any ways. <BR> <BR>half groom on: zoomer, avalanche, paulies extension (down the middle - leave the sides) and small bumps on one side of rocket and gary's when possible. <BR> <BR>let the groomers wreck havoc on: skylight, profile, vista way, mid hard, banshee slopes. <BR> <BR>it seems strange to me that any trail called "Hardscrabble" would be groomed at all, but lower hard doesn't interest me much and it's okay for upper to get plowed now and again i think. <BR> <BR>remember that even though kinsman glades and tramline have opened, that even most experts can't ski them! having two extreme trails is no reason to forget about regular experts who have not mastered super human form quite yet. <BR> <BR>alright, i've said my piece and offered my suggestions! i'm gonna try to keep quiet on this topic and see what happens. judgement shall come by mid-january in the no bull reports!!!!
 
Just a precision about the point of Riverc0il. In the part : "let the groomers wreck havoc on", I think you should read : LOWER hard. <BR> <BR>Thanks a lot for your contribution, Riverc0il and it was a pleasure to read you as it's been a while ! (the huge thread I think). <BR> <BR>Although I never skied at Cannon, I hope that the management of the resort will see this thread, cause this would be 1 ski area to see and understand our opinion. And after that, it could attain the ears of other ski area's management. <BR> <BR>Anyway, Cannon is in my head for a while, for skiing, as it's the 1st ski area I have seen in the states, when I was very young... so it's sure I will finish by skiing it, especially if there is some great stuff to ski <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"> <BR> <BR>Btw, Patrick... I didn't know that for Onesime... as I always park on the north side, when I go to Tremblant, except the early/late season, when Onesime is closed anyway.
 
Riverc0il, nice to hear from you on this topic! I enjoy your posts on the NELSAP board as well! maybe we can get them talking about it as well and get both threads to Cannon's managers. Definately don't keep quiet on the subject!!! Keep up the suggestions! <BR> <BR>As for the specifics, I started grooming at Gunstock 6 years or so ago after several years of instructing. THAT was an over groomed mountain!! They groomed all but two trails, one was hardly ever open and the other was a glade. Then I went to Ragged. There, there was much more balance but the snowmaking and the vertical were less than at Gunstock. When I stepped up to Cannon I was very excited to be at a mountain that had REAL expert terrain. It's rep as a hardcore hill meant I would have at least a couple of trails to practice my bump skiing on. <BR> <BR>Rocket started the year with 1/3 bumps and they were PERFECT. Zoomer opened but never really picked up good lines cause it got grommed full width to start. When Avy opened, 1/3 never got touched so the bumps were also PERFECT. By this time though, the half and half policy on Rocket was ended as the "flat cats" decided to "clean up the edges". Paulie's was open with nice natural bumps with thin cover but then when the snowmakers finished with the trail it had huge whales that needed to be spread out and groomed. The good lines didn't return. On the upper mountain the "Hards" hadn't been touched. Upper was done first to increase trails down from the top. Baron's was done to let lower experts better negotiate the trail. Middle hard stayed till mid season. Then it was decided to "improve" conditions on the trail by grooming it. The good lines never re-established there either. This illustrates a fundamental problem in the East. There is not sufficient or regular enough natural snowfall to counter the effects of flattening any upper intermediate trail and let bump lines reform. Once a trail is flattened the skidding of skiers scrapes the snow into piles that are too far apart to nurture a good line. the bump lines on Avy were the only ones that remained untouched all season and they were the BEST all season. The solution is evident to anyone who skied any of the open trails that were receiving snowmaking. Great bump lines formed very quickly next to where the huge piles were forming. So where possible, DON'T TOUCH THE BUMPS! If one must groom the trail, do it right before a big dump (tough to time) or keep the snowmaking going after flattening in a reduced volume after the trail is opened so the skiiers will form the nice lines in the fresh snow but the trail will have an even base from the flattening. <BR> <BR>As for the specific trails, I agree with riverc0il that AVY should get half bumps, Paulies is sweet left to itself though with a snowmaking base for sure. Paulie's Ext I think would work best bumped on skier's right to catch windblown snow. I love skiing Zoomer liftline with bumps not to mention watching on the way up ( it's not really bump skiing unless someone is watching from the lift!) so let that bump up and spill out onto Zoomer itself - maybe 1/3 out. Flatten the rest skier's right for a nice fallaway steep. Rocket - as you said, definately half and half, riverc0il. We need the intermediate bumps. Though what do you think about creating a new entrance from Mickey's Margin down to the wide section of Rocket where the trail makes it's sidehill cut. let that bump up and continue skier's left all the way down. That would eliminate the weird sidehill and make it easier to groom the other half. The extra width at the headwall can bump up above the new glade next to the lift unload. Gary's is probably best left flat side to side as it is race central. <BR><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/2681.jpg" ALT="Front Five"> <BR> <BR>Up above, we'll probably never see Taft as a dedicated bump run. It helps Upper Ravine as a route from the summit. I love the thought that the "Hardscrabbles" should be that in more than just name. Though I would gladly give up Upper if a new trail was cut further out. Upper is not "all that" unless it is bumped, but it actually teams up well with taft for an upper intermediate way down when groomed. As for Vista Way...It's a tough trail to groom. It is ledgy with random rocks and there is no snowmaking. It takes a lot of snow farming mid season and most of a night to cover the trail well once enough snow has blown in. Then the wind puts it all back along the trees again as it gets skiied off. It is a beautiful trail to ski but it needs work and snowmaking before it can be a reliable route. So, it stays a mess. Not real good as a bump trail and not grommed much. <BR> <BR>Mittersill - HEAR! HEAR! riverc0il! Mittersill is an adventure and should stay that way. Don't "clean it up" for the general public. That's what the Cannons and Ravines are for. It is a perfect first "off piste" or OB trek. Don't make it just a trail you hike too. <BR> <BR>Can you tell I want to get back on the snow? I get carried away with every post!
 
