Europe 26/27

Planning on travelling to the European Alps from Australia for 20 days skiing beginning 13th of January. I have been trawling ski forums for years on end. I just discovered this gem of a website.
I subscribe to the practice of booking accommodation as per the best and forecast ski conditions.
Just having problems choosing which air port to land.
I’ll be travelling by public transport with my 18 year old daughter. We travel light under 25Kg per person with all of our own equipment.
I enjoy Austria for the snow and ease of transport. I would love to check out the French resorts.
Too tight to cough up the money for Switzerland.
A little put off regarding snow surety in Italy.
Thinking Zurich is great for all of Austria and some of Switzerland. I could be forced to open my wallet for a week if I could score some budget accommodation.
Geneva looks great for France and again some of Switzerland.
Thanks in advance.
 
There are lots of Euro reports in this forum. In terms of an overall overview, I this thread should get you started.

20 days skiing beginning 13th of January
I’ll be travelling by public transport with my 18 year old daughter.
That's a long enough trip that you can follow the methodology that James, ChrisC and I use. In 20 days you will be going to multiple destinations. This calls for renting a car for flexibility as all of us here do. It also means that you should not reserve anything other than the airfare and the car in advance. Arriving Jan. 13 avoids any holidays and you will be able to score lodging at the last minute. The Alps are erratic for both weather and conditions; that's why you want to start thinking about destinations as the season unfolds and also the weather forecasts starting a week or so before you arrive.

Zurich is great for all of Austria and some of Switzerland. I could be forced to open my wallet for a week if I could score some budget accommodation.
Geneva looks great for France and again some of Switzerland.
Yes it's a tossup between Zurich and Geneva, but don't sweat it, as driving distances are compact vs. Australia or North America. You can still drive to the opposite end of the Alps from your gateway airport in less than 2 days if that's where the conditions are better. We flew to Geneva in both 2018 and 2019. Two days later we were in the Dolomites in 2018 and St. Moritz in 2019.
 
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Planning on travelling to the European Alps from Australia for 20 days skiing beginning 13th of January. I have been trawling ski forums for years on end. I just discovered this gem of a website.
I subscribe to the practice of booking accommodation as per the best and forecast ski conditions.
Just having problems choosing which air port to land.
I’ll be travelling by public transport with my 18 year old daughter. We travel light under 25Kg per person with all of our own equipment.
I enjoy Austria for the snow and ease of transport. I would love to check out the French resorts.
Too tight to cough up the money for Switzerland.
A little put off regarding snow surety in Italy.
Thinking Zurich is great for all of Austria and some of Switzerland. I could be forced to open my wallet for a week if I could score some budget accommodation.
Geneva looks great for France and again some of Switzerland.
Thanks in advance.
Arriving in Milan is a good general compromise but it's a bit harder to get winter tyres which might be worth thinking about at that time of year. For a couple of reasons we gravitate to the French end of the Alps. In my experience there is no need to pre-book accommodation at that time of year.
You'll get winter rubber if you rent a car out of Geneva.
 
Greetings. Finally got approved for membership here. Really appreciate the banter and data points that are here. Been a long time TGR member, based in SoCal, ski Mammoth 50 to 60 days per yr, have 3 ski racing kids. Lucky enough to have lived in London for a couple of years and skied all over the Alps. (La Grave, Cham, Val d'Isere, 3V, Arlberg, Zermatt, Verbier, Andermatt, Hintertux, Portes du Soleil, etc. )

I will be taking oldest (turned 18 today) to the Alps either week of March 6th or 13th this year. St. Anton historically is our favorite (skied waist deep there at least 5 times, got snowed in there w/ a toddler and twin newborns back in 2011 or 2012), but generally like it more in January when South facing terrain stays better longer so thinking about other zones for this trip. Looking at Cham for a few days (figure blow this mind w/ Midi after 3 yrs skiing NH FIS ice) then following the snow. which I haven't done in 20+yrs in the Alps. What's everyone's goto method of last minute B&B reservations since in my dated experience many B&B's aren't necessarily online instant bookable?

