Les Contamines, FR: 03/07/23 + Connection Maps

I wonder which is the least reliable, Megeve or Deer Valley East Village. It’s apples and oranges. The East Village is close to being desert, but I guess OK for snowmaking. Megeve is all about the proportion of rain vs. snow, like the lowest places in the PNW.
 
Deer Valley East Village
Based on photos and press, I can't imagine that any winter could be worse for DV snowmaking than 2025-26. The question is: how many more times will it happen as CC (I won't spell it out or former Admin will use his FTO back door to shut the site down) increases or was this season a once-in-a-generation outlier?

As far as Megève, I suppose that the refusal to upgrade lifts says plenty about how bad their chances are in the future. Fraser's summary paints somber tones and I have first-hand experience with a day during a poor season there but do we have numbers about the area's actual snowfall, rain incidence, etc.?
 
As for L’Espace Diamant, I am told it was never likely to happen. Indeed, I was in Megève two weeks ago, and the locals were saying they have given up on upgrading the lifts, let alone pursuing new connections. The Côte 2000 area was due a couple of new chairlifts recently (it hasn’t changed much since my last visit in 1983!), but that plan has also been abandoned—no doubt with accelerating climate change at the forefront of people’s minds. In short, the appetite/culture to link anything and everything is firmly a thing of the past, at least in France.

I am a bit surprised by this sentiment. However, Where to Ski disparaged Megeve for not moving forward on its Cote 2000 lift upgrade in its France only book. I concur. The Surface Lifts were lengthy and backed up by no traffic and too many slow quads. Rochebrune is modern, and its interconnect.

It appears other low-lying Geneva-centric ski resorts are making upgrades (Grand Massif/Flaine, PdS, etc).

St. Gervais has put some money into its lift system, but Megeve less so.

However, even La Clusaz seems to lack some investment on upper mountain lifts. Base lifts are all modern high-speed, but things get retro quickly above the base areas. Overall I did not mind. There is a detachable double that is a complete relic though! 1980! https://www.skiresort.info/ski-resort/la-clusaz-manigod/ski-lifts/l89776/

The Austrians have taken the polar opposite approach to its low-lying ski resorts. While they do not have Chamonix next door, there are sizable glacier ski resorts.
 
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The low Austrian resorts are colder and get less rain than the low French resorts. However most of them also get less snow. Again I don’t know the quantities of any of the above to say which are more reliable and or vulnerable to rising temperatures. I’d say more vulnerable than the low PNW places that are still getting 350+ inches of average snow. The low places in Oregon suffered a complete wipeout this season though, and probably close to it in 2005 and 2015.
 
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I am a little


I am a bit surprised by this sentiment. However, Where to Ski disparaged Megeve for not moving forward on its Cote 2000 lift upgrade in its France only book. I concur. The Surface Lifts were lengthy and backed up by no traffic and too many slow quads. Rochebrune is modern, and its interconnect.

It appears other low-lying Geneva-centric ski resorts are making upgrades (Grand Massif/Flaine, PdS, etc).

St. Gervais has put some money into its lift system, but Megeve less so.

However, even La Clusaz seems to lack some investment on upper mountain lifts. Base lifts are all modern high-speed, but things get retro quickly above the base areas. Overall I did not mind. There is a detachable double that is a complete relic though! 1980! https://www.skiresort.info/ski-resort/la-clusaz-manigod/ski-lifts/l89776/

The Austrians have taken the polar opposite approach to its low-lying ski resorts. While they do not have Chamonix next door, there are sizable glacier ski resorts.
Obviously La Clusaz are also very concerned by climate change but they do have one ace up their sleeve - the La Balme sector. In isolation this area is one of the most snow-sure in the Haute-Savoie, usually open until the end of April and a popular with ski tourers well into May, sometimes June.
 
The low Austrian resorts are colder and get less rain than the low French resorts. However most of them also get less snow. Again I don’t know the quantities of any of the above to say which are more reliable and or vulnerable to rising temperatures. I’d say more vulnerable than the low PNW places that are still getting 350+ inches of average snow. The low places in Oregon suffered a complete wipeout this season though, and probably close to it in 2005 and 2015.
Crucially, the classic low austrian resorts are in a completely different league when it comes to snow-making. It helps that their climate ( lower temperatures and lower humidity) are more conducive to snow-making but they are also prepared to throw more money at it. For this reason, as well as the reasons Tony mentions above (slightly colder, lower risk of rain height for height) I would argue that somewhere like Kitzbuhel is a safer bet for your average piste skier than somewhere like Les Gets or La Clusaz. The latter get more snow, but are much more susceptible to rapid changes in air mass which = volatile snow conditions/quality.
 
