jasoncapecod
Well-known member
This question was brought up on another forum. I'm curious about everyone else take on the situation.
How will ski areas fare with 5.00/gallon gas
- Thread starter jasoncapecod
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Americans will get used to $4+ gas and continue their same driving habits. Guaranteed.
How is $4 gas different from $3 gas?
How is $4 gas different from $3 gas?
riverc0il
New member
One might also wonder how certain destination resorts will fair because of increases in airfare and add-ons such as charging for multiple checked bags. Gas is significantly upping the cost of travel by air which may also have an effect.
This is a wealthy sport and I am not convinced that four dollars per gallon is going to have much effect. People are still lining up to buy 15-20 MPG SUVs so clearly gas is not a consideration when comparable space family vehicles are available that get much better MPG. Bed base becomes even more important as day trippers may drop off a bit. It will soon become cheaper for me to stay over night at Jay rather than day trip twice in one weekend.
I would be more concerned about other economic impacts. Lots of people having housing issues and credit issues right now and things will continue to get worse before they get better. If you are looking at foreclosure, you are probably not considering going skiing much. People get nervous in general and spend less disposable income.
This is a wealthy sport and I am not convinced that four dollars per gallon is going to have much effect. People are still lining up to buy 15-20 MPG SUVs so clearly gas is not a consideration when comparable space family vehicles are available that get much better MPG. Bed base becomes even more important as day trippers may drop off a bit. It will soon become cheaper for me to stay over night at Jay rather than day trip twice in one weekend.
I would be more concerned about other economic impacts. Lots of people having housing issues and credit issues right now and things will continue to get worse before they get better. If you are looking at foreclosure, you are probably not considering going skiing much. People get nervous in general and spend less disposable income.
Jason - Good idea for a discussion.
Part of my family lives in Germany and skis in Switzerland at least 2x a year. When we visited 3 years ago - we took two cars and filled both up at about $7 a gallon. Over $200 for the first gas up. They didn't think anything of it. They are used to it. We will get used to it too.
One advantage in Europe...gas has been expensive for a long time (taxes) so they've developed infrastructure (mass transit, market for small cars, centralized development) that is more compatible with high energy prices.
And, when 75% of the cost of gas is TAX, as it is in Europe...it doesn't matter that much that oil goes from $50 to $100 a barrel.
Another point...higher energy will probably raise all costs not just driving....snowmaking, lift costs, food in the lodge...on and on.
For us... and this is a wild guess - gas is probably 10% of the cost of skiing. And for me...skiing is second only to family, food and air. I'll ski at $10 a gallon. But I might take fewer, longer trips.
Part of my family lives in Germany and skis in Switzerland at least 2x a year. When we visited 3 years ago - we took two cars and filled both up at about $7 a gallon. Over $200 for the first gas up. They didn't think anything of it. They are used to it. We will get used to it too.
One advantage in Europe...gas has been expensive for a long time (taxes) so they've developed infrastructure (mass transit, market for small cars, centralized development) that is more compatible with high energy prices.
And, when 75% of the cost of gas is TAX, as it is in Europe...it doesn't matter that much that oil goes from $50 to $100 a barrel.
Another point...higher energy will probably raise all costs not just driving....snowmaking, lift costs, food in the lodge...on and on.
For us... and this is a wild guess - gas is probably 10% of the cost of skiing. And for me...skiing is second only to family, food and air. I'll ski at $10 a gallon. But I might take fewer, longer trips.
Marc_C
Active member
I remember from economics 101 that gasoline has a distinctly kinked demand curve. IOW, consumption (demand) is unchanged until some tipping price is hit, then it curtails rapidly. So the question becomes will that be at $4, $5, $6, or $7? The obvious first thing to go is discretionary driving.jamesdeluxe":ynm830jj said:
Harvey44":e3a3hv0b said:
Although you didn't come out and say it, in case anyone wants to draw a comparison, well...there is none between Europe and the U.S. in this respect. Europe is a relatively small, dense population area. It's darned near impractical to try to apply the European transportation model to the spread-out U.S. anywhere but along the east coast.
riverc0il
New member
I kept meticulous records of every dollar I spent on ski season this year (excepting food costs since a man's gotta eat one way or the other) and am currently on track to have fuel costs total exactly half of my season costs. That total is somewhat loaded because it will include my earned turn skiing as well. Take out the earned turn and gas factored in about one third compared to two thirds lift ticket and season ticket costs. When the average skier is seeing 50% gas prices for season costs, things will change pretty quickly, but that is like, what.... three or four years away :lol:Harvey44":fnbhzgdp said:
For the average and typical vacationing family, fuel costs are still by far the least expensive part of the trip when you start totaling up lift tickets, food, lodging, equipment, lessons, apres-ski, resort amenity extras, etc. for four people. Even done on the cheap, $50 round trip gas price for a SUV sized family driving to a place within three hours of home really isn't that bad compared to the total cost of a weekend.
