June Mountain, CA to shut down for 2012-13
- Thread starter Skiace
- Start date
Tom Moriarty
New member
Be nice to see a good management team formed and then present June to CNL. Seems like the type of property they may be interested in.
CNL is mostly involved in the real estate developments at the base of ski areas. So I doubt they would have the slightest interest in June. I think the ball is mainly in the court of the June locals.
Suggestions such as mine about how Mammoth can market June more effectively are not likely to fly with the lenders who don't want Mammoth to spend any more $ there.
Tom Moriarty
New member
Wrong Tony!
Mt. High has no base area development at all and they own it I believe and Karl owns the management company.
Mt. High has no base area development at all and they own it I believe and Karl owns the management company.
Mt. High also does ~500K skier visits per year. Big corporate investors like CNL buy the property, then lease it back to the operator who makes payments from ongoing operations. I do not see this happening with June's revenue stream.
I still see just 2 options:
1) Mammoth's satellite operation catering to beginners and families. It now seems unlikely that Mammoth's creditors will let Rusty try this.
2) Locals take it over and run on a low expense/coop/minimalist model.
I still see just 2 options:
1) Mammoth's satellite operation catering to beginners and families. It now seems unlikely that Mammoth's creditors will let Rusty try this.
2) Locals take it over and run on a low expense/coop/minimalist model.
We have seen a lot of secondary areas go out of business over the next 20-30 years. I'd guess June's survival is more likely in a cooperative arrangement where Mammoth is actively pushing its weekend/holiday beginner/family business over there. If the areas are competitors I think June is more likely to fail, as it surely would have had Dave McCoy not bought it in 1986.
I'm not entirely sure June is doomed as a stand alone area. In 1986 across-the-board upgrades were needed. Now probably replacement of J1 is the only pressing need. Maybe some more snowmaking.
I'm not entirely sure June is doomed as a stand alone area. In 1986 across-the-board upgrades were needed. Now probably replacement of J1 is the only pressing need. Maybe some more snowmaking.
soulskier
New member
June Lake Citizen Advisory Committee Meeting Recap including videos
http://www.mrablog.com/june-lake-citize ... pitznagel/
http://www.mrablog.com/june-lake-citize ... pitznagel/
June Mountain needs the support of its elected leaders and citizens to survive. The people and elected officials of June Lake are largely to blame for its demise, not the corporate ownership of the mountain.
Both the owners of the mountain and Intrawest aggressively tried to get approvals to build on the Rodeo Grounds. Mammoth promised to invest in the necessary mountain upgrades if Intrawest was permitted to build the additional lodging that is badly needed (new more desirable and marketable places to stay at in June Lake). The people fought the proposals to their death and they're proud of that fact. They killed the ski area and they are to blame. You can't blame Mammoth Mountain management, Starwood or the investors.
I agree with Rusty Gregory and Mammoth/Starwood's conclusion that in its current state June Mountain is not worth marketing. The mountain does not provide an experience that is competitive with other ski areas that attract snow sport tourists. Those unfamiliar with the mountain likely leave disappointed and never return. The facilities and what the town is not competitive.
Earlier this year (February) when Mammoth was reporting all of the financial troubles I told my parents while in Colorado that I bet June Mountain would not survive past this season. The writing was on the wall and my prediction was accurate.
I will miss June Mountain very much. My family and I learned to ski at June Mountain in December 1981 and we spent a week at Christmas there in 1981, 1982, 1983. My parents would spend a second week in the spring of 1981 and 1982 playing catch up with learning to ski. We also spent a long weekend there in March 1986. That's the last family trip to June Mountain because we started going to Utah and then moved our family ski trips to Colorado. I've been to June Mountain on a few other occasions with friends or a ski club, but I can say that I would not go there today for anything more than a day away from a trip to Mammoth. The lodging and town do not meet my expectations.