Frank, <BR>Correction: The tunnel part has "No more snow" and NOT more snow (what I typed). Unfortunately going to the North side is a longer drive coming from Ottawa, however 2 of the 3 times I went to Tremblant this year, I drove pass the South side parkingssss to reach the lone North side parking. The North is in fact a much better option when driving from Montreal, especially if you are not a fan of Disneyland. <BR> <BR>About Cannon: <BR> <BR>I agree with most of what RiverOil said. I only skiied Cannon 5 times (4 times on Super Bowl Sunday). Even if Avalanche is in my opinion, one of the best expert groomed runs in the East, I don't have any objection the half groomed stuff (I believe that I mentioned that earlier). Taft experience should not be groomed (agree). Funny thing, memories about Vista Way (not groomed) are mostly great, not like Taft!!! A bit rough at time, but fun.
 
Patrick : I understood for the snow in the Onesime ! <BR> <BR>For the north side of Tremblant, I don't like the south side & all the village. I really prefer to park my car at 50' of the Duncan Express... and just beside the tickets and a correct lodge (in my standards). I really don't need a Disneyland while I'm going to ski and anyway, all the best trails at Tremblant are on the North side + Edge, so why going to south ??? (Ok, when the Middle/Lower Ryan are great, it worth a run + 1-2 on the "Soleil" Side. <BR> <BR>For the project map, I forgot it in my last post, but if you could scan it... I know what you're talking about and I would like to see it to see the difference, now. If I correctly remember, they indicated the Soleil side just like if it was starting on top of "La porte du soleil" triple chair ? We cat forget the Johannsen peak. Anyway, it's better like it is now and with the terrain swap they did, it won't come back in the project in the next years for sure ! <BR> <BR>And back for Cannon : I'm a little bit curious about Avalanche ! I have a few pics of it, but I admit to rush to understand why it is exactly seen like a holy trail by many people. Ok, I like to ski some high & steep groomed trails few rare times and here, Maxi at Orford and Super "S" at Ste-Anne are good for that, but the Avy doesn't look on pics to be so much incredible. Anyway, I should ski it before to talk.... and anyway2, the Avalanche trails I skied are all in the best groomed trails of their mountain.
 
