LCC/BCC Conditions

[Marc_C]

From Friaday's avi advisory:

A heartbreaker of a cold front came through last night dropping a measly 2 inches in the Cottonwood Canyons and 5 inches in the Ogden and Logan area mountains. The Salt Lake area mountains will make a valiant attempt to catch up in the next couple hours, but the storm is rapidly dying. The hot tip for the day is to head to the northerly parts of the state where they have been getting a few inches of snow the past couple days in addition to this latest snow. South of I-80, you should hope for the best but prepare for the worst. With the cold temperatures, the pre-existing, wet snow at lower elevations will resemble concrete traffic barriers with just enough of a dusting on top to make them hard to see. Yesterday, I found the pre-existing dry snow to be crusted and tracked-up and in bad need of some freshies. It’s feeling pretty lonely in my cubicle this morning here at the National Weather Service. The only backcountry observation I got from yesterday was a UDOT forecaster who was paid to be out there and he didn’t seem too excited. Temperatures have plummeted to 5 degrees on the highest peaks and 10 degrees on most ridges.

 

[Sharon]

Great thread guys. i went through a bowl of popcorn! Very entertaining.

I love the :snowball fight:

My 2 cents:
-Snowbird is more consistently steeper and the north facing does not require as many huge traverses. More vert per run it seems as well. Better tree skiing (IMO)
-High T is worse than Ho Chi Min (IMO)...seems longer and can have some serious whoop-d-dos, however, I got pretty good at these during my last visit...I used to find them daunting. Takes experience.
-it takes only seconds from the lift to scare myself at Snowbird...never felt scared at Alta

I hope you guys get more snow. It sux here too, as it is 50 degrees and raining in the entire northeast. Skiing is on hold for a while here. Time to get some neglected household chores done this weekend.

 

[Skidog]

I hope you guys get more snow. It sux here too

Yeah we're really hurting with the 400+" that fell already this year.... :roll:

IT DOES NOT SUCK HERE AT ALL!!!!

Oh...you get scared at the bird??? Hmmm and better tree skiing? Craziness. Problem with the bird is not enough trees to break up the clouds on storm days.

M

 

[Admin]

Hmmm and better tree skiing? Craziness.

As is the assertion that the Ho Chi Minh with its omnipresent chocolate chips is somehow better than the T.

seems longer and can have some serious whoop-d-dos

Just hit 'em hot so you only clip the tops. :lol:

 

[Marc_C]

Hmmm and better tree skiing? Craziness.

As is the assertion that the Ho Chi Minh with its omnipresent chocolate chips is somehow better than the T.

You forgot to mention the roots, larger rocks in addition to the chips, the hacked to death bumps, and the super-hard-pack sections where all the snow has blown into the cirque.

 

[Marc_C]

The large pink blobs at the bottom of the Alta topo are half HIKE-TO, NOT TRAVERSE (Baldy Peak and Devil's Castle) terrain.

Absolutely not true.

Baldy Peak:
The vast majority of the north facing Baldy Peak terrain is the Ballroom and Baldy Shoulder - all accessibly by gravity. Yes, if you want the absolute total vert on the Shoulder, it's a hike that adds maybe 100 vert feet - a whole 5 - 10 turns (or only 3 for some). The only reason to hike it is for untracked, not added vert. The only mandatory hiking is for the Baldy Chutes and the Upper Shoulder. So far this season, Main Chute has been open a total of around 14 days, Little and Dog-Leg about 5 days, Upper Shoulder 1 day, and Perla's 0 days.

Devil's Castle:
Yes, some initial hiking - actually a few dozen side steps, then skating/dbl poling interspersed with handfuls of side steps. Once you get around the corner and below the Sugarloaf cliffs, the trails split, the lower one allowing gravity all the way to The Wall. In actuality it's a pretty trivial hike. Takes about as long as getting into Catherine's. Yes, the upper one is a lot more sidestepping to get to the height of land and does take a bit of effort and yields more vert. But the multiple laps on the lower line that you'll do gives a lot more vert than the one or maybe two times you go the upper route. FTO eastern poster Kingslug did 4 laps in the Castle on Wednesday.

 

[Skidog]

Hmmm and better tree skiing? Craziness.

As is the assertion that the Ho Chi Minh with its omnipresent chocolate chips is somehow better than the T.

You forgot to mention the roots, larger rocks in addition to the chips, the hacked to death bumps, and the super-hard-pack sections where all the snow has blown into the cirque.

We have to give Sharon a break she doesnt ski it nearly as much as we do, it can easily be confusing... HA...

