Driving to ski East vs. flying to ski West

[Patrick]

Whatever he's saying, it's wrong... for the reasons I mentioned a page earlier. His armchair quarterbacking about skiing on the East Coast is about as relevant to us as when he tells you which aspects you should have been skiing at Alta/Snowbird.

Nothing personal, Tony.

Same here.

You seem to have forgotten something Tony, although I would love to ski more East, West, Alps and SA...I'm limited by work and family obligations. I have two girls. The oldest plays Harp which unfortunately is held on Saturdays, limiting somewhat our ability to move around much on most weekend. Sure I could go myself to NE every weekend and leave the girls to my wife, but I can't expect my wife to always to care of the activities. There is a shitload of birthdays parties in the girls social calendar as well. I don't have to explain to this to many of you that have young kids. I can't also entirely focus skiing with my oldest kids, while the youngest doesn't get the quality ski instruction from her dad. :mrgreen:

That being said, let's see what the numbers say...

There are so many vacations days that I can take at a time. Plus I make out West or the Alps every two years on average since I moved to Ottawa in 1995. :roll: This year's injury and other issues conspired against me.

I'm aware of Patrick's DL time this season. Comments are based upon Patrick's general pattern since the streak began 44 months ago.

Okay, so let's remove this season out of the equation and look only at the start of the streak.

Here are the overall numbers since my streak began October 2005 to September 2008. I also mentioned awhile ago why I didn't go out West in 2007 although it was planned and ticket was about to be booked.

Excluding this season:

Average/season for the first three season of the streak:

Ski days: 60 (11 night skiing).

I'll remove night skiing for the numbers due that almost all my night skiing is done during the midweek that I work and don't need a day off. So here is the breakdown of an average season of 49 daylight days...

Ottawa local: 26% - 12.7 days
QC non-local: 13% - 6.3 non-local QC days (Laurentians to the Gaspe. ex: Tremblant, MSA, Chic Chocs)

Thus it surprises me that he's not in NVT more often.

NE/NY: 27% - 13.3 days per season

So from what I see, I actually ski more days in NE/NY than local hills - Strike 1

And he does fly away from the East for destination skiing. But it's in the Southern Hemisphere for his streak rather than the cheaper and higher quality skiing he could get in interior BC or France.

West: 23% - 11 days
SA: 11% - 8 days
Tony is wrong again - Strike 2

Tony said on April 6th regarding late season in the East this year.

Killington: May 2

I don't think anything lift served lasts that long this year unless they planned ahead for it. So it looks like Killington changed policy and stockpiled snowmaking (they claim 10 feet) on Superstar.

Tony was wrong here again. Kmart, Jay, Loaf, Bush and MSS all made it to May this year. - STRIKE 3 - YOU'RE OUT!!! :lol: :wink:

Patrick wins!!! :mrgreen: :snowball fight:

And in case someone asks if I keep any stats on my sex life? No, I don't ...I never have. =; O :-" I only keep numbers on my ski days...and concerts...and music I own. But skiing is the only one that is a small database.

 

[rfarren]

Why are the easterners flying west at 7AM vs. ~6PM the night before? Maybe one extra night lodging cost (cheap if in SLC or west side of Denver) but a full day of skiing first day and a night's sleep at intermediate altitude first.

I normally leave thursday morning, because that way I can work a full wednesday. Whereas if I leave the day before I lose 2 days of work. The only time I hit northern vermont (drive), is when I have a bunch of days off and I can just stay in Burlington. I normally do this during the last week of winter break and the first week of january. I chose to do this rather than go to Utah because I really like burlington... it has a better breakfast than SLC. :wink:

 

[Tony Crocker]

The only time I hit northern vermont (drive), is when I have a bunch of days off and I can just stay in Burlington

More confirmation that NYC-NVT is not viable for weekends/short notice powder. A day is consumed just getting there, same as flying west.

The reason many of us take morning flights to Utah has nothing to do with cost. It's burning a half work day.

VS. burning half a ski day. 6 of one vs. half a dozen of the other.. I know every work situation is different, but lots of places will let you come in at 7AM and leave earlier. If you're chained to your desk until 6PM+, life is more difficult. But if your schedule is that rigid, you really can't expect to score next morning powder within drive distance more than once in a blue moon. All the more reason these necessarily structured trips should be West rather than East.