wise and knowledgable words from cancat. it is simply amazing the difference between bumps never groomed vs. plowed when they get temporarily nasty. one can understand the drive of a ski area to make the trail "ski-able." i mean, there were some days last season that paulie's was just plain mean and violent. as a bump skier though, you suck it up on those days cause when the pow fills in the bumps they are twice as nice all over again. <BR> <BR>this past season was tough because the base came early, but after mid-january through march we didn't get much good re-surfacing natural snow. <BR> <BR>skid bumps are an ugly thing. it's funny how it takes good bumps skiers to build good bumps. and a whole lotta snow to push around. groom the bumps on a bump trail... it makes future bumps nasty nasty nasty. interesting. never thought of it that way. always figured there was eventually a time when the bumps needed to get flattened out. but then again, MRG has some of the best bump lines around. they gotta know what they are doing! <BR> <BR>avy did indeed have some of the best lines consistantly through out the season. vs. the groomed sections of avy which featured "slide bumps" near the banshee cutoff. that stuff was just ugly cause intermediates use that cut off to get back to the tram. <BR> <BR>cancat, i think we're all starting to get bit with the skiing bug. i've begun the process just this past week of "needing" some turns.
 
my comp has been down for a week so i am just catching up to the great discussions going on with the many perspectives from can cat the insider, tony c the westerner and all the regular crew from canada... everybody has been making good valid points... in regards to cannon and the idea of grooming and bumps and all that. my 2 cents are this: gromming is necessary for a place like cannon to attract the type of skier that pays the margins that allow the rest of us sick birds to ski on the cheap and get in 30 to 60 seasons... ( not to mention the fact that all good aspiring bumpers should be spending at least 60% of their time in the flats anyways ) i accept this and gratefully acknowledge that an accomadation needs to be made to some degree for these weekend warriors or average blue cruisers or whatever it is you want to call them. they are not the heart and soul of skiing for sure, but the fact is they contribute a lot to the revenue side of the equation... even at a place like cannon which is certainly more of a hard core type place... if the lifts can't spin cause the electric bill can't get paid... then heart and soul and all that means squat and you can plan to sell your alpine bindings and buy some randonee's and start hiking.... not that there is anything wrong with that either!!!!!! <BR>all i care about is mogul skiing.. it's been that way for about 3 years now... i realize ( boy do i realize ) not everybody cares about skiing bumps and i can appreciate how some people would be repulsed by it... sometimes i am!!!!the more i get into it , the more i see how hard it is....to do WELL....there is no doubt in my mind that in terms of non-pro skiers, that bump skiers are the best skiers on the mountain... i say in terms of non pro because to sit here and start an argument about who is a better skier, bode miller or jonny moseley is ludicrous.... the top echelon of any discipline is just as hard to reach as any other.... it would be like saying it is harder to be a pro football player that a pro baseball player or soccer player....my point is that bump skiing is the hardest type of skiing to do well at a high level but which is not a pro level... when i say that, i do not say it to disparage racers or race programs or jibbers or big mountian skiers or powder skiers or whatever the heck you fancy your self to be partial to.... but the fact is there are not very many recreational bump contests ( at least in the east ) for non pros... plenty of adult race leagues with the local business and local yokels... plenty of big air or jib comps that you can get into and ruin yourself in for the nomimal entrance fee and a show of some relative degree of competancy... but bump contests ... no way... i think this is partially becasue that bump skiing, unlike most other types or conditions of skiing, is really not a heck of a lot of fun if it is not being done with some degree of skill... u can't really fake bump skiing... this is not meant to sound elitist in any way at all, because believe me, if there is anyone who is NOT legit yet , it's me and i know it.... i have no illusions about going to vancouver in 2010 and bidding for gold in the mens moguls arena... but my goal is to get to the upper level of recreational bump skiing... whatever that is and what level of skill that requires i can't really quantify...it's kind of like you just know when you see a legit bumper, which truth be told, outside of blackcomb in the summer and k mart in may, is pretty rare.. but they are out there... my point in this? in one of the 100 or so postings i just finished reading, can cat essentially asks "what is it you guys want?" well my two cents are these... bump skiing , the hardest type of recreational skiing , is just like any other type of skiing... you are a novice , then a intermediate then an expert in that order.. just like when , back in the day, we all put on the sticks for the first time and slide around like jackasses on our heels trying to turn the skis... the logical progression is to start out on the pretty green colored slope... progress to the blues and then the blacks... when little kids are put in race programs at mountains like cannon, i find it hard to believe they are started off running the gates on pitches that have any resemblance at all to paulies or avie or zoomer or hardscrabble....and i also have trouble believing that when the surface of the race runs becomes compromised with ruts and any other thing that nature throws at it, that it is not promptly fixed with mechanical machines and brought back to optimum level... WHY SHOULD BUMP SKIING SURFACES BE ANY DIFFERENT. what do i want can cat? well, i wouldn't mind playing ceterfield for the red sox, but if there is one thing i would hope would be able to be addressed in the skiing world is the utter lack of respect for mogul skiing.... cannon ( and i'm not picking on cannon cancat, cause 99% of the resorts are guilty of it i say ) i would like to see make an effort to have a medium pitched , MAINTAINED, BUMP RUN, with good ACCESS...1) MEDIUM PITCHED MEANS NOT AVIE OR ZOOMER OR PAULIES... it means a run that an aspiring bumper can try and ski and not feel like from the first turn that they are on their heels and turning like crap... i'm past that to some degree now but for 3 years it sucked and there was no need for it and i can easily regress back to that if the conditions become somewhat marginal ( and at a place like cannon, well , enough said ) i am not ashamed to admit i can get thrown back into bad form from the first turn because like i said... i know i'm not legit yet. most reasonable sane recreational skiers, after getting down paulies on a marginal day, pretty much have the attitude of " u can stick that run where the sun don't shine " 2) MAINTAINED.... why can't bump runs be treated at least 1/2 as well as the precious groomed race runs... what do i mean?... it means when the bumps on the front face get ridiculously big and spread out in jan feb and march and the lines are so trashed and rutted from the poor souls who wanted to try the " BUMP RUN " that they really are not even lines at all to anyone but the us mogul team, WHY CAN'T THEY BE FIXED... 2 possibilites, the ideal is to knock em down once a week completely, and rebuild them with the grommer on an angle cut.. cancat knows this can be done and how to do it.. the problem is, in my humble opinion, his bosses will not allocate the resources to do it, especially when the precious g.s runs have to be taken care of for the race teams or the 40 foot booter table need some work or the pipe need to be cleaned up... ( see the pattern here boys, everyone gets allocated resources...except bumpers...) the second thing that would help is every other day just cap em off with a groomer and keep em reasonable... the management at ski areas might actually start seeing people skiing them and god forbid maybe even trying to ski em correctly by pressing tips into the frontside and carving down the backside instead of having to ski around them... 3) GOOD ACCESS... i'm sorry but hardscrabble is not good access... it's a killer run and i love it but my point is would cannon even consider making all the recreational racers travel as far as hardscrabble to get to their MAINTAINED recreational race run for the big race?.. i think not.... can cat you sound like a good guy who actually gives a rat's ass... i've tried talking to nat and his response has been that he cannot afford to give up the terrain for a dedicated blue mogul run... he did not/would not address the issue of manpower allocation to maintain existing bumps runs.... it's probably beyond him, cause he doesn't seem like a bad guy either... but who the hell is responsible then? where does the buck stop ? i'm done... again great posts from all the usual suspects!!!!! the degrees of slope discussion is great
 