In all honestly...both those traverses suck....though I agree the high t is easier to manage...sometimes on the ho chi minh i feel like I might just fall off into the cirque...

M

 

[Sharon]

As is the assertion that the Ho Chi Minh with its omnipresent chocolate chips is somehow better than the T.

You forgot to mention the roots, larger rocks in addition to the chips, the hacked to death bumps, and the super-hard-pack sections where all the snow has blown into the cirque.

We have to give Sharon a break she doesnt ski it nearly as much as we do, it can easily be confusing... HA...

In all honestly...both those traverses suck....though I agree the high t is easier to manage...sometimes on the ho chi minh i feel like I might just fall off into the cirque...
[/quote]

I thought the Ho Chi Min was lower than that...yeah, I don't like it at the top of the cirque, but we hopped on it from Little Cloud and stayed low until we got to the top of the Gad Chutes area. The top of The Cirque scares me...and that's what I meant that I get scared just a short distance from the lifts...just dropping into the Cirque in places can be scarey, and if you have to take a sketch route at the top of one of those chutes in the DNF zone to avoid the rocks to get in...now THAT can be scary and was the most scared I was during that whole trip. I find the traverses more scary than the actual skiing.

I've dinged my bases at the top of the cirque in the past, though this year I found if I stayed low on the Gad side, it wasn't bad at all.

 

[Admin]

I thought the Ho Chi Min was lower than that...yeah, I don't like it at the top of the cirque, but we hopped on it from Little Cloud and stayed low until we got to the top of the Gad Chutes area.

That is the Ho Chi Minh, aka The Cirque Traverse. You're both describing the same thing -- there aren't two traverses. There are, however, two gates -- one that accesses the traverse just below the snow fence below Tower 4 at the top of Regulator Johnson, and another slightly further down -- that just rejoins the same traverse after it drops down from the top of Great Scott and Jaws. Both sections of the Ho Chi Minh suck equally bad.

 

[Marc_C]

I thought the Ho Chi Min was lower than that...yeah, I don't like it at the top of the cirque, but we hopped on it from Little Cloud and stayed low until we got to the top of the Gad Chutes area.

That is the Ho Chi Minh, aka The Cirque Traverse. You're both describing the same thing -- there aren't two traverses. There are, however, two gates -- one that accesses the traverse just below the snow fence below Tower 4 at the top of Regulator Johnson, and another slightly further down -- that just rejoins the same traverse after it drops down from the top of Great Scott and Jaws. Both sections of the Ho Chi Minh suck equally bad.

There's actually a 3rd gate still further down Regulator - it's the Mid-Cirque traverse and runs just a little above the Gad Chutes. It intersects the Cirque traverse, at, well, mid-cirque - right around the Elevator Shaft chute. The Ho Chi Mihn trail is the locals name, and goes all the way to Ptex Point. Then it gets really hairy after that.

Sharon: have you ever taken the HCM all the way to the top of Mach Schnell? If not, do so some day, then tell us about how bad the High T is.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Finally an ally of sorts in Sharon, though she served up a couple of softballs for the Altaphiles.

Snowbird is more consistently steeper and the north facing does not require as many huge traverses. More vert per run it seems as well.

Bingo. I realize that you jaded locals only ski on powder days, but for us peons who fly in from afar the powder days are going to be maybe 20%. The rest of time it's all about terrain, and Snowbird's is better. Not light years better, but enough that other considerations being equal I'll be skiing Snowbird about twice as much as Alta.

High T is worse than Ho Chi Min (IMO)...

This was one of the softballs. No question IMHO Ho Chi Minh has more rocky spots.

have you ever taken the HCM all the way to the top of Mach Schnell? If not, do so some day, then tell us about how bad the High T is.

I took it all the way to Tower 3 of the tram in January, and going that distance yes it's more of a PITA than the T.

Sharon's impression may come from the fact that most of the best runs off the T require taking it all the way out, while it's a shorter traverse at Snowbird to Upper Cirque, some of the Gad Chutes.

The worst aspects of Ho Chi Minh can be avoided if you know where you're going. Only use the high gates for Great Scott, Jaws, Upper Cirque. Use the lowest gate for Gad Chutes or Elevator and anything lower in the Cirque. If you're going all the way to Mach Schnell, ski something in the Upper Cirque and take the long traverse left that crosses lower Cirque and brings you out near the end of Ho Chi Minh.

Better tree skiing (IMO)

Certainly more of it, not surprising as Snowbird has more of everything. But a lot of it won't be accessible during storms (Tigertail, etc.). During a puking dump the Wildcat trees at Alta might be the best bet.

