Killington 5/19/05

cd

New member
Funny that the below post mentioned deciding between hiking Jay or Kmart Thurs, as it happens I did the latter! Judging from your pics I got the better cover but hey a day of skiing is etc....

I went up figuring the middle section would be thin, if not broken, but that I would at least hike/ski the lower steep pitch (I think of it as the 'footwall') as it would be full of snow, not to mention have the advantage of being literally steps from the van. Well even my cynical self was shocked when I rounded the bend on the access road and saw a solid stripe of snow virtually unchanged from last week! To honor the trail's long tradition (hey, it's not the snows fault the lift is closed) I just had to hike all the way up for a top-to-bottom run before rehiking the bottom pitch a couple of times. There's a well kicked-in climbing line on skiers right but hiking up is really no prob regardless of line chosen.

Except for the very lip of the upper headwall, the coverage is absolutely perfect, thick and unbroken. The narrowest spot, the one that always breaks just above the 'footwall', is still a good 50' wide and most places are almost double that. The snow depth on the head- and foot- walls still has gotta be over 8', likely double digits in places, with the flatter middle section naturally thinner but still holding up great. There's almost none of that gap in the footwall that always comes in from skiers right and eventually makes the lower pitch a dogleg of sorts (we've called it the "DMZ" as the late cover at the bottom starts to resemble a map of Nam!). I didn't have a camera, but if you scroll to the pics in the "5-2/3/4" thread below for reference, Superstar's cover is *much* better than the shot from last year. Hell, even the snow back to the lift at the bottom is still servicable! In short exactly where it should be a couple of weeks before closing. A nice day in W MA, it was a little more overcast at K with some sunny breaks, the heating action of which touched off a couple of very brief/light sprinkles, and even a couple of bursts of very small hail pellets (almost snow-like), all of which were quite refreshing actually. I highly recommend grabbing some!

For all the signs of the soul of skiing slipping away to corporate homogenization in recent years (the ever later openings, the trail/lift count plummeting late season, hiking a fully covered mt after an early closing (which I did again this year at Snow)), I must say that the sight of an unbroken perfectly bumped Superstar in the spring with no lift running is the most pathetic yet. They should absolutely positively still be open. Someone said that ASC changed their opening/closing policy last year and that there's nothing new this year. Not true. Yes the openings have pretty well morphed by now (the "no opening until top-to-bottom" edict is purely to justify opening later) but there were a couple of major firsts this year: a) it's the first year in a quarter century plus that a closing date was decreed weeks in advance, regardless of conditions; and related b) it's the first time ever that they've closed Kmart with top to bottom cover (in fact, with more than one trail!).

My last two lift serviced days at K were last Tues and Fri. Tues was a day at the beach, at close to 80 degrees it was almost too warm but the snow was like buttah. Fri (the 13th!) was after one of those very cold nights so I didn't even bother showing up until mid afternoon, which was just about right as even then the caps of the upper headwall's bumps were pretty crisp (someone told me that some/all of Superstar was closed until noon) but it all softened up perfectly for the last coupla hours.

Two things worth noting from those last officially-open trips: First, the grooming was very subtle, nothing like last year. Then again, last year wasn't "grooming" so much as nightly bulldozing strictly to get the snow to melt faster so they could close, what with the land-for-debt swap imminent and they wanting to appear frugal to their overlords (never mind that a couple of weeks of spinning one lift has very little to do with their financial troubles). So what we actually had, after a quarter century of conditions determining the closing, was the exact opposite! Anyway, the lack of such brutal nightly tomfoolery this year simply confirms what most knew, ie that it had nothing to do with some imagined sudden call for table-flat grooming from the public. Even if one does accept there's some sudden great call for grooming (again I don't), the grooming this year was the way to do it, i.e. keeping the machines to one side so the trail fades from flatter to bumpier as you move from one side to the other. It should *never* be a question of one OR the other.