Debating the guide deal in various places. In my past I have done the Glacier Rond w/ friends, I guided friends down Vallee Blanche we did it so many times 20 yrs ago, but know it has all changed so won't be doing that this trip. Have all the gear, but need the local knowledge. My challenge is I find it only makes sense to get a guide if it has snowed in the last 4ish +/- days so I hate booking in advance. St. Anton is easy to roll into ski school and get one for the next day if it's looking good (did it last year w/ a buddy to show him Valluga Nord while in Arlberg w/ 82yr old dad!) and want to get further afield, not sure about say Verbier, Courmayour, Alagna, Engelberg to use a few examples. Any tips appreciated. Can you just email / roll into guides office the day before? Chances of having a guide free mid March during a weekday?

I 2nd the discussion about Stockhorn in Zermatt either never being open/accessible anymore. That zone is one of the main reasons to visit Zermatt for good skiers. Used to love lapping it via Rote Nase and Gant trams. Sooo long and sustained. Have the best memories of doing that back in say 2002ish...

How many people travel with touring equipment? I typically haven't since so much is lift accessible...

Pray for snow!
 
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I think James and I both tend to use booking.com for Euro lodging.

ChrisC is an excellent source about Euro guides. We tend to think about guides once we have locked in lodging. So a couple of times (Arlberg 2013 and Val d’Isere 2018) that has been far in advance, but Monterosa and Engelberg were only reserved for lodging about a week ahead so that’s when the guides must have been reserved.

The attractively priced group guides in France can sell out.

Your son is in high school in NH while you are in SoCal?

Our powder skis have Market AT plate bindings. Some Euro guides like you to have touring capable skis. They do not require AT boots and you can rent skins.
 
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Thx!

Have some older pow skis w/ Marker Duke's which is what I'm guessing you are referencing?

Yup, He grew up on Mammoth ski team, decided to move to NH for sophomore yr so he could keep ski racing, but also go to school and keep playing soccer, music, etc. Tough to race FIS living in SoCal.

Love all the TR's here. Great info! Always appreciated your data on snow Tony, followed your site for a long time.
 
I have Marker Barons on the old Black Diamond Verdicts that went to Antarctica. That trip does require AT boots. My DPS skis came equipped with Look plate bindings if you want them.

You are right about ski racing in SoCal. Adam placed 8th of 30 for UCSD in his first college race in the SoCal league when he had last raced at age 9 in NASTAR. He was second overall for the season as a senior and finally won the league as a grad student at San Diego State a couple of years later.
 
Look plate bindings? Can't say I remember those? Very generous offer thx. Will think about my quiver as the trip gets closer as I will have to figure out a setup for Mini Comish.

Yeah I have used my old Atomic Atlas w/ Duke's. Have taken those to AK, St. Anton, etc. Might find some bindings to put on a pair of QST 106's I have sitting in the Mammoth garage.

I love my race boots, but not my touring boots and really don't want to bring 2 sets of boots so think the plate bindings is a good call, even though they weight a ton.

NH FIS is tough. Going from being top 5 or 10 in Far West to not finishing any tech races made for a frustrating yr. Only finished his first 1 DH (Sugarloaf) and the SG races this year. It's kinda crazy to see a girl who raced in his Tahoe races get a WC start last year and one of his Tahoe buddies was a foreran the Birds of Prey last yr.
 
Greetings. Finally got approved for membership here. Really appreciate the banter and data points that are here. Been a long time TGR member, based in SoCal, ski Mammoth 50 to 60 days per yr, have 3 ski racing kids. Lucky enough to have lived in London for a couple of years and skied all over the Alps. (La Grave, Cham, Val d'Isere, 3V, Arlberg, Zermatt, Verbier, Andermatt, Hintertux, Portes du Soleil, etc. )

I will be taking oldest (turned 18 today) to the Alps either week of March 6th or 13th this year. St. Anton historically is our favorite (skied waist deep there at least 5 times, got snowed in there w/ a toddler and twin newborns back in 2011 or 2012), but generally like it more in January when South facing terrain stays better longer so thinking about other zones for this trip. Looking at Cham for a few days (figure blow this mind w/ Midi after 3 yrs skiing NH FIS ice) then following the snow. which I haven't done in 20+yrs in the Alps. What's everyone's goto method of last minute B&B reservations since in my dated experience many B&B's aren't necessarily online instant bookable?