The mountains at both areas go to 11,000 feet but the lifts at Alta only go to 10,500. Most of the time this contributes to Snowbird's advantage in longer fall lines, etc. But it does mean more wind-stripping and packing in exposed places at Snowbird, perhaps more terrain closures in storms, and is the likely reason for Ho Chi Minh being rockier than the T. I have commented many times that the lack of wind affect in most of Alta's snow is very unusual for an area with much alpine terrain.

Again, these are both great areas and I just don't get the tunnel vision many of the advocates on either side have. The Salt Lake retirees at Chatter Creek are just as lopsided at Snowbird as admin's posse is at Alta. The Iron Blosam group even more so, but some of that is just convenience.

 

[Admin]

This is like shooting fish in a barrel. :lol:

have you ever taken the HCM all the way to the top of Mach Schnell? If not, do so some day, then tell us about how bad the High T is.

I took it all the way to Tower 3 of the tram in January, and going that distance yes it's more of a PITA than the T.

So, you stopped traveling down the Ho Chin Minh Trail before you reached P-tex Point. I'll give you a hint: it's named that for a reason.

Sharon's impression may come from the fact that most of the best runs off the T require taking it all the way out

They do? :shock: News to me, and I actually live here. Watson Line, Annie's, Jake's, Jitterbug, Stonecrusher, Christmas Tree, Gunsight, Eddie's High, Thirds, etc. are all accessed from the High T without going out through Piss Pass.

The worst aspects of Ho Chi Minh can be avoided if you know where you're going.

Patently false. Getting to anything beyond Tower 3 requires navigating across P-tex Point.

If you're going all the way to Mach Schnell, ski something in the Upper Cirque and take the long traverse left that crosses lower Cirque and brings you out near the end of Ho Chi Minh.

I thought that you knew your way around Snowbird! :lol: That's another out-and-out falsehood -- the long traverse you're describing across the Cirque brings you back to the Ho Chi Minh a good eighth of a mile before its end. Plain and simple, you cannot reach Mach Schnell without negotiating P-Tex Point.

The mountains at both areas go to 11,000 feet

Both reach precisely 11,068.

but the lifts at Alta only go to 10,500.

10,550.

Most of the time this contributes to Snowbird's advantage in longer fall lines, etc.

Given the fact that only a minute fraction of Snowbird's terrain starts at its highest lift-served point on that 11,000-foot narrow pointy thing called Hidden Peak (the Cirque Traverse's highest gate, for example, is over 300 feet lower at 10,687), I'd posit that Snowbird's longer fall lines have much more to do with a base elevation that's 630 feet lower than Alta's lowest point.

But it does mean more wind-stripping and packing in exposed places at Snowbird, perhaps more terrain closures in storms, and is the likely reason for Ho Chi Minh being rockier than the T.

Given the fact that the elevation of the Ho Chi Minh Trail ranges from 9,800 to 10,687 feet, I fail to see how the fact that Snowbird's Tram reaches 11,000 feet has any relevancy to the wind-stripped nature of the Cirque Traverse.

The Iron Blosam group even more so, but some of that is just convenience.

All of whom ski no more often than one week per year where we live and ski 70-130 days per year each.

And you conveniently avoided responding to this:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7749&p=43092#p43082

 

[Marc_C]

If you're going all the way to Mach Schnell, ski something in the Upper Cirque and take the long traverse left that crosses lower Cirque and brings you out near the end of Ho Chi Minh.

That's the Cool Whip traverse - one of single most annoying, idiotic, dumb traverses in the entire Wasatch. Nothing quite like cutting across literally a hundred fall-line runs only a few turns below the top of the Cirque. And as Marc pointed out, gets you nothing in terms of avoiding the absolute worst part of the HCM.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I have never been impressed with the amount of vertical from the Ballroom traverse or Devil's Castle. In terms of vertical (not acreage in the topos) most of those two pink blobs are above those traverse lines and some of them are unskiable cliffs. If you ski Main Chute down to Main Street, is there any question whether there's more vertical above or below the Ballroom traverse?

I have a vague recollection that there is a lower traverse into Mach Schnell from the Gad side. January was definitely the first time I actually skied Tower 3. Upper Dalton's probably does require going past that tram tower. I've only done that once and it was not recently.

All of whom ski no more often than one week per year where we live and ski 70-130 days per year each.

True for the Iron Blosam group, whom I do criticize for virtually never skiing Alta. The Chatter Creek people are retirees and some of them ski more than Admin does. I know they are mostly at Snowbird, but not sure if the proportion is as lopsided as Admin's.

