Killington closing day 5/11/04

anonymous consistently uses a figure of 40 to 50 grand per night to make snow on the ss trail... <BR>1) he refuses to provide any verification for that claim <BR>2) he uses a number ( 40 to 50 k ) in his argument that supports his argument and also uses a number ( 10 mid week skiers ) which is obviously not true, to support his argument. it's obvious even to the biggest simp, that there are more than 10 midweek skiers at k in the spring. i won't claim to know how much it cost to run the snow guns on SS per night, ( i'd be nice if someone from k would come on here and give some legit info ) but anyone on this chat who is accepting the claim by this guy anonymous of 40 to 50 k per night as being necessarily true when he refuses to provide any substantiation or basis of fact and when a known reliable source like tony c puts out a figure ( that even he admits may not be accurate ) that is almost 4 times less than that for another area and trail, well, let's just say that anonymous' premise becomes highly suspect. this guy is saying that it would cost 1.6 million dollars to lay down a 20 foot base on SS over the course of a winter/certain amount of days. i have to believe that the base depth on SS has been done before. i refuse to believe that a ski area outlayed 1.6 million dollars to do it... that's a ludicrous figure. almost as ludicrous as this guy's claims and statements ( and why won't you answer the questions about bumps? and the questions about when you contadict yourself... A man's m.o is to respond/reply to questions he has a response to and to ignore the one's he does not.. this exposes him as having an agenda.. this gets lost in a long thread like this with all the various posts.. some one else ought to call this guy on the carpet too. ) " i can't reveal my sources "...what are you, anonymous, bob woodward and watergate? <BR>and unlike you A man, i can respond to your questions... the hockey analysis come from the fact that arficial means are used to maintain ice in the summer time in rinks. ice generally is a natural product of the winter time. so , one should be able to understand that ice hockey, would, without artifical means, be a winter time activity. snow also , in most worlds ( not sure what world u are living in A man ) is a winter product, but also, through artificial means , can be made/maintained artificially during times that are not considered winter periods. as for your assertion that the figure used to make the snow on the SS could be used for the host of other things you name, i just outright dispute your figure of 40 to 50 K / 1.6 million... you might be right, why won't you go on the record and prove it. based on what you have said, i could make a claim of less than one third of figure and have as much credibiility as you have, which is none, because you refuse to document your claim... that's why i don't take any of your arguments seriously ... i think your whole premise may be flawed
 
They had to cut back on the snowmaking on Superstar ever since they invested in that fancy, expensive "WELCOME TO SUPERSTAR GLACIER!!!!!" sign at the top... They barely even had money left after that big investment to renovate their slopeside sushi bar -- and come on, if you're not at Killington to bathe in the loving aura of the Jersey folk who never leave the lodge (the TARGET MARKET as they are invariably referred to back in the board room of companies like ASC or Intrawest), then are you really living life? I know that there is very little which gives me more enjoyment than blowing $70 US on a lift ticket for 3 runs before I pack it in to watch the NFL playoffs with all the other modern day Killington regulars! At least Killington isnt as aggressive as Tremblant yet about conning people into buying condos as they chow down on their $14 rubbery hamburger.... <BR> <BR>-Sven
 
anonymous its not about us wanting killington to be the place. It is that they used to be the place and therefore at least owe it to the die hard skiers to justify not doing it in the future. They can't just up and stop doing things and expect our opinions of the place to stay the same. It ashame they dont have the self respect to just admit that they are not what they used to be, and go after a different group of skiers. <BR> <BR>porter
 
I 100% agree with you porter, tradition dictated that Killington was the first to open and the last to close in the east. The extra snowmaking effort at both ends did not cause ASC's financial trouble, poor management did. It was clear that early season skiing was not taken seriously since the K1 gondola was installed in 1998. October 24th 1998 was my last October day at Killington because the gondola-truck arangement sucked. Superstar is not really the wrong trail for late season skiing so much as it is now apparent that it is located at the wrong ski area.
 