Also, the claim that they'd be staying open for "20 passholders" is BS. First off, I must as always point out that passholders ARE paying customers. Second, there were a hell of a lot of people there last week and plenty of them had day tix on. On the Tues I made a point of counting cars in the lot during the noon hour and there were a little over 100, which means far more skiers. On the Friday there were lots more cars, too many to take the time to count. Of course, they'd probably try to claim the good skier count was due to the grooming or "quality ski experience right up to closing" or some such nonsense, but the claim that they're trying to broaden their late season appeal would hold a whole lot more water if they were actually *advertising* the fact they were open! Even the video news release about Sunday River and Sugarloaf closing made no mention whatsoever of the fact that the same company still had an area open!! They ask "Why should we stay open?"- the answer is "For the same reasons you always did!". It's their football of course but let's call it what it is.

I won't pretend that my review will start a massive K thread as it did the last two years, mainly because the thread has already beeen going for awhile spread amongst multiple headers. Fact is that those old threads were a lot more than just 140 posts of complaining. They were/are a celebration of the fading tradition: reminisces about early/late adventures, folks digging out their old photos etc. Keep it coming. As for the exposure of tradition-busting practices and reasons and such, they'll just have to deal with it. After all, somewhere in some meeting someone said "We'll catch some flack from the hardore, but...." and we'd hate to disappoint 'em!
 
In a way, I'm glad to hear I was wrong about my assertion that the snow would probably not last past the 14-15th after my last lift served day on the 12th.

On the other hand, it's pretty sad too for the reasons you mention. For the record, I am not a K passholder and I would pay to get some lift served skiing this weekend.

What a shame.
 
I agree wholeheartedly with the above post. If Snowbird can be flexible, with spring clientele of mostly passholders, and Mt. Baldy can be open when it requires 3 lifts to get to the ski terrain, I just don't buy Killington having to have a fixed closing date.

Killington has a huge population base, meaningful patronage by non-passholders and a region-wide marketing image over 30 years. Plus the first 2 closed weekends will be a Canadian 3-day holiday and a U.S. 3-day holiday. They must be focused totally on the current quarter cash flow. Yet given the Baldy example and upcoming holidays I bet they would make money being open those 2 weekends.

Baldy's last day of daily operation was last Sunday, but they plan to run 2 more weekends. I think it will be a close call. L.A. temps are in the 90's now and Baldy's beginner area is burning off, thus a 1/4 mile walk will soon be needed between top of the access chair and the base of Thunder Mt.
 
cd":2p18yadg said:
I must say that the sight of an unbroken perfectly bumped Superstar in the spring with no lift running is the most pathetic yet. They should absolutely positively still be open. Someone said that ASC changed their opening/closing policy last year and that there's nothing new this year. Not true. Yes the openings have pretty well morphed by now (the "no opening until top-to-bottom" edict is purely to justify opening later) but there were a couple of major firsts this year: a) it's the first year in a quarter century plus that a closing date was decreed weeks in advance, regardless of conditions; and related b) it's the first time ever that they've closed Kmart with top to bottom cover (in fact, with more than one trail!).
(...)
So what we actually had, after a quarter century of conditions determining the closing, was the exact opposite!
(...)
I won't pretend that my review will start a massive K thread as it did the last two years, mainly because the thread has already beeen going for awhile spread amongst multiple headers. Fact is that those old threads were a lot more than just 140 posts of complaining. They were/are a celebration of the fading tradition: reminisces about early/late adventures, folks digging out their old photos etc. Keep it coming. As for the exposure of tradition-busting practices and reasons and such, they'll just have to deal with it. After all, somewhere in some meeting someone said "We'll catch some flack from the hardore, but...." and we'd hate to disappoint 'em!

What an excellent post. =D>

As Jim (and I mentioned it in the report from the 14th), I am not a passholder. It was hard to determine how many non-passholders there were, but there was definately more than 20. A pretty good turnout considering saturday weather and forecast.