ihhhh... I think Joegm passed the record for the longest post of the year ! I'm pleased to see you back ! <BR> <BR>I agree with you, River, the ski bug passed recently for many people. There is no snow anymore in Tucks since max 2-3 days. (at least nothing visible on the close cam view). Blackcomb closed last week, but I don't know,... there is something that seemed to hit us just like at the moment of the huge conversation of Killington, at the end of the lift-serviced season in the east. It's cool to see you all come back. 59% of the summer is done. Soon, the nights will begin to be cold. Not so far we could see some early snowfalls in Tucks... soon Tenney will try to entertain us, trying to open on oct 1. Soon the snow will come back and all I hope is that next winter be as good as 2000-01 <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"> ! <BR> <BR>I agree with you, Joegm, on the fact it is the "groomed terrain skiers" that often allow the ski areas to remain open. Even at MRG... they begin to put some pics of Chute & Grand Canyon groomed, in their photo gallery... it's tough to believe. At least, most of the ski areas have some decent bumped terrain and I found quite sad that some ski areas like Cannon & Loon in NH just forgot to let some decent bump terrain last season. <BR> <BR>I don't exactly know how is situated Hardscrabble, I mean if you have to walk to join it, but honestly, the more a trail is easy to find and reach, the less it has some good conditions. It was really cool in the old time to walk 3/4 of mile to reach the "42". The snow was always excellent there and the bumps were incredible. Almost every places tough to access offer the greatest moguls conditions in a resort. Ok, may be it's not exactly some competition bumps, but I don't think that Hardscrabble is a competition bump run anyway. <BR> <BR>An impressive example here is the little Mt Shefford with his t-bars. All the bars have are full, but there is 30% of people who leave the t-bar at the lower 1/3 of the mountain. 40% leave the t-bar at the 2/3 of the slope and 30% (or even less) continue to summit. On the ones who reach the top, there is 3/4 of people which take Avalanche, Coulée or Astérisque as they don't need walking. 10% take the "Mistral" which just need a little bit of walking. So there is 15% of people that continue into the walking of la Crête... and originally just 4,5% of the people entering in the t-bars. This trail leads to an incredible wooden basin, an incredible wall (one of the steepest possible thing in the east), one quite interesting narrow shot, one super nice intermediate trail in a tunnel of trees, the very best glade of the ski area and finally, a super nice long steep pitch. Do I need to say that this part of the mountain always have the best "lifted" ski conditions in the Townships (or even southern Quebec)? (not counting I forgot other backcountry possibilities) <BR> <BR>So all that to say that if they would do a competition bump trail in a place tough to access, it should remain optimal for you all the time, as it's just some real maniacs like you who would reach it. For an intermediate bump run, it's different, it needs to be easily visible, but for an expert run, if it's tough to access, it should remain very good I think and not totally icy as it is often, in the competition bump runs.
 