"Superstar is not really the wrong trail for late season skiing so much as it is now apparent that it is located at the wrong ski area." <BR> <BR>-right on.
 
You guys keep dismissing the transport lift solution. The cost of running lifts is peanuts compared to the snowmaking issue. Mt. Baldy has little money and cannot risk going into debt, yet they ran a transport lift until June 7 when they had natural snow. From what most people on this thread have said about snow preservation, the saving in reduced snowmaking on Glades/Canyon vs. Superstar will offset many times over the cost of using the K1 Gondola as a transport lift for any given closing date you choose. And if you make the same amount of snow you probably get at least one more weekend at the start of the season and 3-4 at the end. <BR> <BR>With regard to cost of snowmaking, it would be helpful to get some concrete numbers. I didn't necessarily see a contradiction between 14K at Snow Summit (225 acres and 1,200 vertical) and what I presume could be much bigger numbers at Killington. But I also know from the Snow Summit example that there is a big difference between snowmaking coverage and snowmaking capacity. Can a ski area direct 100% of its snowmaking capacity to one trail? When Killington was stockpiling Superstar, was it at the expense of other trails? Or are just talking about March, when they otherwise would not have made snow anyway and it's a true marginal cost?
 
Killington is the right area for extended seasons in the East. There may be other areas with similar potential but none clearly better. Location/convenience is the key driver of shoulder season skiing viability and Killington has that advantage to the largest number of skiers. <BR> <BR>Mt. Bachelor abandoned its superior June skiing because the Portland skiers were unwilling to go farther than Mt. Hood in spring/summer. There is a long list of western areas with great spring potential (Taos as discussed earlier as an example) that close shop in early April due to location. Yet mom-and-pop Mt. Baldy can run until June 7 in El Nino 1998 because it's one hour from L.A.
 
I agree with you on the long drive from Mt Hood to Batchelor,It took me about 3 1/2 hours. What about Mt Hood Meadows, they now close fairly early also? I remember them skiing into June or even later.
 
Meadows faces mostly east to southeast and closes first weekend of May. It's more expansive than Timberline but not as big as Bachelor. <BR> <BR>Bachelor has huge advantages in late season IMHO. <BR>1) Higher elevation <BR>2) Mostly north facing <BR>3) Mt. Hood has a marine climate with erratic overnight freezing in spring. Bachelor is east of the Cascade Crest, low humidity and it usually freezes overnight. <BR> <BR>In 1990 I skied 2 hours in the rain at Timberline on May 2 and had 4 hours per day of some of the finest corn in my life on May 3 and 4 at Bachelor. <BR> <BR>Bachelor has the highest quality, most consistent lift serviced spring skiing in North America IMHO. That's why it was a shame to see them give up June.
 
My brother just skied Bachelor last saturday, but the weather was so bad the summit express lift did not operate with the alternate snow,sleet and rain. He skied at Timberline on sunday with 6" of new Concrete snow, but again only the Magic Mile was open. When I skied Bachelor on May 16th 1999, the weather was crystal clear with excellent spring conditions top to bottom with a 70-140" base. The only part that I disliked was the automatic ticket gate at each lift maze, that was anoying.
 
On the cost of snowmaking, you're right Joe, I am taking for granted that anonymous is in the know. <BR> <BR>I've seen a few numbers mentioned in books and publications why I was surprised how much it was. One of the numbers I heard was one for Sugarbush early skiing post-ASC. <BR> <BR>Some of the numbers which I remember where I have seen them are in Hal Clifford excellent book, "Downhill Slide"
 
i could see 40 to 50 k being the cost per night when k's system is running at 100% of max output ( that is, covering a lot more than just SS ). i'll say it again, this whole issue of cost benefit analysis for the late season is being unfairly driven by the focus on the revenue gained during the operation. this was not really an issue prior to the company's bad investments/consolidation. late season spring skiing is not what is killing ASC. and shutting down SS on may 12 and blowing a certain percentage less snow on SS throughout the season is not going to make aASC solvent again. it's unfair to blame spring skiing and it's relative lack of revenues for the decisons being made by the co. to cut the season... <BR> i have to agree w/ tony c on one thing.. i think k is the place for the late season. k itself makes enough money to absorb the reduced revenue factor associated with spinning in may. but they don't make enough to absorb this if they are funneling money to other areas' bottom lines. i don't even really have a problem with the SS trail, but could see how antoher trail at K might work better. for what it's worth, ( this is not confirmed ) and i put this up a few weeks ago, my buddy and i were told by a mid level manager named ray that the electical cost of SS lift is around 100 per hour. i would not contend this is necessarily accurate, but it is what i was told by this guy who seemed legit.
 
