Killington Confirms May 15 Closing Date
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Patrick
Well-known member
10 trails this weekend :!: :!: :!: Pathetic. :roll:
This confirms once again how much the've fallen. How much are they charging for that :?:
Sugarloaf is planning to have 101 trails open for this weekend (closing on Sunday). Same owner as Kmart.
Ste.Anne had 30 runs open today.
This confirms once again how much the've fallen. How much are they charging for that :?:
Sugarloaf is planning to have 101 trails open for this weekend (closing on Sunday). Same owner as Kmart.
Ste.Anne had 30 runs open today.
Geoff
New member
Patrick":9055bbns said:
That's 10 by the Killington counting method. There are 3 distinct ways down. Superstar under the lift. Skyelark. Bittersweet. When they saw rain for the weekend, they quickly chopped back to 1 lift and laid off most of the staff. It's even more pathetic than you think.
With some rope ducking and some walking on the connecting trail back to the lift, you can also ski upper Vertigo, Panic Button to middle Needles Eye, upper Dream Maker, and upper Skyeburst. With a 15 minute walk up the connecting trail called Launch Pad from the top of Superstar, you can still ski most of the main mountian including Cascade, Double Dipper, and East Fall. You'll have to walk some of the runout from those trails. When we get sun again, there will be some fun to be had if you're willing to walk a little.
Thanks. The article/press release seemed to be more about getting the closing date out there than crowing about the conditions. Didn't really need the closing date "confirmed", the only question for me is whether they'll try to close even earlier! Saying the trail crew was "hard at work" wasn't necessarily a good thing since, as we saw last year, the best way to make the snow last is to leave it alone!
Coincidentally I saw today an item on New England Cable News that noted the closing of Sunday River and Sugarloaf as of Sunday, which immediately segued into an item about VT areas reporting a good year. The odd thing was that even though the "news" items likely stemmed from ASC video press releases, nowhere was there any mention whatsoever of the fact that Kmart is still open! Of course, in the old days the press releases would focus on precisely that.
I was at Kmart last Tues 4/19 and it was one of the best spring days I've ever had there, w/ gorgeous warm weather and snow conditions, mostly bumps with a few groomers. Even the trees (except those facing directly south) were skiable, albeit w/ lotsa debris on the snow. They were running the K1, Superstar and Canyon lifts with virtually all associated terrain open, incl. trails down Snowden, connection to Skye, etc. Even a few trails with bare spots and/or thin connections were open in the purest "ski it if you can" tradition. For a few brief hours I was actually transported back to the good old days of K as a true skiers mt. and I hereby give them kudos for it. I couldn't go on Wed but was chomping at the bit to do so on Thurs. Imagine my surprise to check the report Thurs morning only to find that just 48 hours later it had all been chopped back to just the Superstar lift and immediately adjacent runs, once again leaving acres and acres of letter perfect conditions to rot. The trails in the basin from K peak down to the bottom of the Canyon chair will all be great for quite awhile.
Coincidentally I saw today an item on New England Cable News that noted the closing of Sunday River and Sugarloaf as of Sunday, which immediately segued into an item about VT areas reporting a good year. The odd thing was that even though the "news" items likely stemmed from ASC video press releases, nowhere was there any mention whatsoever of the fact that Kmart is still open! Of course, in the old days the press releases would focus on precisely that.
I was at Kmart last Tues 4/19 and it was one of the best spring days I've ever had there, w/ gorgeous warm weather and snow conditions, mostly bumps with a few groomers. Even the trees (except those facing directly south) were skiable, albeit w/ lotsa debris on the snow. They were running the K1, Superstar and Canyon lifts with virtually all associated terrain open, incl. trails down Snowden, connection to Skye, etc. Even a few trails with bare spots and/or thin connections were open in the purest "ski it if you can" tradition. For a few brief hours I was actually transported back to the good old days of K as a true skiers mt. and I hereby give them kudos for it. I couldn't go on Wed but was chomping at the bit to do so on Thurs. Imagine my surprise to check the report Thurs morning only to find that just 48 hours later it had all been chopped back to just the Superstar lift and immediately adjacent runs, once again leaving acres and acres of letter perfect conditions to rot. The trails in the basin from K peak down to the bottom of the Canyon chair will all be great for quite awhile.
Sugarloafer
New member
What's sad is that if ASC feels the need to offer "late" spring skiing, they could offer a legitimate product by keeping Sugarloaf open...I skied last weekend there and with no exaggeration, there is hardly a bare spot on the mountain....they're buried! The Saturday rain every where else was 3 " of fresh up there..a pleasant surprise on the last weekend of the season. Instead, they'll try to squeeze a few more bucks from the Big Apple crowd by rolling out the crap at Killington.