Debating the guide deal in various places. In my past I have done the Glacier Rond w/ friends, I guided friends down Vallee Blanche we did it so many times 20 yrs ago, but know it has all changed so won't be doing that this trip. Have all the gear, but need the local knowledge. My challenge is I find it only makes sense to get a guide if it has snowed in the last 4ish +/- days so I hate booking in advance. St. Anton is easy to roll into ski school and get one for the next day if it's looking good (did it last year w/ a buddy to show him Valluga Nord while in Arlberg w/ 82yr old dad!) and want to get further afield, not sure about say Verbier, Courmayour, Alagna, Engelberg to use a few examples. Any tips appreciated. Can you just email / roll into guides office the day before? Chances of having a guide free mid March during a weekday?

I 2nd the discussion about Stockhorn in Zermatt either never being open/accessible anymore. That zone is one of the main reasons to visit Zermatt for good skiers. Used to love lapping it via Rote Nase and Gant trams. Sooo long and sustained. Have the best memories of doing that back in say 2002ish...

How many people travel with touring equipment? I typically haven't since so much is lift accessible...

Pray for snow!
Moment wildcat 108 with atomic shift binding handles most everything. Rent head super shape titans or stockli laser if you get skunked on fresh snow.
Booking.com as mentioned earlier or indie camper and follow the snow (I talk big about this but have yet to try it with the family of 5😳)
If you are simply looking for a way around the resort and slack country/light BC touring, you can always/easily shadow tour and make friends. I found this highly effective at Grand Montets last March.
This site is amazing and Tony et al know everything about ski destinations around the world.
 
I was not meaning to sell the Look bindings. When you order direct from DPS they offer to sell you those bindings if you want them and don’t charge for installation.
 
I will be taking oldest (turned 18 today) to the Alps either week of March 6th or 13th this year. St. Anton historically is our favorite (skied waist deep there at least 5 times, got snowed in there w/ a toddler and twin newborns back in 2011 or 2012), but generally like it more in January when South facing terrain stays better longer so thinking about other zones for this trip.

Yes, agree. The lower resorts start to melt out by mid-March.

St. Anton/Arlberg is one of the (THE?) best, but higher/north-facing resorts would begin to outshine it after a winter of snow accumulation and high alpine terrain now available/covered.

What's everyone's goto method of last minute B&B reservations since in my dated experience many B&B's aren't necessarily online instant bookable?

Email/phone.

Any place with just a web presence, available perhaps only through the tourist office. (Meanwhile, online properties with reasonable rates/walking distance etc will be booked or charge higher rates). A lot of Germanic countries hate credit cards, exchange fees, etc and are still not online. At Anderamtt (attending Freeride Ski Camp 2020), none of the Millennials could find accommodations to stay extra days over the weekend with good conditions. I walked down Main Street and found 2 rooms within 30 minutes. A lot of cheaper, old-school, independent accommodations remain hidden in plain sight. Modern-day influencers cannot find them. They are handicapped by mobile applications and the Internet. Too many suffer trauma from human interaction and need the 'safe space' of a screen.

Typically, you can find something/anything you want in March. Especially midweek.

Verbier is perhaps the most difficult (even compared to St. Moritz/Zermatt), since it was never a valley of inns, but a more modern creation relying on chalets/relatively small. More reasonable places are disappearing.


In my past I have done the Glacier Rond w/ friends,

That's on the to-do list some year - Chamonix facing routes of Aiguille du Midi. My January/February trips are a bit too early for those routes. Need a March/early April visit.
Those are definitely a notch above most expert terrain.


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My challenge is I find it only makes sense to get a guide if it has snowed in the last 4ish +/- days so I hate booking in advance. St. Anton is easy to roll into ski school and get one for the next day if it's looking good (did it last year w/ a buddy to show him Valluga Nord while in Arlberg w/ 82yr old dad!) and want to get further afield, not sure about say Verbier, Courmayour, Alagna, Engelberg to use a few examples. Any tips appreciated. Can you just email / roll into guides office the day before? Chances of having a guide free mid March during a weekday?

LOL - yes, I would like to book 4 days out as well.

You have some issues here:

Instructor - yes, anywhere with the Cash. But there is a downside: typically they will not take you on any glaciated terrain. St. Anton/Arlberg, Avoriza/Portes du Soleil, others - the terrain is not glaciated, so it's go anywhere. Just hiring a local - guide/instructor - who cares?

IFMGA (International Federation of Mountain Guides Association) certification is required for terrain like Verbier's Back of Mont Fort, Courmayeur's Mont Blanc/Pt Helbronner's Toula Glacier, Chamonix's Aiguille du Midi, etc. As you get into the higher western European Alps, a lot of the most desirable terrain will not be available by ski school. I was told specifically by Verbier ski schools/instructors: No, we will not be skiing Mont Fort off-piste in a private!