Just a suggestion to JOEGM in the interest of coherency. <BR> <BR>Use paragraghs...... <BR> <BR>You may be making the most cogent points in the world, but they are near impossible to read in your current format. <BR> <BR>It may take you longer to type your manifestos, but if you really want to make your points heard, I would suggest busting out your text into several paragraphs. <BR> <BR>Unless it is a system input issue, and in that case forget what I said... <BR> <BR>Just a suggestion.
 
k itself makes enough money to absorb the reduced revenue factor associated with spinning in may. <BR> <BR>Here's another suggestion, write sentences that make the least bit of sense.
 
Ok, I guess that it's time I showed my face around here and weighed in on the important issues. <BR> <BR>First of all, thanks for campaining on my behalf Anonymous, i've got a sack here labelled "hush money" for you. <BR> <BR>Second: I thought it would be a great marketing strategy to plow millions of dollars into capital investments in and around the ASC resorts without much Return on Investment potential. <BR> <BR>Third: Knowing that we were never going to get out of the red, I decided that we should change the the focus of the resort from a hardcore-skier-centric to one that was more financially feasible for us: pay a ton of cash for season's pass/ticket <BR>and please don't ask us to provide the same services that we provided in the past. <BR> <BR>Now that I've done all that, i think it's a good idea to dump all my stock and skip town. <BR> <BR>So long Suckers
 
Lol, another visit from "Les Otten", it's been a while ! <BR> <BR>Continue guys, only 4 messages remaining to equal the all time record on FTO <IMG SRC="http://www.firsttracksonline.com/discus2/clipart/happy.gif" ALT=":)"> but I somehow wonder a little bit why we do pass so much time talking about a ski area... that is just "another ski area" !
 
not even a good one at that, even when it was run by SKI Corp. it sucked, little 1/3 trails and confusing layout
 
Killington would be best run by a single owner or family ownership IMO.Someone with some passion and a vision.A board of directors is always under pressure by it's stockholders and will be looking to skim every penny it can.A board of directors arent at the mountain every day. <BR>Killington doesnt need to compete with anyone as ASC has gobbled up alot of it's competition.Big K used to have to compete with Sunday River when Les left K and bought S.R..They also competed with Mt. Snow and Sugarloaf.Now Okemo and Stowe are it's only real threat.And now we are seeing Okemo(owned by a husband and wife I belive,Marc?)lureing away the K diehards. <BR>ASC needs to go along with Booth Creek and the Gillette Company.More competition for the $$ will make longer seasons and resorts will get back thier individualities again. <BR>((* <BR>*))NHPH
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1><B>Quote:</B></FONT><P>Okemo(owned by a husband and wife I belive,Marc?)<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR>Correct.
 
I can't resist to make it to 140 ! <BR> <BR>All I could say now is that if we want to get some late skiing (lifted), we have to convince more people that skiing in may (and june) is cool and that they must try it. <BR> <BR>Once enough people will want it, it will become profitable for some ski areas and we'll have some late season skiing. <BR> <BR>Let's go, when you're skiing in the early season, talk to the people in the lifts, about late season fun. Talk to your friends. Only a very little percentage of the population knows that late season skiing is sooo nice. <BR> <BR>I don't think we'll see some K's closing day on june 23 or so, but at least a ski area could remain open until Memorial day without walking 50% of the trail, it would be quite correct and it could be even possible to make some profits, which would be enough impossible, I think, opening up to late june.
 
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