Eastern closing thread - 2009-10

[Admin]

Killington has now officially moved up its closing date to this Sunday, April 25.

 

[Geoff]

Killington has now officially moved up its closing date to this Sunday, April 25.

Pretty lame ass. I was out there today. Superstar will easily make May 2nd. I hiked over and skied East Fall. That will also still be good on May 2nd based on how it is now.

They sold their season passes claiming "Early November to Early May". I'll bet I can convince the Vermont AG office to give a 1/6th refund to the spring passes they sold and a 1/26th refund to the rest of the season passes they sold. They have also said early May for next year's season pass and I already bought one so there's no backing out next year, either.

 

[Patrick]

They sold their season passes claiming "Early November to Early May". I'll bet I can convince the Vermont AG office to give a 1/6th refund to the spring passes they sold and a 1/26th refund to the rest of the season passes they sold. They have also said early May for next year's season pass and I already bought one so there's no backing out next year, either.

Geoff, you've been around long enough KMart to see the disconnect between hype and reality. The Beast altitude of the 80s and 90s is long gone...I remember that slogan October to June being around long after the fact. It would seem that they went back to the post 90s situation with a slogan not necessarily fitting to reality.

So when did Kmart finally open? How many weekends different are we talking about. There is one thing about claiming to push for May and having to close due to lack of coverage, it's another if you judge they had enough snow. Of course, 10 days is far away this time of year. If they would use the same coverage/quality that Kmart is making now, my guess is that Killington would have closed prior to June in maybe half the years they actually made it. The years 1985 and 1993 particularly come to mind as strenchy it out as late, no matter how many times you had to take off your skis. On the other hand, 1984, 1992, 1997 were particular good years.

 

[Geoff]

They sold their season passes claiming "Early November to Early May". I'll bet I can convince the Vermont AG office to give a 1/6th refund to the spring passes they sold and a 1/26th refund to the rest of the season passes they sold. They have also said early May for next year's season pass and I already bought one so there's no backing out next year, either.

Geoff, you've been around long enough KMart to see the disconnect between hype and reality. The Beast altitude of the 80s and 90s is long gone...I remember that slogan October to June being around long after the fact. It would seem that they went back to the post 90s situation with a slogan not necessarily fitting to reality.

So when did Kmart finally open? How many weekends different are we talking about. There is one thing about claiming to push for May and having to close due to lack of coverage, it's another if you judge they had enough snow. Of course, 10 days is far away this time of year. If they would use the same coverage/quality that Kmart is making now, my guess is that Killington would have closed prior to June in maybe half the years they actually made it. The years 1985 and 1993 particularly come to mind as strenchy it out as late, no matter how many times you had to take off your skis. On the other hand, 1984, 1992, 1997 were particular good years.

The difference is that the 2009-2010 Killington put "early May" on their season pass product (and on their 2010-2011 season pass product). If Superstar is skiable on May 1, that's a breach of contract. If I'd bought a spring pass that started March 22nd assuming I'd get 6 weekends out of it, I would certainly want 1/6th of my money back. We'll see what the Vermont attorney general's office has to say about it. Killington under ASC and POWDR has been called on a number of things by the AG office. Vermont is really big on enforcing their consumer protection laws.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

The difference is that the 2009-2010 Killington put "early May" on their season pass product (and on their 2010-2011 season pass product).

You're sure that there's no very tiny print following the "early May" promise? I'm sure you're right, but I find it hard to believe that a ski corporation's fleet of lawyers left themselves exposed on something like that. But given Killington's other marketing gaffes over the past few years, who knows.

 

[Marc_C]

The difference is that the 2009-2010 Killington put "early May" on their season pass product (and on their 2010-2011 season pass product).

You're sure that there's no very tiny print following the "early May" promise? I believe you but find it hard to believe that a ski corporation's fleet of lawyers left themselves exposed on something like that.

I agree with James. I'd be very surprised if the clause "conditions and weather permitting" wasn't written on something you signed when you bought the pass.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Geoff, if you pursue this take a bunch of pictures May 1&2 and compare to those on closing weekends some of those other years Patrick mentioned. I do see a difference if they were advertising "early May," particularly for spring passes. In Powdr Corp's first year at Killington they said at the beginning of the season that April 20 would be the end.

As Schubwa said, it's worth making a stink just to get Powdr Corp's attention by giving them bad publicity even if you don't win any refunds.