Tony said on April 6th regarding late season in the East this year.....Tony was wrong here again. Kmart, Jay, Loaf, Bush and MSS all made it to May this year.

I listened to most of you whine all March about how lousy the eastern skiing was, plus joegm predicting premature collapse of his favored spring mogul season. I was the one saying "The eastern season as a whole is above average; percents open in late March are still pretty high." It was mostly your eyewitness commentary that made me believe lift service couldn't possibly last as long as in the previous 2 stellar springs.

As I recall during the period of the streak, Patrick has been West during the winter twice: 2 weeks Montana/Wyoming/Utah in 2006 and 1-2 weeks (not sure how long) to Shames/Smithers in 2008. During that same time he's been alone on streak-related summer trips 1 week Mammoth 2006, 2 weeks Chile 2007 and 2+ weeks Chile/Argentina 2008. I ignore PNW 2006 which was a family trip with just a few days skiing.

I avoided the specific family issues in the previous post. But since Patrick decided to bring them up :stir:

Sure I could go myself to NE every weekend and leave the girls to my wife, but I can't expect my wife to always to care of the activities.

Is this somehow less of a problem during the extended SA trips? Which also cost much more than the NE/BC alternatives?

I can't also entirely focus skiing with my oldest kids, while the youngest doesn't get the quality ski instruction from her dad.

Kids are 5 years apart. When oldest is teenage/college age, the youngest will make up the difference. The question can easily be reversed. Is the older kid not allowed a destination trip to a "real mountain" until 5 years after she's capable? Or maybe the younger one doesn't get any destination trips after the older one has left for college? Now they can both be shortchanged equally! Good thing they are not 10 years apart!

 

[Patrick]

I listened to most of you whine all March about how lousy the eastern skiing was.

Cannot remember exactly what you were saying, if it was that we were having a great year or simply an above average year. We, at least I, simply stated that it hadn't snow in 2 months.

plus joegm predicting premature collapse of his favored spring mogul season.

Although I respect joe's opinion, I've rarely seen any positive posting from him.

As I recall during the period of the streak, Patrick has been West during the winter twice: 2 weeks Montana/Wyoming/Utah in 2006 and 1-2 weeks (not sure how long) to Shames/Smithers in 2008. During that same time he's been alone on streak-related summer trips 1 week Mammoth 2006, 2 weeks Chile 2007 and 2+ weeks Chile/Argentina 2008. I ignore PNW 2006 which was a family trip with just a few days skiing.

So, what is your point? Was Mammoth in June 2005 streak related? Trip to SA are great (great quality/price ratio in my books), streak on-line or not. Each SA trip were 15 days.

I avoided the specific family issues in the previous post. But since Patrick decided to bring them up :stir:

Sure I could go myself to NE every weekend and leave the girls to my wife, but I can't expect my wife to always to care of the activities.

Is this somehow less of a problem during the extended SA trips? Which also cost much more than the NE/BC alternatives?

Less in happening late August/early September on the home front AND work. Without getting into the specific of my job, election are rarely called when the house isn't sitting. I've complained in the pass and living in the situation were a normal week vacation isn't being approved due to the perceived risk of an election being called.

The question can easily be reversed. Is the older kid not allowed a destination trip to a "real mountain" until 5 years after she's capable? Or maybe the younger one doesn't get any destination trips after the older one has left for college? Now they can both be shortchanged equally!

:dead horse:

Note to Tony: my first trip out West was in June 88, I was turning 23. First trip in the Alps, 2 years later. Did I feel short changed? When I was 11, I didn't move around much. No. I'm pretty sure that my kids will make their first days out West and/or Alps before that age.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

The stories above confirm all of my speculation about how difficult it is for easterners in the metro areas to nail the NVT powder days. The JSpin, powderfreak TR's are great, but they are about as relevant to a NYC skier as admin's powder days are to me. I can drive to SLC in 10-11 hours of cruise control. With fresh snow, NYC to Stowe is probably rather similar in time and much more nerve wracking.

I'm a perfect test case of Tony's specious calculations. I live 15 miles due west of Manhattan. Two years ago, when NVT had a mid-April storm call, I left my house at 4 am sharp and drove through pretty unpleasant conditions -- pouring rain in NYS, CT, and MA, followed by wet, mostly unplowed snow once I hit the VT state line. I stopped five times, drove 20 mph for a while, and still got there in less than seven hours.