"IF I CAN'T BE SKIING, AT LEAST I CAN TALK ABOUT IT" <BR> -me <BR> <BR>Is it snowing yet? Anyway, welcome back to joegm! This is all your fault anyway!!! ;-) just kidding! I've been bitchin' about stuff like this at every mountain I've ever skiied! <BR> <BR>"but if there is one thing i would hope would be able to be addressed in the skiing world is the utter lack of respect for mogul skiing.... " <BR> <BR>"why can't bump runs be treated at least 1/2 as well as the precious groomed race runs" <BR> <BR>"the problem is, in my humble opinion, his bosses will not allocate the resources to do it, especially when the precious g.s runs have to be taken care of for the race teams or the 40 foot booter table need some work or the pipe need to be cleaned up... ( see the pattern here boys, everyone gets allocated resources...except bumpers...)" <BR> <BR>This is really the heart of the matter Joegm. The racers are easy to count. FSC is cash flow. Other training groups pay for hill space AND tickets. The Park rats are vocal and visable. If you ain't got a park, then you ain't the kids -they won't show. If you ain't got the kids, you don't get mom + dad with the cash. It is very easy to see the benefit to increased allocations to these endeavors. Racing is cheap and fairly easy to support. Flat and Hard - no problem. The park is expensive and very resource intensive. You should see what I have to go through to get the snow and the time that I DO get and it isn't close to what is needed to put together a serious park instead of a "we've got one too" park. So you can imagine how hardit would be to allocate those recources I get if the Park rats weren't so prominent. This is where bump skiing is in a tough spot. Just like you said, you don't see the pros or even the good ones much. They are hunting the challenging conditions. The intermediate bump skiiers don't exist to make their presence felt because, (catch 22) there aren't any blue bump trails to prctice on. The beginning bump skiiers actually don't know how enjoyable bump skiing can be cause their idea of bumps is Suicide Corner between Paulie's Extension and Middle Cannon on a busy Saturday. That's not fun for ANYONE. So they'd rather have it flat. So without the mass of voices demanding bumps, you get responses like: <BR> <BR>"he cannot afford to give up the terrain for a dedicated blue mogul run" <BR> <BR>Interrestingly enough, this was the EXACT response most snowboarders got when requesting a park 8 years ago. <BR> <BR>"but who the hell is responsible then? where does the buck stop?" <BR> <BR>The "buck" stops exactly there. The "buck". That is what mountain mangers listen too. If it makes fiscal scence to do something they will look at it. So at Cannon, here's what needs to happen. <BR> <BR>To change the existing policy of flattening everything, an appeal in the right places, with decent numbers, shold work. You need to let the patrol know that a trail with bumps on it IS skiable, because they control the grooming list. However, you will need to win over the big boss to back up the patrol and give the "flat cat" that mowes on his own, hell. This would probably get two or three half trails, and maybe two full trails without much maintenance. <BR> This will result in bump feilds with good rhythm but their size and softness will depend on mother nature. I think that maintenance of a bump trail should actually be less about the groomers and more about snowmaking. The only time a groomer should "cap" a bump field is if they are rock hard. Otherwise they will just get obliterated. Ideally, a bump trail could be created and maintained WITHOUT a groomer. Lay a base on the trail. A great snowmaking crew can do this without making whales.(unlikely) So push out the whales but don't groom. (Tillers leave a wonderfull carving surface but actually accellerate the formation of ice unless more snow is added periodically.) Once the bease is established, lessen the volume of snow being produced but keep the coverage even. Open the trail. I have never seen bumps form so fast than on an open trail with snow guns going. As the lines form, the guns can be turned off and the skiers will finish the job in the soft snow. When the trail freezes after a thaw or rain, DON'T CALL THE CATS!!! A dusting with the snowguns will fix the trail perfectly. Again keep the volume down but the coverage full. The first bit of snow should be laid down without skiers so it can adhere to the ice but then the skiers will be able to get back on the trail. The maintenance is actually intensive on the snowmakers as they have to keep moving the guns so piles won't fill in the lines. But the cats should stay the hell away. The difficulty is in convincing management to allocate the snowmaking to resurface the trail after a thaw when all the trails need it too. I'd rather wait my turn than see it flattened. For those trails without snowmaking...SKI IT ANYWAY!! DON'T BE A WOOS! SUCK IT UP! YOU CALL YOURSELF A SKIIER? TRAILS NEVER USED TO HAVE SNOW BLOWN ALL OVER THEM! Actually, they will recouperate. The regularly spaced troughs will catch blown snow and help to resurface the trail as people ski it. If they get groomed, the snow will blow right off (see Taft) and the lines will never return. <BR> In order to convince them that this is the approach they should take, the management will need to see that it is worth the allocation of resources. ***THIS IS THE KEY*** Enough people need to let the mountain know that they want bump trails and that they want them maintained for the bosses to say hmmmm. I am going to make sure that this thread gets printed out and given to the big wigs. We need to be as loud and numerous as we can to make these changes. That means introducing yourself to the highest mangement person you can find and let 'em have it. Nat is a good target at Cannon. He is one of the Marketing staff so you need to make sure he sends your message up the line. Tell them what you want, and as we continue to discuss here, how they can do it without having to put out too much. Remember, the skidders pay the bills. NOT the bumpers. But if they see a benefit to it, they'll do it.
 