June Mountain and June Lake are in desperate need of some upgrades, but the people have spoken and they don't want them. This is so typical of locals living in ski towns. They act like they're entitled, the fight change or progress and they fail to realize that their lifestyle is dependent on the ski area that really created the town, so they then work against the company that keeps the town afloat. I see this attitude in Aspen-Snowmass as well. Now what I see are a bunch of clueless locals pointing fingers and wishing the company they treated so poorly would keep the business going.
--
Tony, I don't believe June Mountain has snowmaking beyond coverage for Mambo and the area around the base of J2 and J6. At one time the mountain had hydrants on Slalom down off J5, but that was in the early 80s when they also had night skiing on that lift. If June Mountain had more snowmaking capacity they would've opened more terrain this past Christmas. No operator with a sane mind is going to miss out the week between Christmas and New Years.
Both the owners of the mountain and Intrawest aggressively tried to get approvals to build on the Rodeo Grounds. Mammoth promised to invest in the necessary mountain upgrades if Intrawest was permitted to build the additional lodging that is badly needed (new more desirable and marketable places to stay at in June Lake). The people fought the proposals to their death and they're proud of that fact. They killed the ski area and they are to blame. You can't blame Mammoth Mountain management, Starwood or the investors.
I agree with Rusty Gregory and Mammoth/Starwood's conclusion that in its current state June Mountain is not worth marketing. The mountain does not provide an experience that is competitive with other ski areas that attract snow sport tourists. Those unfamiliar with the mountain likely leave disappointed and never return. The facilities and what the town is not competitive.
Earlier this year (February) when Mammoth was reporting all of the financial troubles I told my parents while in Colorado that I bet June Mountain would not survive past this season. The writing was on the wall and my prediction was accurate.
I will miss June Mountain very much. My family and I learned to ski at June Mountain in December 1981 and we spent a week at Christmas there in 1981, 1982, 1983. My parents would spend a second week in the spring of 1981 and 1982 playing catch up with learning to ski. We also spent a long weekend there in March 1986. That's the last family trip to June Mountain because we started going to Utah and then moved our family ski trips to Colorado. I've been to June Mountain on a few other occasions with friends or a ski club, but I can say that I would not go there today for anything more than a day away from a trip to Mammoth. The lodging and town do not meet my expectations.
June Mountain and June Lake are in desperate need of some upgrades, but the people have spoken and they don't want them. This is so typical of locals living in ski towns. They act like they're entitled, the fight change or progress and they fail to realize that their lifestyle is dependent on the ski area that really created the town, so they then work against the company that keeps the town afloat. I see this attitude in Aspen-Snowmass as well. Now what I see are a bunch of clueless locals pointing fingers and wishing the company they treated so poorly would keep the business going.
--
Tony, I don't believe June Mountain has snowmaking beyond coverage for Mambo and the area around the base of J2 and J6. At one time the mountain had hydrants on Slalom down off J5, but that was in the early 80s when they also had night skiing on that lift. If June Mountain had more snowmaking capacity they would've opened more terrain this past Christmas. No operator with a sane mind is going to miss out the week between Christmas and New Years.
egieszl's experience demonstrates June's strengths/value. His family used it regularly when they were learning to ski for several seasons and have since moved on. Did they refuse to ski there during the 1980's because there wasn't a spiffy village at the Rodeo Grounds?
The village at Mammoth has not been a great financial success. How much of the SoCal drive-up market ever stays there? Liz' NYC ski club didn't stay there either, presumably for the same reasons of price. The June Mt. beginner/family market is more price sensitive than the overall destination ski market IMHO. It would be good for June Mt. to have lodging at the Rodeo Grounds, but it needs to be constructed in a way that rental prices will be attractive to the beginner/family market.
The village at Mammoth has not been a great financial success. How much of the SoCal drive-up market ever stays there? Liz' NYC ski club didn't stay there either, presumably for the same reasons of price. The June Mt. beginner/family market is more price sensitive than the overall destination ski market IMHO. It would be good for June Mt. to have lodging at the Rodeo Grounds, but it needs to be constructed in a way that rental prices will be attractive to the beginner/family market.