Here is the TR from that day:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3138

I stayed overnight at a friend's in Morrisville, skied at Sugarbush the next day, then drove home:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3139

While Patrick would make that drive without thinking twice, seven hours of mostly white-knuckle driving generally isn't something that I'd do on a regular basis (and I'm sure the Utards find it really laughable), so the remark about the relevance of conditions in NVT to NYCers has some truth to me.

Still, if you have some flexibility (I had just been laid off), NVT is an option... not one without challenges, but for NYC-area powder hounds who don't milk the FF-mile game as conscientiously as me (they come in handy to make last-minute SLC audibles like I did two months ago), NVT has to be kept in play. They should know that Tony's supposition about it taking 10-11 hours to drive from the NYC area to Stowe or MRV during bad weather is off the mark by a few hours.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I have friends in Morristown NJ who are in a ski club with a house at MRG and they have literally a hundred stories of that trip taking over 8 hrs and white knuckle the whole way.

This is the quote that made me think 10 hours to Stowe or 11 to Jay in bad weather from NYC metro. Whatever. The 8 hours of white knuckle driving will deter all but the most determined, and might have some effect upon the survivors' ski stamina once they get there.

You pretty much have to live close enough and be flexible enough that you can drop everything and go skiing when your cell phone rings at 9:00 with that "get up here" call.

Bingo. JSpin has expressed similar sentiments.

Cannot remember exactly what you were saying, if it was that we were having a great year or simply an above average year.

I consistently said "above average."

This year was above average because you actually had some decent skiing in December when there are a lot of years you do not, there were no thaws or rain events in January, and the 6-foot storm cycle in February is not chopped liver even by Alta standards. There were rain/freeze events at Christmas and just before President's week, which I'm sure stick in some people's minds. But knowledgeable FTO easterners are not bound by the calendar; thus through late February there was a higher proportion than normal of good weekends from what I read here. If March continues to suck, there will be marginal skiing at best in April and I suspect the overall will be about average.

Since my prediction for April turned out to be too pessimistic, "above average" seems accurate. I have the eastern snow data now and many more areas are above average than below.

Trip to SA are great (great quality/price ratio in my books)

They may be great as adding new ski areas, experiencing different cultures, etc. That's why on my 5 Southern Hemisphere trips I've spent less than half the days skiing. But to compare purely on the basis of ski quality with interior British Columbia, no way. I've been skiing there 12x since 1997, and 11 of those trips were far superior to any of the southern trips. Price is similar if you do some cat skiing, considerably less if you stick with lift service. And if you get a big dump you're getting face shots in the trees in B.C. vs. cooling your heels in your hotel in SA wondering when they will get around to opening the lifts.

Bottom line: In the seasons I've chosen to go south, those trips have been in addition to, not instead of the winter trips to B.C.

 

[Marc_C]

I have friends in Morristown NJ who are in a ski club with a house at MRG and they have literally a hundred stories of that trip taking over 8 hrs and white knuckle the whole way.

This is the quote that made me think 10 hours to Stowe or 11 to Jay in bad weather from NYC metro. Whatever. The 8 hours of white knuckle driving will deter all but the most determined, and might have some effect upon the survivors' ski stamina once they get there.

Their drive should normally take about 5 hrs. It depends. There are far more winding, slow, 2-lane roads involved in going from Morristown, NJ to the base of MRG than there are going from NYC to a motel in Stowe. But, just like "L.A.", "NYC Metro" encompasses a huge area, and you need to include the suburbs in this discussion. The optimal route to a given destination is drastically different depending on where you are in the NYC Metro area. For example, Morristown NJ and Brooklyn NY are both about the same time - ~6+hrs - to Stowe, but the route from Brooklyn spends more time on interstates. You can't just arbitrarily add x hrs based on weather and apply it to the entire NYC Metro/suburban area.

 

[Tony Crocker]

But, just like "L.A.", "NYC Metro" encompasses a huge area

Very true. Presumably Westchester County has the same advantages I do of having Friday rush hour behind you instead of in front of you when you're heading to the mountains.

You can't just arbitrarily add x hrs based on weather

Maybe it's multiply by y percent (8/5?). Interstates in snow are no picnic either. I've seen I-80 over Donner Summit grind to a halt for hours at a time. The point remains that most powder-worthy storms in New England will affect 50+% of the driving miles from the metro areas.