I'll be surprised if the locals aren't hiking and skiing the Loaf in June ! :wink:
I'll be surprised if the locals aren't hiking and skiing the Loaf in June ! :wink:
Sugarloafer":68ukbp8c said:
But moose don't ski. Sugarloaf is 4.5 hours of driving from the only population center that could feed it late-season skiers, and once the percentage of late-season diehards is applied to that single population base, you realize that the place would lose gobs of cash as a late-season operation. K-Mart, by comparison, has not only Boston but also NYC, NJ, Philadelphia, CT, etc. to draw from within a reasonable drive. It's pure economics at play here. Take one look at annual skier visits -- IIRC, Sugarloaf does less than 200,000 visits per year overall.
Another factor to consider is the lift arrangement. This season may be an anomaly, but remember that all of Sugarloaf's lifts start just about from the base of the mountain at around 1,600 feet. Superstar, by comparison IIRC, is at around 2,000 feet at the bottom or slightly higher. Those low elevation flatter areas are by far the first to melt out, as Stowe learned the hard way this spring. Of course, it made even more sense when K had the double with a midstation, but that's a whole separate issue altogether.
admin says:
elevation didn't matter in the east i thought? it's whether or not you're up
north or in the south. in the west, it's different. however, with regards to
the Loaf and Kmart elevations, being on the east, the fact is that the Loaf
is farther north. that means colder temps. if Mt Washington was in
Worcester (Wustah) than it'd all be melted by now, even still with the
elevation and snow it has recieved this year, just because it's further south.
and stowe had a terrible year. almost 4' less than the Loaf and Kmart.
elevation didn't matter in the east i thought? it's whether or not you're up
north or in the south. in the west, it's different. however, with regards to
the Loaf and Kmart elevations, being on the east, the fact is that the Loaf
is farther north. that means colder temps. if Mt Washington was in
Worcester (Wustah) than it'd all be melted by now, even still with the
elevation and snow it has recieved this year, just because it's further south.
and stowe had a terrible year. almost 4' less than the Loaf and Kmart.
hamdog":2ca3ysa0 said:
Not true at all. It matters for snowfall, for early-season skiing, and for late-season melt-out.
As for snowfall, for a case in point examine Cannon vs Loon. They're only 10 miles or so apart, but worlds apart weather-wise. By comparison to Cannon, Loon is a very low-elevation ski area. As for early- and late-season skiing, it's all about where the frost line sits. The ground needs to be frozen for early snows to stick, and as the frost line creeps upward low elevation snows are the first to go. Those lower slopes also tend to be less steep, thereby receiving more direct sunlight.
As for latitude, don't forget that Sugarloaf is much closer to the (relatively) warm Atlantic than many interior mountains at a lower latitude. That's one giant 45-degree radiator to contend with, so the climatic change might not be as significant as the difference in latitude might suggest.
So, even by the East's more modest elevations, elevation does matter, but it's just one of many factors involved.
hamdog":2ca3ysa0 said:
Hardly. Again, Sugarloaf this season was a bit of an anomaly. Just about all of New England was hurting until late January, but then Ullr finally delivered, and delivered big. Powderfreak, or other Stowe regulars will certainly take exception to your "terrible" classifier.
Patrick
Well-known member
Admin":2avlq6k6 said:
Regardless of lift arrangement at Sugarloaf (never been an issue the few times I showed up there on closing weekend in the past), Sugarloaf is too far to make economic sense in the late season, I totally agree with Marc than strenching Sugarloaf doesn't make any economic sense. The same could be said of most areas. Ste.Anne also had fresh snow on Saturday (a few inches) and all it's north side terrain in Winter conditions (open and very good coverage). The place was deserted (mind you it's was raining everywhere expect the North side). If MSA which, it's easily add a few more weeks in May, but it's would be hard to justify. The mountain is only 30 minutes from Quebec City (700,000).
Tremblant is 90 minutes from Montreal (3,500,000), but they stopped on the April 17th with great conditions. Sugarloaf is fare from major metropolitan areas (MTL is 3.5 hours away), on the other hand Kmart is at the centre of it all. MTL (185 miles - 3hr), Boston, Hartfort, etc. Enough for a die-hard day drive.
powderfreak
New member
hamdog":3u6igpt7 said:
A few points I'd like to clarify. Elevation makes a huge difference in the east as it does in the west. How else would you explain that every ski area/higher elevation area from Garret County, Maryland down to Asheville, North Carolina picked up anywhere from 3-12" of snowfall this past weekend while it was in the 60's up here in Vermont and raining? The elevations increase as you head south and that makes a world of difference in being an equalizer, if you will.
1,000 feet asl (above sea level) up in northern Vermont will definitely get you further than 1,000 ft asl in southern NY with regards to retaining a snowpack in the spring...but north facing slopes of the Catskills in NY (2,000-3,500ft asl in elevation) held snow much longer than north facing spots here in the Champlain Valley and low elevations throughout other portions of northern VT some 150 miles further north.