CD, your post sums it up pretty well. I stated earlier today (in the many other spin off discussion) how K never had so snow coverage on closing. It's definately sad to see. As stated by a few others, the management should be more flexible on it's closing day. If it were all about money, many ski areas would have never been started. I might sounded positive regarding what K has done this year, however it might nave been because my expectation were not as they used to be. :-k

The visionaries of the sport were not concern about the bottom line, there just wanted to share their love of the sport with others. :mrgreen:
 
I agree that they should be much for flexible with respect to closing based on the merit of supply and demand ( how much snow is in supply and how much skier demand is there).

I would be really curious to hear what K's costs are for keeping Superstar open in May, vs. how much revenue it would generate. I know that opening in May is probably a losing money proposition (because I think that there are ancilliary costs that we don't think of - insurance to name one...) and as such they pass themselves off as being fiscally responsible by closing at a fixed date. I could go on and call them soulfully irresponsable but I won't, because we've all done that.... (wait... I just did it...). However, I would be curious to see their May numbers.
 
The visionaries of the sport were not concern about the bottom line, there just wanted to share their love of the sport with others.

Trust me that philosophy is longgggg gone ! Those visionaries didn't have public shareholders and tons of bank debt. They also didn't have "Summit Hotels", high speed quads, 98% snowmaking coverage and on-mountain condos. There's an old saying about the ski industry..."if you want to make a small fortune, start with a big one !"
 
Sugarloafer":2zm0gwwp said:
The visionaries of the sport were not concern about the bottom line, there just wanted to share their love of the sport with others.

Trust me that philosophy is longgggg gone ! Those visionaries didn't have public shareholders and tons of bank debt. They also didn't have "Summit Hotels", high speed quads, 98% snowmaking coverage and on-mountain condos. There's an old saying about the ski industry..."if you want to make a small fortune, start with a big one !"

Exactely, but there are still a few rare ones that are going against the general trend in the industry.

Why cannot it be different? Why did some get so much in debt? Bad decisions were made, it's all a question of choices and not living behond our means. Is the actually skiing better with all these condos, high speed quads, 98% snowmaking coverage, perfect gromming, heated gondolas with music pipped-in :?: :?: :?:

Most of the industry has painted itself in a corner with all these improvement :roll: , they need to think outside the box and redefine themselves.
 
Patrick":dr7yx0sw said:
Sugarloafer":dr7yx0sw said:
The visionaries of the sport were not concern about the bottom line, there just wanted to share their love of the sport with others.

Trust me that philosophy is longgggg gone ! Those visionaries didn't have public shareholders and tons of bank debt. They also didn't have "Summit Hotels", high speed quads, 98% snowmaking coverage and on-mountain condos. There's an old saying about the ski industry..."if you want to make a small fortune, start with a big one !"

Exactely, but there are still a few rare ones that are going against the general trend in the industry.

Why cannot it be different? Why did some get so much in debt? Bad decisions were made, it's all a question of choices and not living behond our means. Is the actually skiing better with all these condos, high speed quads, 98% snowmaking coverage, perfect gromming, heated gondolas with music pipped-in :?: :?: :?:

Most of the industry has painted itself in a corner with all these improvement :roll: , they need to think outside the box and redefine themselves.


You can pretty much set the date to June, 1996. That's when the American Skiing Co bought Ski Ltd for $137 million. Shortly afterwards, the Killington double chair was gone. Fall skiing became a pickup truck ride and May & June skiing moved from Downdraft to Superstar.
 