 

[rfarren]

But, just like "L.A.", "NYC Metro" encompasses a huge area

Very true. Presumably Westchester County has the same advantages I do of having Friday rush hour behind you instead of in front of you when you're heading to the mountains.

I think it would be better to be in Jersey. If you can avoid a bridge that's a huge help. Westchester, albeit north, forces you to take the tappan zee, and take the sawmill for a bit, which can be a bit of a pain. It also depends where in westchester county you are: i.e. east or west. Personally, I try my best to avoid 91 and 89. I think it's a waste of time to head so far east just to go back west. I think from the NYC Metro area 87 is probably your best bet to get up north quickly.

I keep my ski stuff at my parents place on the Upper West Side so I'm heading out from northern Manhattan. If I leave around 7:00 on friday the traffic is generally ok. It only gets a bit annoying on the big weekends like presidents day, when 87 gets a bit crowded but clears up significantly once you're past the Catskills. Generally, 87 is a pretty fast moving road.

 

[Marc_C]

You can't just arbitrarily add x hrs based on weather

Maybe it's multiply by y percent (8/5?). Interstates in snow are no picnic either. I've seen I-80 over Donner Summit grind to a halt for hours at a time.

Nor can one ignore elevation. Donner Summit is...what?...7000-something?...and the highest peak in NE is 6281' while the highest point on an interstate in NE is....maybe 1200', if that?

 

[Tony Crocker]

Donner Summit does get 400 inches a year, most of it during intense storms of 2+ inches/hour. We know it doesn't snow that much back East, but if it's snowing over a broad area with 200+ miles of each Interstate in question, how clean can the roads be kept? I guess it depends upon how many resources each state wants to devote. Comments here indicate NH (famous for low taxes!?) does the best job.

 

[jasoncapecod]

I agree with Rob's points on driving. I live west of the Hudson. I find 87 to have the best road conditions and traffic. For the Catskills ,Dacks and S.VT resorts 87 is the way to go. For Stowe and points north. 95 to 91to 89 is my best option. The drive to Stowe is 95% highway..
By the way, all bets are off on Friday..

 

[jamesdeluxe]

. For Stowe and points north. 95 to 91to 89 is my best option. The drive to Stowe is 95% highway...

Yep, on the aforementioned trip to Stowe in 2007, I crossed the Tappan Zee and did the Merritt to 91 to 89 route. I can't imagine any worse driving weather than what I encountered, and I still made it in less than seven hours.

 

[Bushwacker1951]

The first thing I noticed about Colorado skiing is it similarities with Quebec skiing. The concentration of ski areas on a interstate-autoroute corridor next to the proximity to a big metro area (Denver and Montreal). Traffic issues are probably very similar also. Late Sunday afternoon/evening gridlock.

Actually most of the resorts are not on I70 but since it is the only way out of the mountains for a large part of the state many skiers/riders end up on I70 and they were there pre-I70. I could be wrong but I don't remember I70 when we drove to Vail in 1969 from Denver.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Actually most of the resorts are not on I70 but since it is the only way out of the mountains for a large part of the state many skiers/riders end up on I70.

I think that was his point... even if they're not directly on I-70, most aren't far from it:
http://www.skireport.com/googlemap/?regionid=87

 

[Admin]

http://www.skireport.com/googlemap/?regionid=87

<ahem!>
http://www.firsttracksonline.com/index. ... lay&pid=17

 

[jamesdeluxe]

#-o

 

[Bushwacker1951]

Just clarifying that most of the resorts in CO are not on I70

The first thing I noticed about Colorado skiing is it similarities with Quebec skiing. The concentration of ski areas on a interstate-autoroute corridor.

 

[Marc_C]

Actually most of the resorts are not on I70 but since it is the only way out of the mountains for a large part of the state many skiers/riders end up on I70.

I think that was his point... even if they're not directly on I-70, most aren't far from it:
http://www.skireport.com/googlemap/?regionid=87

Gee, I don't know - I count 17 out of 25 that would be accessed from some portion of I-70. :wink: Is that most? O

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Gee, I don't know - I count 17 out of 25 that would be accessed from some portion of I-70. :wink: Is that most? O

That's what I was referring to. Sorry to :dead horse:, but Patrick was pointing out that there are a bunch of ski areas linked to two big cities (Montreal and Denver) by a major highway (and the resulting traffic tie-ups), not whether they actually rub up against them -- obviously, the CO ski areas are way bigger.