Hunter removes season totals from conditions page

[Tony Crocker]

the clientele in Ottawa (Montreal, Quebec City or whatever) doesn't imagine that they can be snow on the slopes where there isn't snow on the ground in the cities.

That sentiment is more universal than you think. When it hits 80F in the winter here people go to the beach, even though the same low humidity of the Santa Anas means they can blow snow all night at Big Bear. And when snow dusts 5,700 ft. Mt. Wilson above Pasadena, people flock like lemmings to the local ski areas.

The spring problem is universal. When it gets warm in Denver and SLC, most of those people stop skiing and most of the ski areas close. You need a huge population base within drive distance of deep snowpack to support the late season: L.A., S.F. Bay, Vancouver. The East has the population base, but with the rare exception of a year like 2001 the ski area(s) must spend extra snowmaking $$$ to build the deep snowpack.

 

[Patrick]

You need a huge population base within drive distance of deep snowpack to support the late season: L.A., S.F. Bay, Vancouver. The East has the population base, but with the rare exception of a year like 2001 the ski area(s) must spend extra snowmaking $$$ to build the deep snowpack.

Yes, but the population base within a reasonable driving distance is much greater, especially thinking of Montreal/Ottawa (ie. Laurentians-Tremblant) versus Vancouver. If you take into account Kmart is within a day drive of how many millions people?

 

[Tony Crocker]

We've been down this road before. K-Mart is ideally located as far as the population base is concerned. Most of us here think they made a mistake abandoning the late season. We only argue over the details of how they should restore it.

I guess I don't know whether Montreal/Ottawa is as big as Vancouver. But the quality of the ski experience enters into the picture. And the difference in quality between East and West is much greater in spring than winter. Surely there are skiers who would ski 3,000 vertical of varied runs on Whistler in May who would not be interested in yoyoing an isothermic strip of stockpiled manmade snow. Thus you need the extra large population base that Killington has in order to make eastern May skiing viable IMHO.

 

[Patrick]

We've been down this road before. K-Mart is ideally located as far as the population base is concerned. Most of us here think they made a mistake abandoning the late season. We only argue over the details of how they should restore it.

I was about to mention that it's been discussed in the old annual Kmart discussions, but I got distracted by something work related.

I guess I don't know whether Montreal/Ottawa is as big as Vancouver.

Here are the top 7 metropolitan areas in Canada in 2005 (in thousands).

Toronto (Ont.) 5,304.1
Montréal (Que.) 3,635.7
Vancouver (B.C.) 2,208.3
Ottawa?Gatineau (Ont.?Que.)1,148.8
Calgary (Alta.) 1,060.3
Edmonton (Alta.) 1,016.0
Quebec (Que.) 717.6

(next 12 aren't wouldn't really be a factor for extending the ski season late like these places: Hamilton ON, Winnipeg MB, Victoria BC or Regina SK)

Other places close to ski country...

#20 - Sherbrooke (Que.)163.7 - Eastern Townships
#22 - Abbotsford (B.C.) 162.8 - not too far from Vancouver
#24 - Saguenay (Que.) 153.0 - a couple from Quebec City
#25 -Trois-Rivières (Que.)142.2 - halfway between MTL and QC City

But the quality of the ski experience enters into the picture. And the difference in quality between East and West is much greater in spring than winter. Surely there are skiers who would ski 3,000 vertical of varied runs on Whistler in May who would not be interested in yoyoing an isothermic strip of stockpiled manmade snow. Thus you need the extra large population base that Killington has in order to make eastern May skiing viable IMHO.

Careful, some people that have skied places like Whistler wouldn't even consider skiing in the smaller places in the East, however places like St-Sauveur used (I don't know about now) to have the greatest skier-visits in Quebec regardless of vertical. Some people are perfectly happy to have a season pass at a 700ft vertical hill and ski this place exclusively. If they are happy to yoyoing 10 trails in winter time at -20c, some of them would still be happy to do it on a handfull of trails at +20c instead.

 

[Spensar]

Some people are perfectly happy to have a season pass at a 700ft vertical hill and ski this place exclusively.

It's also what you know and experience. I grew up in Sudbury and skied at the Onaping ski hill and was happy with it since I didn't know any other ski experience. They don't make any snow but bet they could teach some of the big guys something about packing and perserving what you've got.

Vertical Drop: 300 ft (91 m)
Skiable Area: 30 acres (12 hectares)
Annual Snowfall: 50 in (127 cm)
Number of Lifts: 3
Lift Capacity: 3,100 per hour
Types of Lifts: 3 Surface Lifts
Number of Trails: 12
Longest Run: 2,640 ft (805 m)

Bit different after you go big though. My older brother was a beautiful skier who spent 5 years skiing the Rockies before moving back home. He may have skied once locally, if that.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Thanks for the population info. I recall in an earlier thread you said that Quebec City's population was too small to support late skiing. Montreal is 4x as big, but it's also at the edge of daytrip distance from Killington, 186 miles vs. 159 from Boston.

Are those city limit or metro area populations? It's fairly impressive that Vancouver locals can keep Whistler going 6 weeks after the last destination visitors are gone (the WSSF festival). Maybe a little help from Seattle?

 

[Patrick]

I recall in an earlier thread you said that Quebec City's population was too small to support late skiing.

I might have said it, but Quebec City isn't at the centre of a large population basin.

Montreal is 4x as big, but it's also at the edge of daytrip distance from Killington, 186 miles vs. 159 from Boston.

That is probably also the dilemma also. The Montreal skier clientele isn't captive to one region. You can either go North to the Laurentians or East/South to the Townships and Northern Vermont or Whiteface. Hardcore skiers can make it all the way to Quebec City and anywhere in Northern New England in a day drive.

For Kmart to be able to attract a greater number of diehards, then need to make long enough after the last ski areas has closed, people aren't going to bother adding only one week to their season and paying serious $$$ extra that they are charging in last season for similar or lesser conditions one week later. I made that point before in the Kmart discussions.

Are those city limit or metro area populations? It's fairly impressive that Vancouver locals can keep Whistler going 6 weeks after the last destination visitors are gone (the WSSF festival). Maybe a little help from Seattle?

The numbers are for Metro areas. My guess is that like Kmart (in the good old days), people starts showing up from other regions when it's the only game in town. For Kmart, it would attract people from all over the East, Whistler attracts at that time of the year people from across Canada and the US, not your typical skier, but the people like some of us on FTO. There is also a greater hardcore skibum population that reside in Whistler and surrounding that remain there in the Summer.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Renowned spring ski areas do attract a few diehards from afar (like Patrick to Mammoth the last 2 years) but it can't possibly be enough to pay the bills. 90+% of the business, especially from non-passholders, has to be the local drive-ups from the large metro areas. I don't think the ski areas stay open for the local ski bums, or else there would be many more. Like all of those western Colorado areas that close in early April with their maximum snowpack.

 

[Patrick]

Renowned spring ski areas do attract a few diehards from afar (like Patrick to Mammoth the last 2 years) but it can't possibly be enough to pay the bills. 90+% of the business, especially from non-passholders, has to be the local drive-ups from the large metro areas. I don't think the ski areas stay open for the local ski bums, or else there would be many more. Like all of those western Colorado areas that close in early April with their maximum snowpack.

No, not only the ski bums, but there's a few ski camps that pick up the slack at Whistler-Blackcomb.

How would you explain Timberline?

 

[Tony Crocker]

Timberline is primarily ski camps all of June and July. Maybe even later. You were there Labor Day. Who was skiing? Were the race courses/camps still going? Portland locals? Ski streakers from all over the Northwest? How many like you beyond drive distance?

Blackcomb Glacier late June and July is all ski camps. Public isn't allowed up there until after noon when the snow is crap.

Mammoth has had Ski Team training in June last 2 seasons. I never understood why Bachelor didn't compete for camps in June. They could even do downhill/Super G.

Whistler until first weekend of June and Mammoth until earlier of July 4 or snow runs out are mostly recreational skiers from the local metro area. This is probably true for Snowbird and A-Basin also.

 

[Patrick]

Timberline is primarily ski camps all of June and July. Maybe even later. You were there Labor Day. Who was skiing? Were the race courses/camps still going? Portland locals? Ski streakers from all over the Northwest? How many like you beyond drive distance?

I believe that the must courses I saw was two. One camp I saw (in late August) was a Masters type camp for recreational skiers and the other were kids/juniors. I don't remember if the camps overlaped during my stay, but I know the kids were the only ones left on the last weekend.

The rest were locals and streakers, pretty quiet.