Based on photos and press, I can't imagine that any winter could be worse for DV snowmaking than 2025-26. The question is: how many more times will it happen as CC (I won't spell it out or former Admin will use his FTO back door to shut the site down) increases or was this season a once-in-a-generation outlier?

As far as Megève, I suppose that the refusal to upgrade lifts says plenty about how bad their chances are in the future. Fraser's summary paints somber tones and I have first-hand experience with a day during a poor season there but do we have numbers about the area's actual snowfall, rain incidence, etc.?
Snowfall stats here are fairly irrelevant due to area's exposure to the warming effect of the Atlantic which = volatile temperatures and frequent rain. They probably see around 7m of snow around 2000m, which sounds a lot but it can rain to 2500m or higher, even in January, which can quickly screw things up. Compare to somewhere like Obergurgl which gets less than 5m of snow at 2000m yet never sees rain mid-winter and is on a totally different planet in terms of consistently "wintry" snow.
 
When did your parents see the writing on the wall about the value of their apartment and unload it? The closing of Roc d'Enfer is unfortunate but not difficult to understand, however, this:

-- is both understandable (from a bottom-line standpoint) but also a bit shocking considering Megève's status in French ski lore. Given the amount of revenue that must flow into the area's coffers (both from citizens and foreigners who call it a home away from home, low elevation or not) you think that they'd be busy retaining leading engineers to design top-to-bottom refrigerated pistes! See the Deer Valley folly for a variant of that.
My parents sold long before we knew about financial difficulties but for me the writing was on the wall so I pushed them into making that decision.
 
Obviously La Clusaz are also very concerned by climate change but they do have one ace up their sleeve - the La Balme sector. In isolation this area is one of the most snow-sure in the Haute-Savoie, usually open until the end of April and a popular with ski tourers well into May, sometimes June.

I am came away very impressed by La Clusaz on a powder day (my sample size is one).

It was classic Maritime -> Northwest skiing at a place like Crystal, Stevens or Baker. Lots of snow. Fog layers. Heavy at mid-to-lower mountain. Mix at base - a bit more liquid than solid.

However, I have become acclimated to Pacific Coast snowpack, and it is nothing some fat skis cannot fix!
 
However, I have become acclimated to Pacific Coast snowpack, and it is nothing some fat skis cannot fix!
Yes fat skis are essential in very heavy snow. But I thought the Nordstau snow was fairly low density until the spring sun got at it. And I wasn't skiing it at that high elevation. Ovrannaz, Chatel, Avoriaz, Flaine, all in the 1,800 - 2,300 meter range. I was not on fat skis at any of those places because I was not skiing immediately fresh snow so maybe 1/3 powder skiing at Ovrannaz and no more than 1/4 at Avoriaz. Unfortunately the fresh powder day was Tuesday, and we were severely limited by visibility in terms of going off piste that day. Liz, by the way, used her fat skis at Ovrannaz and all of the days at Chatel/Avoriaz.
 
I typically use a ski as wide as possible that has decent side cut to half-ass carve turns.

Basically, there are 2 conditions for Pacific ski resorts:
  • wet or mid-weight powder = Fat skis with some flex
  • corn or slop = Fat skis that run stiff

People think I am nuts in the Alps (non-Powder magnets) with this ski quiver.

That said: everyone skiing La Clusaz's Le Balme sector had fat Black Crows skis.
 
I typically use a ski as wide as possible that has decent side cut to half-ass carve turns.
That's a good definition for my 98 underfoot, rockered tip but stiff tail Blizzard Bonafides. In far flung areas in the Alps it's not practical to be switching up skis during the day. So I want something that decent in both powder and on hard packed groomers. Even on new snow days busy pistes get clumpy and bumpy in the afternoon, which I've seen on both trips to Portes du Soleil. I don't like skiing on a dedicated powder ski when I know well over half the day won't be in powder. Liz has the opposite view. She wants to be on her ON3P powder skis if she expects to be skiing even a modest amount of powder.