 

[Admin]

I have never been inpressed with the amount of vertical from the Ballroom traverse or Devil's Castle.

1,400 feet (Devil's Castle) isn't enough for you? Then certainly that 1,020 vertical-foot shot down South Chute at Snowbird that you enjoyed so much left you unimpressed, too. Great Scott in your beloved Upper Cirque must be like skiing in Wisconsin at a measly 780 vertical feet!! :roll:

Don't go and let a few annoying facts get in the way of your analysis! :lol:

In terms of vertical (not acreage in the topos) most of those two pink blobs are above those traverse lines and some of them are unskiable cliffs.

I deliberately avoided painting the cliff areas. And FWIW, Devil's Castle is skiable from the ridgeline for most of its width. The only cliffs are the Sugarloaf Cliffs, which are above the traverse as you are traversing out, and end long before you get there and Devil's Castle itself, which is next to the fall line, not in the fall line. Look at that topo again. See the broad saddle between Sugarloaf Peak and Devil's Castle? The run itself starts from anywhere along that saddle. And furthermore, as Marc_C pointed out, most folks don't ski it from that saddle but from the gravity traverse that starts the run some 100-150 vertical feet below that saddle.

I have a vague recollection that there is a lower traverse into Mach Schnell from the Gad side.

You recall incorrectly.

Upper Dalton's probably does require going past that tram tower.

It does if you want to ski the upper hundred or two of vert in Dalton's. Otherwise you can traverse in from Anderson's to ski the lower 75%.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

You guys are dorks.

 

[Sharon]

Just finished another bowl of popcorn.

2 more cents from me...

I always liked Snowbird better than Alta, though this last trip Alta really grew on me, probably because I was not dreading the traverses as much.

When I skied with my Park City friend, she whined like I did years ago about the traverses. I totally understand how she feels, though now that I've had much more experience with the Alta traverses, they are not much of a deal to me and I am happy to go out any traverse to get to the better conditions. It wasn't until this last trip that I finally got Alta, because it was the first time that I spent a day NOT following someone around. I already had a half-dozen days under my belt, so I had a good idea of where to go and managed to get around to all the places on my own just fine. In my earliest Alta days, before I knew any of you, I had no idea where to go and found it difficult to figure it out, though it seemed that wherever I went, it was good. But I enjoyed Snowbird much better, as it was much easier to find the goods there without local knowledge. I'm sure I didn't go out the cirque back then, nor did I do the Gad chutes. But, I enjoyed the skiing better at The Bird than at Alta.

Alta is definitely growing on me and I see why everyone loves it. I love it too, however, not sure if I love it more than Snowbird. I think I'd like Snowbird more if there were no snowboarders. But, what i've found is that the snowboarders rarely go where we go anyway.

I like both LCC ski areas. When I was at Solitude, there was discussion of why BCC is better than LCC...and I felt like these guys just had no idea what they were talking about, and I felt as though they probably just didn't have good tour guides in LCC at either ski area. They complained about crowds and one didn't like the high lifts with no safety bar. ](*,)

Let's bring Rog in and we can discuss the pros and cons of BCC and LCC...I'll go pop another bowl of popcorn.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

My life is built around the law of contrary public opinion. If everyone thinks one thing, I say... bet the other way.

And if skiing in the "lesser" canyon means I don't have to debate the pros and cons of Ho Chi Minh vs. Piss Pass, then I know I chose correctly.

 

[Admin]

You guys are dorks.

In my earliest Alta days, before I knew any of you, I had no idea where to go and found it difficult to figure it out, though it seemed that wherever I went, it was good. But I enjoyed Snowbird much better, as it was much easier to find the goods there without local knowledge.

Hence the earlier comments about keeping out the riff-raff. :wink:

I deliberately avoided painting the cliff areas. And FWIW, Devil's Castle is skiable from the ridgeline for most of its width. The only cliffs are the Sugarloaf Cliffs, which are above the traverse as you are traversing out, and end long before you get there and Devil's Castle itself, which is next to the fall line, not in the fall line. Look at that topo again. See the broad saddle between Sugarloaf Peak and Devil's Castle? The run itself starts from anywhere along that saddle. And furthermore, as Marc_C pointed out, most folks don't ski it from that saddle but from the gravity traverse that starts the run some 100-150 vertical feet below that saddle.

Here's another visual aid that depicts both the aforementioned saddle and gravity traverse:

 

[berkshireskier]

I have the feeling this thread will be longer and more protracted than the Israeli/Palestinean conflict.