 

[Geoff]

The difference is that the 2009-2010 Killington put "early May" on their season pass product (and on their 2010-2011 season pass product).

You're sure that there's no very tiny print following the "early May" promise? I'm sure you're right, but I find it hard to believe that a ski corporation's fleet of lawyers left themselves exposed on something like that. But given Killington's other marketing gaffes over the past few years, who knows.

They sold their season passes saying "Early November to Early May, weather and conditions permitting". Last year, they ran into May and on closing day, they had spliced together ribbons to get Skyelark to Bittersweet open and had contiguous snow on Superstar. The way things stand right now, that is what May 2nd will look like this year. If that's what it looks like on May 2nd, I plan to write them a demand letter asking for 1/26th of my money back.

I'm still incredulous that they did this. Their season pass sale for next year ends April 29th. If I'm trying to sell season passes that say "skiing into May", I would do whatever I could to make May. It's one lift. I don't know what they're thinking.

Check out the January/February traffic counter data on the Killington Access Road. (This data is on the Vermont DOT web site)
It pretty much tells the story of the results of their mismanagement:

 

[jamesdeluxe]

If Superstar is skiable on May 1, that's a breach of contract. (...) We'll see what the Vermont attorney general's office has to say about it. Killington under ASC and POWDR has been called on a number of things by the AG office. Vermont is really big on enforcing their consumer protection laws.

I'm curious how subject to interpretation the term "skiable" is.

What has the AG office successfully enforced against Killington?

 

[Patrick]

I'm curious how subject to interpretation the term "skiable" is.

Check the old quotes below...

Geoff, if you pursue this take a bunch of pictures May 1&2 and compare to those on closing weekends some of those other years Patrick mentioned.

Okay, I don't recall the details on some of the specific, but some years you definitely had to walk...a few times before they shutdown. I'm talking years in the 80s and 90s...here are the later years from my experience. Thanks FTO archives (Admin, you need to upload that original pics from the old posts). June 1st 1993 was particularly bad, the ratio distance between walk versus snow was pathetic. Probably 60-65% of Superstar distance (not vert) was walking.

So, don't take my word for it...read some of the late TR from 1999, 2000, 2001 and 2002.

Killington, VT 5/30/99 Triathlon
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3391

It is hard to call what took place on Superstar last saturday, skiing.

Those of us silly enough to enter the Killington Triathlon, were treated to about 300 yards of skiing down a dirty frozen substance, which started about half-way down the trail and ended just before the final pitch. Killington ran the quad for an hour to transport us to the top of the trail where we proceeded to hike down most of the headwall. The bottom of the headwall had a decent size patch of "snow" -- enough for about ten turns. The rest of the upper portion of the trail was green. The actual "ski" portion of the race took place on the largest patch of snow in the middle of the run. The finish line for the this part of the race was at the bottom of the run. At the end of the snow, we were required to carry our equipment to the bottom of the trail while still being timed. Running down the final pitch of Superstar, with all of your equipment in hand may sound like a lot of fun, but, when you still have to get on your mountain bike and then go for a run up and down Snowshed a couple of times, it's not. I am not sure that I trained properly for the "skiing".

Killington, VT 5/22/99
posting.php?mode=quote&f=2&p=18791

We had a couple of free tickets left for Killington, so we decided to go down on Saturday for a few runs. (...)Here is the current situation with Superstar (as of Saturday at <BR>least). You get on the lift with skis in hand (not on feet), ride to the top and walk off. There is no snow above the top of the first steep pitch, and you have to walk down the first steep pitch for about 20 yards, and then you get to where the snow starts. Lots of people were chucking their skis off the lift right near the end of the ride to avoid carrying them down the hill. After I discovered that the edges of my skis were missing in two different places (no idea when that happened), I readily adopted this practice as well. Once you click into your skis, you ski the rest of the first steep pitch, which is well covered, just about the whole width of the trail. Then you ski the flatter middle portion of the trail. The first 50 yards of this actually have a few <BR>rocks showing in the troughs of some of the bumps. At about the 50 yard mark on the flat section (almost exactly where tower 11 is, there is a <BR>two foot strip of dirt that cuts across the whole trail. Many people <BR>were jumping it, but we found that it was narrow enough that you could simply push some snow from above and make a snow bridge across. The remainder of the flat middle section has excellent coverage, no rocks, although the trail is only about half it regular size in width. As you approach the steep pitch near the bottom of the trail, you are forced to the right because that is the only section that has continuous snow. This section is about 3-5 bumps wide for about 10 yards, and things are getting thin there with rocks poking through in almost all of the <BR>troughs. After you pass this bottleneck, the trail widens out again and you can finish off the steep pitch with great cover. After the final steep pitch comes the flatter section toward the bottom and things get narrower again, probably 6-8 bumps wide and on the skiers left of the trail. The coverage here is again great through, and you can follow right down to where the trail flattens out and then you take off your skis and it's about 30-40 yards to the lift (all flat though). The Mayflies are certainly out. The only time they were a problem was when you were skiing and stopped for more than a few moments, then they would start to buzz around you (although they did not seem to be biting). (...)The snow was nice and soft in most spots and it was good bump skiing. Crowds were light, but that may be because it's not ski on / ski off. That may have been my last day this season, but if it was, it was a good one.