Last edited:
June Mountain will probably never be a high-end market and real estate prices are for the most part affordable, so I don't think any new lodging would break the bank or push rental rates into the stratosphere. However, they need some nice places and in turn this would force some of the older properties around town to either renovate to stay competitive or disappear (good thing).
I agree it has the potential to be a great beginner mountain, but they got to build a more "beginner friendly" lift up The Face. I think a gondola is an absolute requirement. If you're going to go after that crowd then you have to have a friendly lift for downloading. The existing Riblet double is not acceptable.
Again, the people of June Lake drove away the investors and now what have they got? Nothing!
I agree it has the potential to be a great beginner mountain, but they got to build a more "beginner friendly" lift up The Face. I think a gondola is an absolute requirement. If you're going to go after that crowd then you have to have a friendly lift for downloading. The existing Riblet double is not acceptable.
Again, the people of June Lake drove away the investors and now what have they got? Nothing!
That didn't stop your family from going to June either. It is completely unrealistic to expect any owner/buyer to spend the $ for a gondola. A used fixed quad or triple with safety bar/footrests should be good enough.egieszl":1iy0u9ic said:
Mike Bernstein
New member
In fact, they had agreements in principle for those approvals, though not in the exact form they wanted - a 7 story monstrosity completely out of character with the town that would no doubt have been as "successful" as the village at Mammoth.egieszl":340x3kyw said:
Since when does $22M in gondolas, high speed quads and base lodge expansions qualify as "necessary mountain upgrades" for a place with June's starting point, terrain and location? That's utter nonsense, and a sure road to ruin by levering the place up with an unsustainable debt load. Tony nails it - the only major investments June needs is a used quad to replace the J1 and an expansion of the ticket office to allow for booting up and bag storage. Both of those could be accomplished for roughly $1M combined. As for marketable places to stay - I had no problem finding high end (not luxury, but true high end) accomodations whenever I stayed at June. That's a complete canard. Families looking for a true Sierra experience at a discount don't need, and can't afford, the sort of price point that a massive Rodeo Grounds development would require.
So Rusty says that the banks forced his hand, but some shmuck in Aspen knows better? Please.
Right - because e-mail blasts of the sort I receive from MMSA on a near daily basis (and have NEVER seen for June) are incrediably expensive to execute. It's not worth it for MMSA to market June b/c why would they drive skiers to a mtn yielding $50/visit when they can drive them to the mtn yielding over $100/visit? Doesn't take rocket science or conspiracy theorists to figure that one out.
Insightful, fact-based analysis there.
What's next weeks Mega Millions number, Karnak?
Well I guess that settles it.
Yes - how DARE the locals take a stand to try and ensure that development takes place in a manner consistent with the culture and values of the local community!! The nerve of them!!
You are a bitter, pathetic little man.
soulskier
New member
Skiing: Sierra residents rally to save June Mountain
http://summitcountyvoice.com/2012/07/19 ... -mountain/
http://summitcountyvoice.com/2012/07/19 ... -mountain/
Egieszl and soulskier represent the opposing extremes of opinion about June.
With respect to the specific development issues I think soulskier is closer to the mark. But in terms of the big picture egieszl probably agrees more with me that if Mammoth and June are in direct competition June's survival is in grave doubt. Whenever we get into these ski area debates I always argue to examine the regional context. Also-ran areas have a tough time when overshadowed by high quality regional competition.
The niche of June's strengths (beginners and families) can best be exploited in synergy with Mammoth. But it's questionable whether Mammoth is willing to do that under current financial constraints.
With respect to the specific development issues I think soulskier is closer to the mark. But in terms of the big picture egieszl probably agrees more with me that if Mammoth and June are in direct competition June's survival is in grave doubt. Whenever we get into these ski area debates I always argue to examine the regional context. Also-ran areas have a tough time when overshadowed by high quality regional competition.
The niche of June's strengths (beginners and families) can best be exploited in synergy with Mammoth. But it's questionable whether Mammoth is willing to do that under current financial constraints.
Tony Crocker":1sdcsue9 said:
Tony you're missing the point. We went to June Mountain 30 years ago! It was a different time in the ski industry.