some of this commentary by certain individuals is striking me as a little bit self righteous. i'm not condeming anyone here as i agree to some extent with SOME of the ideas...believe me, i am not happy at all about K not spinning based on cd's excellent report...
but one thing that i think is being overlooked amid all this complaining about the moderninzing of the infrastrucure as being a major source of evil is the , in my opinion, obviously different cost structure that has emerged for areas in terms of insurance costs.
i don't know if all of this particular problem can be blamed on the areas.... " people suing ski areas should be shot " -scot schmidt " circa 1987 or so. is that too simplistic?... to some degree, i suppose,,,,but there is a lot of truth behind the point....
i like high speed quads... i like to ski as much as i can.... i don't have a problem with superstar being K's spring skiing area.... i think it's as close to a perfect lay out as there could be.....and for all the ridiculous hammering K takes, jay peak, sugarloaf and all the other northern climate friendly spring skiings areas shut it down long before K does....some years , it seems ( like last year ) the weather kills the season at a point . some years like this , the mamagement kills the season . i just don't see it as an outrage that K does not spin lifts to access 5 broken up patches of snow likelast year....i do , however feel a great disappointment and yes a feeling of sickness/outrage when i read cd's report ( which most of us had a feel was the case ) that the lifts are closed.... the rigidity of the policy is the problem... i'm starting to think that the weather is the real major influnence on how long a trail like SS with have snow on it... even more than the amount of snow that is made .....this spring has obviously been ideal up in K to preserve the snow..... last year it sure was not..... now if that conspiracy theory of last year obut them intentionally trying to knock down the base is true, then my point is much weaker....an areas decision to install a new high speed quad or to invest in groomers or any other evil " moderization " is a one time outlay for that particular item... soaring insurance costs that areas can only partially regulate are a cost that i think, plays a much bigger factor in management decisisons....the public bears some of the responsibilty for these soaring insurance costs,,, imo....
the other thing that i find most annoying is this idea that having a limited number of trails available to ski either late or early season should automatically trigger a massive discount of the cost of a ticket..... i think that is ridiculous.... a reduced number of trails is naturally going to result in a reduced number of skiers who have the philosophy that they need to ski a different run , every run , in order to have a fulfilling ski day... there is nothing wrong with that ... but not everyone feels that way....i don't see in any way how it is unreasonable for an area to have a fixed price throughout the season.... the reduced pool of revenue resulting from less skiers needs to be made up somehow from the business point of view... if it's not worth it to you, don't go... i'm not advocating for higher daily ticket prices.... i'm advocating for consistent prices.... if you go to a baseball game in sept in the middle of a pennant race, the price of the ticket is the same as the price would be if you were at the same game and the home town team was 33 1'/2 games out of first place... is it less exciting? for some some yes... for some , who view the draw as just as much about the essence of the game as the percieved level of excitment generated by external circumstances, no....for those, the experience would still be worth paying for the ticket..... are there less of these people?.. obvioulsy, as most teams 33 1/2 games out in sept play to half empty stadiums... but the ones who go, still pay full price.....
the other sports analogy i would throw out is a comparison to season tickets to the big 4 sports and season pass tickets. while i believe there some small discount provided to major league sports season ticket holders, there is no way it approaches the level of discount given to skiing season pass holders....there is no way that a major leage season ticket holder can reduce his per game cost by anywhere close to the amount that even just an average , not a sickie, ski season pass holder can reduce his cost per ski day.....a certain individual who generally makes no sense and likes to call names feels that it is simply an outrage that one would rather pay $600 instead of 300$ in order to help extend a season :? ..... i think most skiers who are not bothered by skiing on surfaces that are anything but perfect feb packed powder would disagree
 
Why did some get so much in debt?

Many of them forgot about their core business (providing good skiing...its all about the terrain and the snow, dummy !) and over-leveraged themselves on real estate expansions and buying up other resorts. ASC did both of these at the wrong time in the economic cycle...they're kind of a classic B-school case study on how not to run your business.
 
i'm not sure who sugarloafer is quoting with the debt quote in his post but my question is can sugarloafer put up a post without calling someone an idiot or a dummy?
 