Killington, VT 5/27/00
posting.php?mode=quote&f=2&p=19368

The start of the Memorial Day Weekend at Killington required a bit of walking both at the top and the bottom of the Superstar chair. In between, a few gaps in the snow coverage could have mandated walking, but most patrons present (numbering 100-200 in total) chose to ski across the grass in between the patches of snow. Where there was snow, it was plenty deep with significant moguls, although during the course of the day the melting was obvious in some of the thinner spots. The surface was tricky, a mix of heavy wet slush and firm base underneath. It won't last a heckuva lot longer. Here's a photo taken in the afternoon of the 27th above the Snowshed base lodge: <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/580.jpg" ALT="Killington, VT 5/27/00 - photo Marc Guido"> <BR> <BR>

Killington, VT, 5/27/2001
posting.php?mode=quote&f=2&p=19999

The remaining snow was in six pieces, separated by five spots that required walking, if you ever wanted to use your skis again next season. This didn't stop numerous people from skiing across the grass, mud and rocks, some more successfully than others. The greatest hazard on the mountain was the chance of being hit by one of these out-of-control dirt skiers coming out of the fog. The snow was all bumps, of course. The hard corn loosened up in the lines where there was the most skier traffic, but was otherwise very firm. I had to really think twice before taking a second run (or does it count as six more runs?), then I called it a day.

Killington VT 5/29/02
posting.php?mode=quote&f=2&p=20598

The main difference was that while Fri had continuous snow and the chair was ski-on ski-off, today had us carrying our skis on the lift and walking across a large (approx 100') break in the snow just above the lower steep section. Had to get the skis on quick as the walking allows the blackflies to catch up! That was the only gap in the snow, though, and it's holding up pretty well in general, even on the long flat middle section. The headwall has snow almost to the top so the walk from the lift was more 'over to' than 'down to', the snow, and there's about another 100' to walk from the snow to the lift at the bottom.(...) If true, it's kind of a shame as it looks like they could last at least another week going by the 'walking required' threshold of years past, but sadly those parameters seemed to have changed of late (as witnessed by later openings in the fall- this was the first season in many many years that they didn't open in Oct, despite a couple of windows of opportunity). Oh well, considering the lousy snow year it's amazing we made it this far!

 

[Tony Crocker]

Here's admin's pic from 5/27/00:

I believe that pictures during 2003-04 were lost in one of admin's software upgrades(?).

However, any post 2002-03 or prior can get the pics restored by changing syntax from :
><IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/messages/8/580.jpg" >

to:
followed by
[url=http://www.firsttracksonline.com/boards/files/discus/580.jpg]files/discus/580.jpg[/url]
then

Note to admin: Is there any way we can get the picture syntax converted in batch rather than one at a time?

 

[Patrick]

5 different options today until Sunday...get out of the house if you can, get the boards off the wall and ski. Definitely last call for K and MSA. After that, the loaf midweek will be the only liftserved skiing East of the Rockies. Possibly 2 more options the first weekend of May with MSS and Jay.

Quebec:
Mont Ste-Anne - April 25
Mont St-Sauveur - May 2 (if possible) weekend only

VT:
Killington - April 25
Jay - May 2 (if possible) weekend only

ME:
Sugarloaf - May 2

 

[Tony Crocker]

However, any post 2002-03 or prior can get the pics restored...