joegm, in regards to racing vs. bumps, please remember for racers it's very hard to get "gate time." when i raced in high school and college, i practiced technique more out of the course than in the course. bump skiers can almost always find at least one bump run at every hill. but not every hill will have gates... PLUS if they do you need to pay to use them (in addition to a lift ticket). <BR> <BR>having raced and then turned to bumps, i think they are both equally challenging to do well. i've seen a lot of BAD racers even after years of training. after 7 years myself, i was never better than "middle of the pack" outta the lowliest college ranks, despite my technique improving 100 fold. i don't think you can compare until you've tried both. i have, they are both equally very difficult disciplines that require dedication and hard work. <BR> <BR>also... the ruts are NEVER fixed during a race or practice. during practice, gates are changed so racers try a different course and stop retaining memorization, not to clear ruts. in a matter of fact, young men almost ALWAYS ski last in races i've been in which means even the first man deals with ruts and scraped conditions after the women have raced. practicing in that stuff makes you a better racer. <BR> <BR>also regarding racing, they DO start racers off on competition pitch hills. avy isn't used for racing. gary's is, so is rocket. when i trained in college, we started off not doing gates. but the first gates we did were on a race pitched trail. <BR> <BR>i'm all for having a blue square bumper or two. they are very fun and help with the technique as you can focus more on it. i think two half groomed blues would be the ticket. a dedicated blue square bump run is outta the question from a management and intermediate skiers' point of view. for cannon, half bumps on rocket would be excelllent. most blue squares at cannon just aren't do-able for bumps since they are main veins or twisty and narrow. cannon is really limited by layout to invest in a dedicated blue square bumper. although, you raise an interesting point in that you don't see competition bump lines any where. but there's no demand for that, even i really don't care about a competition styled bump line.
 