Admin":1y8hkjz6 said:
It's true that Europe as a whole is smaller than the US. And you're right the area from Boston to DC...could have a lot more mass transit than it does and that would solve a big part of the problem.
Related to skiing...I wonder what the average distance driven is for most skiers in Europe. We drove from Munich to southern Switzerland. The drive time was comparable to NJ to VT. Although the distance was greater (the AUTOBAHN baby!). It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of drivers in Europe drive 4 hours to ski.
(Not sure how to put multiple quotes in on post)...but on RIv's point...I was estimating we spend maybe $6000 a year in lift tix, daycare at the mountain, utilities, property tax and mortgage. All are annual costs and ignore the fact that we use our place for summer and fall vacations as well. 10% of that, $600, may be low. Looking at it now...I'll say 15-20% in gas.
q
Member
Gas in the USA is cheap, get over it!
At circa $10 a gallon equivalent here in the UK and petrol stations in my home city of Aberdeen currently running dry due to strikes at Grangemouth refinery you have little to worry about for now.
One thing annoys me in the USA bigtime and its these clowns running about in their blinking busses towing 4x4s on the back. I'd ban them from the road completely
Anyway, people in the UK have been driving 4-8 hours to get to Scottish resorts recently and I know of many that drive from Scotland to France to ski so I doubt $4 will make any difference at all to people from the UK in respect to them driving to their favorite resorts.
At circa $10 a gallon equivalent here in the UK and petrol stations in my home city of Aberdeen currently running dry due to strikes at Grangemouth refinery you have little to worry about for now.
One thing annoys me in the USA bigtime and its these clowns running about in their blinking busses towing 4x4s on the back. I'd ban them from the road completely
Anyway, people in the UK have been driving 4-8 hours to get to Scottish resorts recently and I know of many that drive from Scotland to France to ski so I doubt $4 will make any difference at all to people from the UK in respect to them driving to their favorite resorts.
q":3vuf1ffu said:
The ingrained mentality of waste and bigger-is-better is so prevalent here -- and it tends to get much worse in certain regions -- that even $5 gas won't stop Americans from doing that.
I always crack up while watching Sopranos reruns... during the opening sequence, Tony drives by a gas station with 99-cent gas (eight years ago?).
Marc_C
Active member
I just looked up the data. The last time gas in the US was sub-$1.00 was prior to 1990. Eight years ago it was around $1.50.jamesdeluxe":21fz8vox said:
This gas price temperature map is pretty interesting.
Whenever you hear the "average price of a gallon of gas in the U.S.," New Jersey is always 30 cents below that, and often more.
I absolutely remember paying less than a dollar in NJ just before the new millenium.
See for yourself at 1:05 (and I was wrong, it's 97 cents):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB1VKtWJ ... re=related
That gas price map is interesting, and it seems to be pretty accurate.
I absolutely remember paying less than a dollar in NJ just before the new millenium.
See for yourself at 1:05 (and I was wrong, it's 97 cents):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JB1VKtWJ ... re=related
That gas price map is interesting, and it seems to be pretty accurate.
jasoncapecod
Well-known member
A few months after 9/11 gas prices dipped bellow .90 in nj..
james is correct .. is there really a difference between 3or 4 dollar gas.
My ski commute is 200miles round trip. my car gets 30mpg. so what are we talking about 5 or 6 dollars extra in gas, not the end of the world.
james is correct .. is there really a difference between 3or 4 dollar gas.
My ski commute is 200miles round trip. my car gets 30mpg. so what are we talking about 5 or 6 dollars extra in gas, not the end of the world.
I started in 1978 during the Carter years. Does anyone remember the embargo
Harvey44":1cof13kw said:
True. What's with that?
"I remember," Quebec nationalist slogan the provincial government decided to put on the plates.
I'm in general agreement that there doesn't yet seem to be much elasticity in demand for gas in the U.S. vs. its price.
Very little in terms of immediate response (I'll drive less.)
Less than people expect in terms of vehicle purchase decisions (I'll buy a more fuel efficient vehicle than my previous one). Fuel efficiency has improved a lot over the past 30 years. But most consumers responded to that by buying cars/SUV's that have similar fuel economy but more weight and power than their previous vehicles. The current move away from SUV's to "crossovers" is common sense, because the latter have better handling, performance and at least equal carrying capacity and snow-driving capability. The only advantage to the truck-based SUV is off-road, and there are only a handful of people like admin who actually use these vehicles for that intended purpose.
Will there be a kink in that elasticity curve at some gas price as MarcC suggests? Maybe, but I don't think we have any idea where that price point might be.