Basically, I'm trying to say that from my years of watching New England snowpack, snowfall, and general winter weather...elevation plays a huge role, as does slope aspect. All other things equal, then latitude does play a role but not as much as you'd think...at least not the difference between Killington and Sugarloaf. Areas up in Quebec and the Chic Chocs are totally different animals.
---------
As for Stowe's rough season...I haven't checked numbers and don't always trust ski areas but generally reguard them as semi-accurate. Sugarloaf did get hammered this season...at least after February 10-12 when the first major storm rolled through northern New England. It continued to snow for about a month straight and then left as quickly as it came. I'd wager that we saw just about as good of a season in northern VT as Killington did although year end totals may suggest more accumulation. Southern VT got hit more-so earlier in the season (Dec-early Feb) while southern New England was setting records. Then the snow switched northward and by April 1, the natural snow depth at Stowe was at or above that of Killington's.
I dunno...maybe it was a rough season up here but I don't know...here UVM'er Adub lets you decide:
http://tinyurl.com/cpsql
Geoff
New member
powderfreak":3oq1k0gd said:
Killington was 40" below average. Probably 1/3 of that melted out in early thaws. The natural snow trails had acceptable snow pack in early to mid-March but the base depths were so poor that everything melted out quickly. Anything that faced the sun was gone by the last weekend in March.
Chromer
New member
FWIW, Sugarloaf SUCKED until March. Almost nothing in December. Lots of clear and cold in January. A little snow in February. About normal in March though we had several inches of rain too. Below normal snowfall for April.
Averages don't mean much at the 'Loaf though. I think I remember that Tony's data indicates we have a very large standard deviation (> 50 inches, IIRC), which means lots of variability in snowfall year to year.
Averages don't mean much at the 'Loaf though. I think I remember that Tony's data indicates we have a very large standard deviation (> 50 inches, IIRC), which means lots of variability in snowfall year to year.
Admin your claim that Sugarloaf recieves less than 200,000 visits a year is WRONG, Sugarloaf had skier visits this year of around 330,000 and hasnt had less than 300,000 for quite a few years
BTW even killington is losing money staying open late
K2Trav's Guide To Sugarloaf/USA
BTW even killington is losing money staying open late
K2Trav's Guide To Sugarloaf/USA
riverc0il
New member
but is K really loosing money staying open late? perhaps enough people buy season passes because of early/late season skiing that they have already made their late season money. know what i am saying? clearly, their day ticket passes don't pay for late season passes, but what percentage of people at kmart are actually paying for day tickets once they are down to superstar?k2trav":2ifu6at6 said:
on the surface it looks like they are loosing money, but when you factor in many people would not have bought season passes if kmart closed when all the other areas closed, those extra season passes just might pay for the late season skiing.
Anyone have any idea what the marginal cost of K staying open an extra day is? I think it's likely to be pretty low. I remember that a few years ago (during the Great Winter) MRG was in great skiing shape into mid-April. They said that it costs them $500/day to be open so as long as they got at least 10-12 lift ticket sales per day, they'd stay open. I'd guess it costs K a little more than this, but it's not like we're talking about hundreds of thousands of bucks here.
Of course, if you add in the cost of snowmaking so they still have snow this late the cost goes up. But right now, given the snowpack they have, I doubt it actually costs them much at all to be open.
Of course, if you add in the cost of snowmaking so they still have snow this late the cost goes up. But right now, given the snowpack they have, I doubt it actually costs them much at all to be open.
Marginal cost in this situation is low, as evidenced by Baldy staying open. There were probably ~200 people there Sat. April 16 with excellent spring conditions and midweek it's really empty. And Baldy has to run 3 lifts to provide access to Thunder Mt. They do get some non-skier sightseeing business to the Notch and thus run Chair 1 even when there is no skiing.
Baldy is definitely operating daily through at least May 8, and has not set a closing date. They also got about 6 inches new snow yesterday. Very crusty according to Garry, but it will further delay the meltdown.
Baldy is definitely operating daily through at least May 8, and has not set a closing date. They also got about 6 inches new snow yesterday. Very crusty according to Garry, but it will further delay the meltdown.
Geoff
New member
20thSkier":2c5zynl7 said:
For Killington to be open, they need to:
Pay the electric bill for the lift. The motor on a high speed quad is usually between 700 & 900 horsepower. 1 horsepower = .75 kW and motors are usually about 80% efficient. Roughly, running a lift all day is about 8,000 kWh. The CVPS commercial rate is $10.95 per MWh.
I get about $100.00.
Figure it takes about ten people to staff things.
I think a little more than doubling the MRG number would work for Killington. If they didn't sell food, they could probably do it for less than $1,000/day. That's about 25 day tickets at $39 spring rates.