My impression is that the ski area liability issue is less of a crisis now than in the 1980's. Colorado for one has passed an almost airtight law about skiers assuming risk. Since the ski industry is as important relatively to Vermont as to Colorado I'd be surprised if there hasn't been a similar move to protect a key in-state industry. But one of you easterners might know more.

My discussion with Mammoth management about the Value Passes indicates that the areas do track their use and adjust the program accordingly. I suspect the average ASC pass is not being used at a level that is depriving ASC of significant revenue.

I'm not offended in the slightest by Sugarloafer using the term "dummy" in his last post. There are enough areas run by corporations (Intrawest at Whistler, Mammoth) and cash-tight mom-and-pops (Baldy) that are flexible to make the case that ASC is not managing Killington's late season intelligently.
 
a certain individual who generally makes no sense and likes to call names feels that it is simply an outrage that one would rather pay $600 instead of 300$ in order to help extend a season Confused ..... i think most skiers who are not bothered by skiing on surfaces that are anything but perfect feb packed powder would disagree

I'm assuming you're making reference to a dialogue we had on this topic on another thread. Let me see if I can make this real simple. I'll make the following assumptions:
1) 2003/2004 Season Pass price $1,100
2) 2004/2005 Season Pass price $600 (ASC Gold Pass $599 rounded)
3) Year over year savings $500
4) Number of extra ski days in an extended season 12 (6weeks@2days/wk)

All I'm suggesting is that I would gladly give up the very early or very late season skiing to save the $500 because these days don't really translate into full days of skiing for me. Now, if you ski a 1/2 day of during that extended timeframe the cost is over $80 per day. Most people would think that's pretty expensive. Even the mountains think its expensive ...that's why they offer discounted day tickets to attract people that time of year. As I previously stated a limited amount of open terrain makes a "full day" of skiing boring, so I usually ski a half a day and mountain bike a half a day. Also, contrary to what you say, Sugarloaf is absolutely jam packed during these early season days because of discounted day tickets and early season race training by the Carrabassett Valley Academy kids and the Colby College ski team. The place is a mad house with a mix of inexperienced skiers and racers on limited terrain...not worth $80 to me. I'm not "outraged" by the prospect of spending the extra $500, but it wouldn't be my preference.

It sounds like you purchased a $349 ASC Pass, which if I'm not mistaken has 14 blackout days (could be less if you bought it early enough, I think). I find it somewhat hypocritical for you to complain about the length of the season, when you don't even buy a full season pass. Its pretty simple...pay an extra $250 and you get to ski an extra 14 days when the conditions are almost guaranteed to be better. Trust me....even Scot Schmidt would think this is a good deal !!!

Other observations on your post :
1) The impact of legal liability on ski area costs pales in comparison to all the other bad decisions they made I.E real estate investments and resort expansion.
2) Your Red Sox analysis doesn't work. Yes, you pay the same price for every game and you always get 9 innings. The level of pleasure derived from this can vary depending on how the team does, but you always get your 9 innings. In skiing you don't always get a full mountain to ski on; thus the reason for discounted early season tickets. The level of pleasure derived from skiing can frequently vary depending on weather, snowfall etc., but no matter what you don't get a full mountain to ski on all season. There's no comparison between the two.
3) The imbedded discount in ski season passes exists only if your alternative is buying day tickets. This doesn't happen for me. Since I own a home at the Loaf, its highly unlikely that I won't buy a pass. If you ski consistently at one mountain, this "savings" is like kidding yourself that you got a discount when you bought furniture...its always on "sale" !!
 