Today, people expect a lot more because that is what other resorts offer. I would not take my family to June Mountain to learn to ski today. My brother would not either. We would not recommend June Mountain in it's current state to anyone who was thinking of learning to ski either. My parents who still ski wouldn't recommend June Mountain either. My cousins who skied June didn't take their daughters to learn there and won't visit because as my cousin Dave says "the town is a dump and for just a little bit more I can go to a great resort in Colorado."
The upgrades are necessary to make it a beginner friendly mountain and to offer an positive ski area experience. If that sort of investment is not necessary then why did Dave McCoy do exactly what I said needs to be done. However, I think he learned afterwards that the upgraded infrastructure didn't bring the people to June.
The Riblet double can be outfitted with a foot rest / safety bar, but you can't have that when people are carrying equipment while downloading. If you have safety bars the equipment has to ride separately!
I think the mountain is a goner. I will be shocked if it reopens.
No offense Mike, but you're a complete a**hole. I welcome and enjoy reading the thoughts and opinions of others even when they differ from my own, but not when you act like a complete dick in response. I shared my opinion. I never said my thoughts were definitive, but based on your response and how it is written I can infer that you believe that there is absolutely no plausible way that anything I write could be true. What a closed mind. You're pathetic.
What does a used, fixed grip quad on the face of June solve? Nothing.
The ski area is a large reason why June Lake exists, but I guess those who live there never appreciated that fact. I've been in the Internet business for 16 years. Email marketing, may be cheap, but it is not very effective and largely you're marketing to those who've subscribed, so they're already your customer.
If someone thinks they can turn around June Mountain while not making the upgrades then I'd love to hear their plan. The rallies and protests are useless. Someone needs to come up with a logical plan and that is going to require reversing the annual losses because the mountain can't survive running at a deficit. And don't use Bridger Bowl as an example either which is the one I've seen thrown around multiple times. June Mountain isn't Bridger Bowl because there isn't a local population of 38,000 people living at it's door.
What does a used, fixed grip quad on the face of June solve? Nothing.
The ski area is a large reason why June Lake exists, but I guess those who live there never appreciated that fact. I've been in the Internet business for 16 years. Email marketing, may be cheap, but it is not very effective and largely you're marketing to those who've subscribed, so they're already your customer.
If someone thinks they can turn around June Mountain while not making the upgrades then I'd love to hear their plan. The rallies and protests are useless. Someone needs to come up with a logical plan and that is going to require reversing the annual losses because the mountain can't survive running at a deficit. And don't use Bridger Bowl as an example either which is the one I've seen thrown around multiple times. June Mountain isn't Bridger Bowl because there isn't a local population of 38,000 people living at it's door.
I don't see why today's beginners would not have the same positive experience you had. It's the same mountain. How many places have a 2.5 mile beginner run from the top with the panoramic views like Silverado, which is now served by a high speed lift? Beginners will ride the J1 twice a day. It doesn't need to be high speed; it just needs not to be a center bar double and have the perceived security of safety bar/footrests. Beginners aren't skiing 20K per day and most of them would appreciate the more low key atmosphere vs. Mammoth or Aspen/Vail.egieszl":kafsenio said:
Really? Put a family of 4 on an airplane to Colorado, especially into a secondary airport like Aspen vs. a place where you can drive? I suspect there is reasonably priced lodging in June Lake too. Beginners are trying out the sport. Young families have to watch their budgets. In neither case are they willing to commit big $ to skiing destinations until they are hooked on the sport. FYI this was my own attitude as a beginner/low intermediate in my mid-20's. I didn't think I should be flying off to destinations until I could ski the vast majority of terrain at Mammoth.egieszl":kafsenio said:
Sadly, I will dispute this statement less than the previous 2. It's overly pessimistic, but I think it's close to 50% that June is dead. Or maybe for a few years we see a sporadic situation with revolving door owners like Magic Mt. or Mt. Waterman. It is unfortunate that the ski industry does not care about beginners as much as it should. Surely there is a case they should be subsidized in the interest of long term growth.egieszl":kafsenio said: