From_the_NEK
New member
They should really plant some new trees at the top. The little snow fence up there just isn't cutting it in the snow retention area. Giant/steep boiler plate even on teh BEST powder day :roll:
Jay snowfall discussion: wind, upslope relative to others...
- Thread starter ono
- Start date
it's been brought up several times to jay's mountain manager and other staff-
they admit that can-am and others were a mistake (with regards to widening) but don't plan on planting anything or letting it grow back it.
kinda odd- they admit there's a problem and do nothing.
i was just reading up on alta- they planted 1400 saplings last summer alone (with 80% survival rates) and have planted over 15k trees in as many years on the mountain, among other veg. regeneration projects (seeding is another) alta may be required to do this, however, being in national forest...
why jay can't come around and do something similar is beyond me- especially when it would benefit the skiing/make the hill better. it would take much (how about not brush cutting the last 10 ft on each side of the boulevards for starters?) it's not rocket science...
they admit that can-am and others were a mistake (with regards to widening) but don't plan on planting anything or letting it grow back it.
kinda odd- they admit there's a problem and do nothing.
i was just reading up on alta- they planted 1400 saplings last summer alone (with 80% survival rates) and have planted over 15k trees in as many years on the mountain, among other veg. regeneration projects (seeding is another) alta may be required to do this, however, being in national forest...
why jay can't come around and do something similar is beyond me- especially when it would benefit the skiing/make the hill better. it would take much (how about not brush cutting the last 10 ft on each side of the boulevards for starters?) it's not rocket science...
riverc0il":2itg4awp said:
It was always like it is today. It was cut in the 1980s at the same time that they replaced the Bonnie double with the present-day red chair. The old Bonnie double went up Powerline. Those of us patrolling there in the late 80s/early 90s referred to it as the "StupidTrail" as opposed to the official "Supertrail".
There was at one time a zig-zagging narrow run that descended from the vicinity of Tram Tower 2 across what is now CanAm, but that had long since been abandoned and allowed to grow in before I started skiing there in the mid-70s. I can't for the life of me recall the name. They used to refer to that false summit at the top of CanAm/River Quai as "Bird Mountain".
When I was at the Vermont Ski Museum in the 80s back when it was in Brandon, they had a large wall-sized Jay trail map from the 60s, as well as an old paper map in a display case. Not sure if those maps have survived the move to the current Ski Museum exhibits in Stowe. It's amazing how many runs were there at that time and subsequently abandoned (St. George's Prayer from the summit is one notable example). It was also neat to see the old chair reaching the summit from the Mixing Bowl (the Skyway Double) as well as the old Poma that ran up skier's left of upper Ullr's Dream where the Poma Line trail is now. It was Walter Foegler's dream to provide early and late season skiing on Upper Ullr's, serviced by that poma with uploading and downloading via the Skyway and the Tram. That's why Beaver Pond was built: to serve as a snowmaking source for these efforts. Foegler had a falling out with Wayerhauser, which owned the ski area at that time, and they put water on that plan and removed the Skyway Double as a result -- it only operated from 1965 to 1969.
Somewhere from back in my patrol days in the late 80s I have a booklet chronicling Jay's detailed history. Not sure what box it's sitting in now.
Patrick
Well-known member
Admin":2i08wbwq said:
I remember when it came in, it was something very different and bold in your face trail.
On the positive side, the Can-Am Super Trail is an amazing modern race trail (like La Charlevoix at LeMassif). It's ugly and is often hard, we did maybe two training days on it on one of my last seasons when I was on the University Ski team. Our coach would starts a thigh GS course at the top of it then at the middle of the pitch the course would open up and bang...warp speed. :twisted: The course would end at the traverse on the flats.
I also remember :roll: that on the last run before lunch I hit a compression at the bottom and BANG...Black Out. I was on the ground with a massive headache, dizzy, blurred vision and a bended Kerma pole*. Yes, these were the days before anyone wore helmets in GS.
I found out many years later that I had probably suffered a mild concussion, that night there was a Ski Team party in Montreal and we were going shots of Tequila...and I thought that the massive headaches were because of those shots, not the stock to the head.
:lol: :wink:
*important historical note - my now famous pink poles were bought the following days at an end of the season where the only colour Kerma poles remaining was PINK. :lol:
Jay's trail structure wasn't always so wide open. In fact, when we used to take our family trips there in the 1960's, what is now the Can-Am skating rink was a snaking, double fall line path called Instructors Run, similar to but about half as wide as The Goat at Stowe. The upper part of Ullr's that now feeds the BP glade area was much narrower but just as windswept. The old summit chair that ran adjacent to the pomo line was seldom open and usually encased in rime because of the high winds.
Instructors Run is what I was referring to - thanks, I was drawing a blank on the name last night. I'm not surprised about the operability of that Skyway Double, given that it's on the northwest - and therefore most wind-prone - side of the summit (see, they were already doing stupid things back in the 60s! :wink
. Still, I would've loved to have seen and ridden that lift, which pre-dated the tram by two years.
. Still, I would've loved to have seen and ridden that lift, which pre-dated the tram by two years.I was going to say it was the instructor trail... But that trail wasn't all the way were the Can-Am is now... It was more where deliverance now is... When you use to get to the top of the bonny quad, there was a small clearing that you could see as you reach the top. The trail use to get you back to the Power Line (aka Old lift line of the bonny double)
Do you remember how far it was to reach the old T-Bar on state side? I was a kid back then and remember that it was pretty far! I don't remember the Jet T-bar but i took it on several occasions... At least that's what my father says... If we still had the old T-bar on stateside, there would be no problem with the snowpark! But then again, it wouldn't be possible to have the Can-Am!
If i were in Jay management, i would definately split the Can-AM in two by planting trees right in the middle... It could be sweet!
Do you remember how far it was to reach the old T-Bar on state side? I was a kid back then and remember that it was pretty far! I don't remember the Jet T-bar but i took it on several occasions... At least that's what my father says... If we still had the old T-bar on stateside, there would be no problem with the snowpark! But then again, it wouldn't be possible to have the Can-Am!
If i were in Jay management, i would definately split the Can-AM in two by planting trees right in the middle... It could be sweet!
planting right down the middle is a good idea- instant snowfence. planting in the spring would be a good idea,wouldn't take much to start- plant some 8 ft spruce/fir right down the middle- wouldn't cost too much, and would save plenty-o-snow come the next winter.
it wouldn't cost much- the snow retention would definitely be worth the initial job.,
it wouldn't cost much- the snow retention would definitely be worth the initial job.,
riverc0il
New member
thanks for the history, i appreciate the back ground. i think i was just discussing with from_the_NEK during our last visit that i thought jay could use a similar program as MRG regeneration wise. i was thinking more about the glades, but splitting can am in half with trees would be sweet. makes it kinda hard to blow snow when you are trying to grow trees though. :? darn snow making. that is a small part of the reason trails always get wider and never narrower.
ono":1lvzlhhl said:
I was at Jay last year in late Dec. for two days, perhaps just before (or on?) Christmas, I'm not sure exactly. But I have to disagree on the conditions. The coverage was pretty good in all the glades that were open (all but Staircase) -- thin cover in many places, yes, but definitely skiable, soft, and fun. The trails were pretty good too. Perhaps I went just before you, because I know it took a turn for the worse soon after my trip.
When I was at Brian Head, UT a few years ago, the marketing director bemoaned how much it was costing to replace the thousands of pine trees it had lost to a bark beetle infestation. And they were planting small seedlings -- many of which were skied over and otherwise mangled during the first half of the season.
It would be interesting to know how much it would cost Jay to undertake a replanting program.
It would be interesting to know how much it would cost Jay to undertake a replanting program.
powderfreak
New member
Jay does get a little bit more than anywhere else, they've got that going for them and they've marketed it well. However, skiing both mountains, the difference is not as much as one might think. Jay has this banner which shows them at 355" or something like that, and Smugglers Notch at 280" and Stowe at like 260". Now, I'm not sure what others think, but I know from friends and others who ski at Smuggs, that they say Mansfield almost always has more snow on a mountain wide average. Either way, I've been following the snowfall this season closely and Smuggs and Stowe have reported nearly the same amount of snowfall, inch for inch per storm.
Jay's usually 1-2" higher per storm which fits as I'm sure they have drier snow. Overall snowpack, however, appears to be roughly the same when all is said and done, and Mansfield will still hold natural snow for more vertical feet than Jay at the end of the season (due to the flats at the bottom and overall aspect).
Whenever I've skied there, the deepest snow has been far and away in Beaver Pond and Beyond Beaver Pond. The stuff just sifts in there and must be getting blown in from somewhere...its like the Bypass Chutes at Stowe where the snowfall can be twice as deep as the rest of the mountain as it blows off the ridgeline above. Both Stowe and Jay are easily vulnerable to wind hold due to the high speed lifts and exposure of said lifts. Smuggs won't go on hold unless its really bad, because they have the fixed grip M1 going to the top...much like Stowe's Lookout Double, used as a backup (such as on Saturday) on windy days. The Mansfield Quad reminds me much of the Green Mtn Flyer as the ride can be alright till the last portion when the lifts rise out of their little pockets and onto a flatter, upper ridge exposed area.
Bottom line is, they both get nailed with upslope snowfall when conditions are right...Jays proximity to low pressure systems in the Maritimes helps them a little more but not significantly. Both mountains get blasted by high winds in these events and to really get the goods, you need to know the mountain and know where that snow ended up. I think that's why BBP at Jay appears so deep, because there was no real strong wind so the 2 feet that falls, just sits there nice and fluffy...while the rest of the mountain gets drifted and a little windpacked, even in the glades which can be enough to make 2 feet into a widespread 8-10" of windblown. Just need to know where to go and sometimes I do feel bad showing pics of Stowe/Mt Mansfield with deep powder when I know that there were likely only a handful of us skiing that powder while the rest of the customers are wondering why the trails are all icy and blown free. Then they see a picture of some dude skiing knee deep blower and they get frustrated. I know because I used to do that all the time before I moved up here
And if Steve from JP's Marketing reads this...I know at Stowe gained a lot of respect when the seasonal snowfall counter was reset to remove the October snowfall. That way, we can really see what happens this year and for anyone else out there, from my look into the industry, no one lies to you about snowfall totals...they really try to keep it as honest as possible and I even find underreporting to happen quite frequently. But while I think someone might have underreported, there are 10 customers who think they are flat out lying because they are skiing in the wrong place on the mountain. If we were to include the full range of new snowfall w/wind effects...it would be 0"-36" for a 12" storm. Same with base depths...they are averages but could be anywhere from 0"-100". At Stowe, the skiers right of Starr headwall will always be down to rock...same with Goat and Lookout. But the skiers left at the bottom of the headwall will have an incredible amount of snow. Lookout under the double is the best example as the skiers right can be 2-4" of snow on top of rock and ice, while the skiers left is 2-4 FEET worth of drifts and small trees are getting buried.
Its a tough business...can't please everyone but my best advice is to find out as much info as possible or ask someone where the best skiing will be and trust that they won't lie to you (I won't but some will).
Jay's usually 1-2" higher per storm which fits as I'm sure they have drier snow. Overall snowpack, however, appears to be roughly the same when all is said and done, and Mansfield will still hold natural snow for more vertical feet than Jay at the end of the season (due to the flats at the bottom and overall aspect).
Whenever I've skied there, the deepest snow has been far and away in Beaver Pond and Beyond Beaver Pond. The stuff just sifts in there and must be getting blown in from somewhere...its like the Bypass Chutes at Stowe where the snowfall can be twice as deep as the rest of the mountain as it blows off the ridgeline above. Both Stowe and Jay are easily vulnerable to wind hold due to the high speed lifts and exposure of said lifts. Smuggs won't go on hold unless its really bad, because they have the fixed grip M1 going to the top...much like Stowe's Lookout Double, used as a backup (such as on Saturday) on windy days. The Mansfield Quad reminds me much of the Green Mtn Flyer as the ride can be alright till the last portion when the lifts rise out of their little pockets and onto a flatter, upper ridge exposed area.
Bottom line is, they both get nailed with upslope snowfall when conditions are right...Jays proximity to low pressure systems in the Maritimes helps them a little more but not significantly. Both mountains get blasted by high winds in these events and to really get the goods, you need to know the mountain and know where that snow ended up. I think that's why BBP at Jay appears so deep, because there was no real strong wind so the 2 feet that falls, just sits there nice and fluffy...while the rest of the mountain gets drifted and a little windpacked, even in the glades which can be enough to make 2 feet into a widespread 8-10" of windblown. Just need to know where to go and sometimes I do feel bad showing pics of Stowe/Mt Mansfield with deep powder when I know that there were likely only a handful of us skiing that powder while the rest of the customers are wondering why the trails are all icy and blown free. Then they see a picture of some dude skiing knee deep blower and they get frustrated. I know because I used to do that all the time before I moved up here
And if Steve from JP's Marketing reads this...I know at Stowe gained a lot of respect when the seasonal snowfall counter was reset to remove the October snowfall. That way, we can really see what happens this year and for anyone else out there, from my look into the industry, no one lies to you about snowfall totals...they really try to keep it as honest as possible and I even find underreporting to happen quite frequently. But while I think someone might have underreported, there are 10 customers who think they are flat out lying because they are skiing in the wrong place on the mountain. If we were to include the full range of new snowfall w/wind effects...it would be 0"-36" for a 12" storm. Same with base depths...they are averages but could be anywhere from 0"-100". At Stowe, the skiers right of Starr headwall will always be down to rock...same with Goat and Lookout. But the skiers left at the bottom of the headwall will have an incredible amount of snow. Lookout under the double is the best example as the skiers right can be 2-4" of snow on top of rock and ice, while the skiers left is 2-4 FEET worth of drifts and small trees are getting buried.
Its a tough business...can't please everyone but my best advice is to find out as much info as possible or ask someone where the best skiing will be and trust that they won't lie to you (I won't but some will).
riverc0il
New member
mansfield definitely retains snow longer than jay both due to elevation, flats, and aspect. i suspect mansfield doesn't have as much of a wind swept issue as jay does. i am continually amazed at how much snow jay can receive but would leave the casual skier wondering where it all fell. this past weekend, you could find spots at jay that were two feet deep in wind protected areas that didn't get tracked out during the previous storm. just the first two runs alone, 6" on the main trails but 12" in the woods. this sure brings to point the difficulty of selecting a representative range for the entire mountain... but also highlights the importance of using a range.powderfreak":2oml7wz8 said:
how are stowe's on the map glades doing so far this season? that might be a better comparison measurement of snowpack when all is said and done. jay has almost everything open with good coverage though still occasional thin spots. but you can essentially ski any open glade without worry of base damage if you keep your eyes open.