Hello all,... great discussion going on here! <BR> <BR>It may seem strange at first, but I think that the lack of blue trails dedicated to moguls, especially at Cannon, could be due to a lack of true green runs. <BR> <BR>Basically, all resorts tend to try catering to every type of skier, and compete mainly on ameneties and price ranges. They have got to do this because most skiers tend to ski with friends, who will often be of same socio-econ. class but not the same skiing level. Hence, resorts have to have a product offering that is as broad as possible. <BR> <BR>In that product offering, green runs are extremely important - not just for beginners, who will often need only a short lift at the base during the 1-3 days before they become intermediate - but also to intermediate and advanced skiers, who can ski good pitches and long trails, but who'll get tired rapidly or simply don't want to get challenged in any way. <BR> <BR>So if you don't have that T2B green run you need, you don't have much choice but to dedicate a steeper run to that big chunk of the public. But as steeper runs get icy and scrapped faster, you'll need more acreage of steep runs to get the same result a good green could have done. And that's how you end up with having all blue runs flattened. <BR> <BR>And with all those babyboomers keeping active but becoming older, I think the pressure for grooming will only grow . <BR> <BR>So it's time we stand up for what we believe and ask for the green runs the masses deserve!!! <BR> <BR>O.k. that was a joke but still, I think that it's the key to the problem. Some resorts -for various reasons- are strugling to cater to all the market, cause their actual terrain can't answer everybody's needs (think Bretton woods & Okemo for lack of expert terrain, Cannon & Jay for lack of long green stuff), and unless they remedy that situation, they'll do strange things to actual terrain. <BR> <BR>Still, of course, it's possible to argue for half-grooming, but it'll never be the same as finding yourself in a run with with only bumps in front of you, with nothing to do but ski them till your legs scream for a stop. Anyway, I wish you luck, Cannon skiers. <BR> <BR>Oh! BTW, Valinouët, Qc has bump-dedicated blue runs. So dedicated, in fact, that the trail map indicates its bumps. I guess that being in a region with no thaws during winter helps commit to bump skiing...
 
If you look to the trail map of Mt Blanc, Max, you'll see that #2 : Boulevard and #33 : Beaujolais are some blue runs and they have bumps on the trail map... and on the mountain of course. But what a shit mountain anyway. I didn't know the Vali had the same <BR> <BR>Max.... I think you have a solid point !!! <BR> <BR>Effectively, by memory, there is no long beginner trails at Cannon, so it shouldn't help a lot for the intermediate bump run. On a local perspective, it's a little bit the same thing for la Réserve. From the top, there is just 1½ beginner / Intermediate trail to reach the lower mountain. Curiously, there is almost nothing ungroomed on the lower part. They would also really need to have some green terrain on top. Bad news for them, it would be almost impossible without installing a new chairlift on a new side. <BR> <BR>But coming back on Cannon, I second the point of Max. If there was some real green terrain T2B, they could possibly do some blue mogul trails ! Any idea on where to put a wide T2B green trail ?
 
frank, there aren't many greens at cannon but there are a few. the peabody slopes are accessable by a triple which service about four green trails. plus, the expansion toward mittersill (not actually on mittersill) should produce about 3 greens i think. and they have a beginner trail and lift pretty much on the parking lot.
 
River : Yep, this is a good thing for the beginners, but many beginners and intermediate skiers would certainly like to ski down all the mountain on an easy trail. Also, they probably think that a triple chairlift is hard to take, compared to a high-speed quad or even a tram. For the new quad, if it's really slow, this will be good... if it is enough fast (it is not detachable), it won't be so good for the beginner skiers that will always prefer the easy lift to enter it. So if I think the beginner new trails will be good for the beginner terrain, I don't think it will help a lot, for the intermediate bump runs. (I hope to mistake !)
 
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