The lost picture time frame appears to be worse than I expected. I tried to restore some from a May 2003 Killington thread and they are gone.

 

[Patrick]

Fresh snow across this part of the World. Some places got more than others. All have confirmed that they make into May. Jay reopened today. MSS is adding an extra possible weekend.

Jay VT - May 2
Sugarloaf ME - May 2
Mont St-Sauveur QC - May 9 (if possible) - weekend only

From MSS

OPEN THIS WEEKEND
...from 9 am to 4 pm

Skiers and boarders you can rejoice, it will be possible for you to enjoy the mountain for another weekend!

Saturday & Sunday May 1-2 9 am to 4 pm
Saturday & Sunday May 8-9 TO BE CONFIRM

http://www.montsaintsauveur.com/Pages/Heuresdouverture

 

[Patrick]

Mont St-Sauveur, Sugarloaf and Jay Peak offered skiing this weekend, first weekend in May.

Sugarloaf and Jay has raised their game in the late season in the last few years. MSS is still dominating the longest and lastest to close in Eastern Canada.

Sugarloaf and Jay are official done to the season, MSS is still posting the possibility to open next weekend, May 8-9.

MSS website:

Skiers and boarders you can rejoice, it will be possible for you to enjoy the mountain for another weekend

http://www.montsaintsauveur.com/?language=en-US
http://www.montsaintsauveur.com/Pages/Heuresdouverture


Potential (non-hiking turns) for next weekend in the East:

Mont St-Sauveur QC - May 9 (if possible) - weekend only

 

[Tony Crocker]

MSS must have a serious snowmaking system. Low elevation range of 1,300 - 2,000 ft. and a whopping 67 inches of natural snow this season according to the website. I assume with the modest stats it's very close to Montreal.

 

[Patrick]

and a whopping 67 inches of natural snow this season according to the website. I assume with the modest stats it's very close to Montreal.

Told you we didn't have much of a Winter. No deepfreeze, but very few thaws in mid-winter too. It got real hot in mid-March then it got hotter around Easter weekend (80F).

Very close to Montreal? It's the closest Laurentians ski area (minus Avila which is attached to it) which is about 30 miles from the Island of Montreal. And much closer to the upper limit of Montreal North Shore suburbia. Only ski area (not taking about sliding hills which you can ski) closer is Mont St-Bruno on the south shore.

Same logic as snow coverage north of the St.Lawrence Valley or further East. Years of skiing and observations across Quebec always more than often pointed out for better coverage north versus Townships (but less snow totals and storms) + same is true as you move toward Quebec City and deep into Maine (ie. Sugarloaf). (question was asked in another discussion - colder lesser thaws).

 

[Patrick]

Mont St-Sauveur - May 16 (if possible) - weekend only :shock: :shock: :shock:

Well it seems that weather (ie. rain) is the only that might keep Mont St-Sauveur from reopening this weekend. There is even talk about pushing it until the following weekend. Although I'm not a fan of MSS, but I have to congratulate them. Mont St-Sauveur stands alone in longest season category, the competition isn't even close. Their season started on October 18 and now there is talk into pushing it to May 16.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Does MSS stockpile one run like Killington used to do with Superstar? I would presume the length of season would be impossible otherwise. Is it groomed or natural moguls in late season? There was some discussion on one of the Killington threads that too much spring grooming would accelerate the melting out.

 

[Patrick]

Does MSS stockpile one run like Killington used to do with Superstar? I would presume the length of season would be impossible otherwise.

I haven't been at MSS in full season since I moved to Ottawa, so I wouldn't exactly know. I heard they made a serious amount of snow, but nowhere near what K did on Superstar.

After a very summer like temps Spring, we moved into colder temps, so it's probably helping. Mind you, that MSS did massive snowmaking to survive October and the very warm November, so that probably helped. So they aren't opening for this weekend, however the forecast isn't too promising (cold and rain). I haven't really checked.

Is it groomed or natural moguls in late season? There was some discussion on one of the Killington threads that too much spring grooming would accelerate the melting out.

TRs with pics from Zoneski, so you can see the evolution. Terrain is pretty smooth, unlike Superstar. The final pitch is steeper, but not rocky like Superstar.

May 1st:
http://www.zoneski.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=12412

And the previous weekend.

April 24th:
http://www.zoneski.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=12396

And from Frankontour on April 25th:

http://www.zoneski.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=12400