My impression is that the ski area liability issue is less of a crisis now than in the 1980's. Colorado for one has passed an almost airtight law about skiers assuming risk. Since the ski industry is as important relatively to Vermont as to Colorado I'd be surprised if there hasn't been a similar move to protect a key in-state industry. But one of you easterners might know more.
i am unfamiliar with the exact laws, but regardless of whether ski area law suits are successful, they are still costly in the legal department. i would guess the insurance would cover the cost of payment if a law suit is successful, but the ski area has to pay legal fees and settlements regardless. and the insurance is high from what i hear from industry reps in the east that i have heard from. but i think tony is correct in pointing out that it is not a horrible situation in which it is an excessive cost especially when compared to snow making costs which is the make or break point for many ski areas in the east.
 
what i don't understand is why they would blow all that snow and then close with all that 'product' on the hill. blowing all that snow in the first place has to cost a lot more than running the lift another weekend or two so they could perhaps make some of that money back. just doesn't make sense. with good weather i'm sure they'd do pretty good business. it is really sickening.
 
It sounds like you purchased a $349 ASC Pass said:
Nah, not that simple. You're conjuring a tradeoff that doesn't exist. Many of us would gladly pay more for a return to the once-proud early and (especially) late tradition, but the $250 you're talking about just buys the busiest 14 holiday/weekend days, hardly what I consider "guaranteed to be better". Even thinking purely of the snow, there's no such thing as a day of "guaranteed better" conditions in the east. Give me a warm soft spring day on a single trail over an entire mountain of rain/freeze plexiglass (and don't forget the crowds) any time!
 
skiadikt":15mx1bl7 said:
what i don't understand is why they would blow all that snow and then close with all that 'product' on the hill. blowing all that snow in the first place has to cost a lot more than running the lift another weekend or two so they could perhaps make some of that money back. just doesn't make sense. with good weather i'm sure they'd do pretty good business. it is really sickening.
spot on skiadikt. it is a complete waste of return on investment. but to ASC, looking at sup being covered T2B and looking to stay that way until june 1st probably indicates to ASC big wigs that they blew too much snow :roll: -- instead of what it should mean, they could have stayed open longer.

and cd is right on about that trade off not existing. buying a full season pass just puts more money into ASC's pockets. if anything, selling more full everyday passes would probably decrease the chances of ASC going long because the people buying full passes aren't skiing late season, they bought the pass to ski during peak. hardcore skiers that are all about maxing out their ski days for the cheapest price wouldn't justify the extra money for a few extra crowded holiday ski days.
 
skiadikt":1ub04gi7 said:
what i don't understand is why they would blow all that snow and then close with all that 'product' on the hill. blowing all that snow in the first place has to cost a lot more than running the lift another weekend or two so they could perhaps make some of that money back. just doesn't make sense. with good weather i'm sure they'd do pretty good business. it is really sickening.

i think the were making sure the could atleast stay open to mid may because the expect the worst like last year and prepare for it, but since the already made all that snow i think they should open, dont open midweek i no thats a waste, but atleast open on weekends.... i really dont think you will lose money running one chair on a nice sunny and warm weekend, weather looks bad just dont open.
 
if anything, selling more full everyday passes would probably decrease the chances of ASC going long because the people buying full passes aren't skiing late season, they bought the pass to ski during peak.

What the hell makes you think that's the case ? Lot's of people, myself included, ski from opening weekend to closing weekend. Most of these people buy these passes because they have families and they cover vacation weeks.

hardcore skiers that are all about maxing out their ski days for the cheapest price wouldn't justify the extra money for a few extra crowded holiday ski days.

Go for it !!!! :lol: This logic is why Sugarloaf was a ghost town for the first half of vacation week this year. It was sunny every day and the whole mountain was open, including the Snowfields...awesome week. Frankly, the full season pass holders are relying on you guys to keep the crowds down during the vacation weeks. If you'd rather take that money and ski in early November, its fine with me. Maybe ASC did something smart designing their pass pricing like this...sounds like everyone is happy !

BTW, I'd be interested in hearing your definition of "hardcore. " Is it someone who can quote Scot Schmidt ?? I think if all you hardcore guys were really hardcore you'd be slapping your skins on and skiing instead of being in here whining about it ! Shut up and ski ...its free !
 
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