That said, if you are willing to pay the daily rate, guides could relatively easily be hired a couple of days out. I believe the Guide Office functions as a co-op for independent certified contractors (guides) and maintains uniform pricing and scheduling. Guides only want full days.

Again, near your ski date: all bets are off, and it's a bit of a free-for-all. Groups fall apart, people get sick/injured, trips change --> there is usually some availability. Not guaranteed, but often. Also, some guides may want to work, so they become available. Others accept half-day clients.

When skiing with UK friends/brother, I have hired private guides. I had to get on schedules weeks out at places like Val d'Isere. Chamonix - a week out. Done walk-ups (i.e., new snowfall) at places like Courmayeur and Verbier.

My rough estimate of a full-day guide (up to 8 persons - sometimes discounts are available for smaller groups):
Italy: $500-650
France/Austria: $650-800.
Switzerland: near $1k

My rough estimate of a full-day guided group per person:
$125-$175+

Note: If you hire a guide to do something that requires rappelling, they often can restrict groups to 2 per guide. (Chamonix - Cosmiques/Glacier Rond, Courmayeur - Toula). Merely extreme terrain is limited to 4 per guide. Again, guide relationship/friendship can affect group limits.

Groups are an entirely different animal. They are not always available. Can be found daily at St. Anton, Val d'Isere, Chamonix, and more sporadically at Andermatt, Engelberg, and others.

That said: my UK crew has hired a La Grave guide (friend) who knew the terrain; might have been an old friend/guide in training? (St. Anton? Val d'Isere?), and we were paying well below market. Anyways, he could make his own Genepi (mountain spirit), navigate, and hook people into a harness.
 
Thanks. Good info for everyone.

Aware of the ski instructor / IFMGA situation and glaciers.

When we did the Rond it' didn't need a rappell, just a don't fuckin fall technique :) Definitely one of my top couple routes along with Central off Cody in JH and a steep barrel or 2 in AK. Glad I did it pre-kids. Not sure we are looking to do that this time. I would love to get into the Cosmiques, which I'm sure these days requires a Rap. Back in the day if the snow was deep it didn't, but that was week by week. Skiing the full 9000 to town was one of the more amazing runs! Didn't enjoy the bushwack above the Mt. Blanc tunnel back to town. Wifey was on Brevent with friends as we did it and crossed pathes with Pat K. from old Powder Mag days who did the Rond the day before us in untracked pow!

Re Phone/email to B&B's, this has always been my strategy, it can just be a bit time consuming and slow which if looking for something the next day?

Tony, gotcha on bindings, no worries. I mount all our stuff myself, but man are the plate bindings a pain to free hand and swap. Lotta screws and room to F' up the alignment. Will work on that this winter as it seem that would be a good call for this trip.

Hoping for snow! Mini Comish heads to Saas Fee in 2 weeks to train. Just heard the Zermatt glacier is closed for a couple weeks due to the high temps. No bueno.
 
Aware of the ski instructor / IFMGA situation and glaciers.

I just reacted to your comment, "St. Anton is easy to roll into ski school and get one for the next day".

I didn't really know about the terrain discrepancy between a ski instructor and a guide until recently. I always see "freeride" advertised by ski schools, but never utilized anyone except a guide. Generally, I have specific routes/places I want to get to/ski, and I need a guide's knowledge for navigation, current avalanche conditions, historical weather, danger areas, etc. Or someone to drag my body off the hill.

With topo maps, guide books, and research, I can ski a lot of off-piste terrain myself or with friends. Also, guide services can be used for a day, and you can ask for recommendations for other sectors/routes or repeat some lines.




Some AI-research specifics that contain some truthiness:

Here is a breakdown of the specific terrain examples across these four iconic Swiss resorts, contrasting the open powder faces where an instructor can legally coach you against the high-alpine glacial routes requiring an IFMGA mountain guide

1. Verbier
  • Instructor-Legal (Itinerary Runs): The massive, bumpy front face of Mont Fort or the long, sustained steeps of Tortin and Chassoure. These are marked on the map, secured against avalanches, but completely un-groomed, offering classic freeride coaching terrain.
  • Guide-Only (Glacial/High-Alpine): The Backside of Mont Fort. This route requires navigating complex, un-patrolled glacial fields where hidden crevasses pose a persistent danger, requiring mountaineering ropes and harnesses.

2. Engelberg
  • Instructor-Legal (Open Powder Faces): The Laub. This is a world-famous, perfectly uniform 1,200-meter vertical pitch of open powder. Because it is accessed directly from the lift and does not cross over glacier ice, a high-level freeride instructor is fully qualified to guide you down it.
  • Guide-Only (Active Glaciers): The Steinberg. This route drops directly off the Titlis Rotair cable car onto the active Titlis Glacier. Because of active crevasse hazards, you legally must be tied to an IFMGA guide to navigate it.

3. Andermatt
  • Instructor-Legal (Lift-Adjacent Bowls): The Felsental or Giraldi couloirs dropping off the Gemsstock. These provide deep, steep powder bowls and technical entries that stay clear of active glaciated hazards.
  • Guide-Only (Technical Passes): The Giraffe route or any deep backcountry touring dropping off the back of the Gemsstock toward the Sustenpass.

4. Zermatt
  • Instructor-Legal (High-Alpine Pistes & Marked Itineraries): The massive, wide-open high-altitude runs spanning across the Rothorn, Gornergrat, and the main Matterhorn Glacier Paradise network. Instructors can also take you on marked, yellow itinerary routes like those found around Stockhorn or Rothorn when open.
  • Guide-Only (Glacier Descents & Passes): The legendary Schwarztor descent. This is a spectacular, technical freeride tour dropping from the Klein Matterhorn down a heavily crevassed glacier to Gornergletscher. It requires absolute mountaineering expertise, as does crossing any unmarked boundaries on the upper Theo-dul or Gorner glaciers.

France and Italy operate under entirely different legal frameworks than Switzerland when separating what a ski instructor can do versus a mountain guide. France is exceptionally strict across all terrain, while Italy’s rules are heavily divided by region and strictly mandate safety equipment. [1, 2]

1. France: The Ultimate Restriction
France has the tightest regulations in Europe. There is virtually no distinction between on-piste and off-piste for instructors. Legally, anyone guiding paying clients must hold the absolute highest state qualification (the French Diplôme d’État or a fully recognized foreign Level 4 equivalent with the grueling "Euro-test" speed check).
  • Standard Off-Piste: If an instructor holds that top-tier Level 4 qualification, they can legally take you off-piste almost anywhere.
  • The Glacial Exception: Unlike Switzerland, top-level French instructors can take you onto glaciers (like the Vallée Blanche in Chamonix) as long as it is a classic ski descent that does not require "mountaineering techniques" (i.e., using ropes, ice axes, or climbing harnesses to ascend or rappel). If ropework or climbing is required, it legally defaults to an IFMGA mountain guide.

2. Italy: A Regional Patchwork
Italy handles guiding laws differently, and the regulations can change completely depending on which province you are skiing in.
  • The Law: Under national law, ski instructors can teach off-piste within the ski area boundaries, but the strict legal definition of "high-mountain terrain" belongs exclusively to IFMGA mountain guides.
  • The Regional Divide: In the Aosta Valley (home to Courmayeur and the Toula Glacier), rules are highly regulated but permissive for properly equipped groups. However, in parts of the Veneto/Dolomites region, local laws have historically placed blanket bans on off-piste skiing without a mountain guide.
  • Mandatory Gear Laws: Regardless of whether you are with an instructor or a guide, Italian law (Decree 40/21) mandates that anyone stepping off-piste where there is avalanche risk must carry a transceiver, shovel, and probe, alongside mandatory third-party liability insurance. If you don't have them, the police can fine you and confiscate your lift pass
 
I just learned on Alpinfans that the Swiss ski area of Braunwald will no longer be in operation for downhillers due to profitability challenges. It was a strictly-locals mountain in the canton of Glarus 90 minutes southwest of Zurich airport.

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With an odd primarily intermediate layout and mostly south-facing terrain/associated snow preservation issues (its name means "brown forest"), Braunwald's main draws were gorgeous landscapes, an interesting mix of lifts, and cute chalets. It's the type of place that no one on this forum other than yours truly would consider visiting. I planned to go there in January 2017 but it never happened due to my infamous passport snafu that caused a cancellation of the entire trip.

Some locals are trying to keep at least the main lift for skiers open with its terrain pod groomed but who knows if it'll work out. Oh well, at least there are a fair number of TRs like this one.

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