With respect to skiing, there may be variations by regional market. I had always assumed that Mammoth did not get much competition from the SoCal locals due to its vastly superior product. That assumption was proven wrong during the early 1990's recession and SoCal demographic shift. The lodging cost of a weekend at Mammoth is a significant price barrier to many of the younger generation. So $150 in gas cost for a round trip to Mammoth might matter to some people. Though the usual response of younger skiers/riders in SoCal is to cram a lot of people to share both the driving and lodging costs.
I'm in general agreement that there doesn't yet seem to be much elasticity in demand for gas in the U.S. vs. its price.
Very little in terms of immediate response (I'll drive less.)
Less than people expect in terms of vehicle purchase decisions (I'll buy a more fuel efficient vehicle than my previous one). Fuel efficiency has improved a lot over the past 30 years. But most consumers responded to that by buying cars/SUV's that have similar fuel economy but more weight and power than their previous vehicles. The current move away from SUV's to "crossovers" is common sense, because the latter have better handling, performance and at least equal carrying capacity and snow-driving capability. The only advantage to the truck-based SUV is off-road, and there are only a handful of people like admin who actually use these vehicles for that intended purpose.
Will there be a kink in that elasticity curve at some gas price as MarcC suggests? Maybe, but I don't think we have any idea where that price point might be.
With respect to skiing, there may be variations by regional market. I had always assumed that Mammoth did not get much competition from the SoCal locals due to its vastly superior product. That assumption was proven wrong during the early 1990's recession and SoCal demographic shift. The lodging cost of a weekend at Mammoth is a significant price barrier to many of the younger generation. So $150 in gas cost for a round trip to Mammoth might matter to some people. Though the usual response of younger skiers/riders in SoCal is to cram a lot of people to share both the driving and lodging costs.
Tony Crocker":2y1qnzmv said:
The question wasn't what "je me souviens" means, but why so many from La Belle Province drive those ridiculous aircraft carriers... they can't get more than 6 MPG.
Maybe Patrick can tell us if it is my imagination...or there really is a Quebecois passion for motor homes.
With regard to the elasticity of demand for gas...there must be a point where consumption will change, I'm just not sure if it's a fixed position. When gas 1st hit $3...I noticed a significant reduction in speed on 287, which has since vanished.
For us...at $5 a gallon, I don't think we change our driving one bit. But then again...we only drive for essentials. My wife drives to work and the store. And I drive to the mountains.
In case it's not obvious...this is an issue that is really important to me. I've been buying small cars since I got my first car in 1979, and I only switched to all wheel drive...so I can ski. I always go easy on the gas, and calculate my mileage.
I'd LOVE to see a law requiring all cars to have digital gas mileage calculators. If you knew when you were test driving a Jeep Commander that it was getting 8 mpg, maybe you'd make a different choice. If you've ever surfed the forums at Edmunds...they are full of people whining that their mileage is way below what they expected.
Hijack alert: I'd like to know what everyone drives...and what kind of mileage you get.
When it came time to choose our last car...we ultimately choose the regular Civic (with manual trans) over the Civic hybrid or the Prius. The Civic hybrid trunk was too small for a baby carriage (batteries in there) and the extra cost was close to $5k. So we didn't put our money where our mouth is. The regular Civic does get us about 32 around and 45 highway, so it's not too shabby.
Our ski car..Honda CRV is used exclusively highway...almost 80% of the 10,000 miles per year are for skiing or travel to the mountains. In winter with a roofbox and winter gas it gets 25 mpg. Closer to 30 in the summer.
With regard to the elasticity of demand for gas...there must be a point where consumption will change, I'm just not sure if it's a fixed position. When gas 1st hit $3...I noticed a significant reduction in speed on 287, which has since vanished.
For us...at $5 a gallon, I don't think we change our driving one bit. But then again...we only drive for essentials. My wife drives to work and the store. And I drive to the mountains.
In case it's not obvious...this is an issue that is really important to me. I've been buying small cars since I got my first car in 1979, and I only switched to all wheel drive...so I can ski. I always go easy on the gas, and calculate my mileage.
I'd LOVE to see a law requiring all cars to have digital gas mileage calculators. If you knew when you were test driving a Jeep Commander that it was getting 8 mpg, maybe you'd make a different choice. If you've ever surfed the forums at Edmunds...they are full of people whining that their mileage is way below what they expected.
Hijack alert: I'd like to know what everyone drives...and what kind of mileage you get.
When it came time to choose our last car...we ultimately choose the regular Civic (with manual trans) over the Civic hybrid or the Prius. The Civic hybrid trunk was too small for a baby carriage (batteries in there) and the extra cost was close to $5k. So we didn't put our money where our mouth is. The regular Civic does get us about 32 around and 45 highway, so it's not too shabby.
Our ski car..Honda CRV is used exclusively highway...almost 80% of the 10,000 miles per year are for skiing or travel to the mountains. In winter with a roofbox and winter gas it gets 25 mpg. Closer to 30 in the summer.