I've been waiting to comment on the Megeve/Les Contamines/Espace Diamant issue until I could peruse them on Google Earth. Espace Diamant has zero terrain over 2,000 meters and the huge Megeve - St. Gervais complex has one lift over 2,100. Les Contamines has some more terrain up to 2,400 but its primary exposure is east, and even a bit more south than north. So no it's not difficult to see why people are reluctant to invest in these places.

Despite my outspoken warnings about booking any low altitude places in the Alps far in advance, Liz and I are usually eager to try them on short notice when we can expect good conditions. The recent trip was an example, but it's hard for me to envision choosing Megeve/Les Contamines/Espace Diamant over PdS or Grand Massif, other than adding to one's ski area count. The most likely scenario is a one day pit stop on the way to or from Geneva airport.
 
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I've been waiting to comment on the Megeve/Les Contamines/Espace Diamant issue until I could peruse them on Google Earth. Espace Diamant has zero terrain over 2,000 meters and the huge Megeve - St. Gervais complex has one lift over 2,100. Les Contamines has some more terrain up to 2,400 but its primary exposure is east, and even a bit more south than north. So no it's not difficult to see why people are reluctant to invest in these places.

Despite my outspoken warnings about booking any low altitude places in the Alps far in advance, Liz and I are usually eager to try them on short notice when we can expect good conditions. The recent trip was an example, but it's hard for me to envision choosing Megeve/Les Contamines/Espace Diamant over PdS or Grand Massif, other than adding to one's ski area count. The most likely scenario is a one day pit stop on the way to or from Geneva airport.

I skied all of these places during my first winter trip to the Alps.

Again, Chamonix with a car and a Mont Blanc Unlimited Pass makes St Gervais/Megeve and Les Contamines of the best skiers areas on the pass - especially for storm days (Megeve) or powder (Les Contamines). Les Houches is not good! Le Balme is another decent powder mountain if partial clearing is possible.

Verbier was on the pass as well (vs. Crans Montana).



I think PdS (Avoriaz/Swiss (not Morzine/Les Gets), Grand Massif, La Clusaz or Les Contamines ski better/as well as any specific Chamonix ski area (even Grands Montets in the last decade).





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storm days (Megeve) or powder (Les Contamines). Les Houches is not good!
Liz had bad weather nearly her entire week in Chamonix in 2001. Her group skied Les Houches one day and Les Contamines one day. They also went to Verbier and that was the only decent weather day. The areas discussed in this thread are the most convenient bailouts from Chamonix on bad weather days.
 
That's a good definition for my 98 underfoot, rockered tip but stiff tail Blizzard Bonafides. In far flung areas in the Alps it's not practical to be switching up skis during the day. So I want something that decent in both powder and on hard packed groomers. Even on new snow days busy pistes get clumpy and bumpy in the afternoon, which I've seen on both trips to Portes du Soleil. I don't like skiing on a dedicated powder ski when I know well over half the day won't be in powder. Liz has the opposite view. She wants to be on her ON3P powder skis if she expects to be skiing even a modest amount of powder.

I've been waiting to comment on the Megeve/Les Contamines/Espace Diamant issue until I could peruse them on Google Earth. Espace Diamant has zero terrain over 2,000 meters and the huge Megeve - St. Gervais complex has one lift over 2,100. Les Contamines has some more terrain up to 2,400 but its primary exposure is east, and even a bit more south than north. So no it's not difficult to see why people are reluctant to invest in these places.

Despite my outspoken warnings about booking any low altitude places in the Alps far in advance, Liz and I are usually eager to try them on short notice when we can expect good conditions. The recent trip was an example, but it's hard for me to envision choosing Megeve/Les Contamines/Espace Diamant over PdS or Grand Massif, other than adding to one's ski area count. The most likely scenario is a one day pit stop on the way to or from Geneva airport.
I am not comfortable with lumping Les Contamines in with Megeve/Espace Diamant. Les Contamines is considerably more reliable for snow, all things considered. I have skied there numerous times, including in 2 of the worse seasons ever (late 80s, early 90s) and it has always punched above its weight - or should that be height!
 
I am not comfortable with lumping Les Contamines in with Megeve/Espace Diamant. Les Contamines is considerably more reliable for snow, all things considered.
Weathertoski and I both emphasize altitude/exposure more than most ski analysts, particularly those in North America. The exposure flaw is skewed toward mid-February and later, becoming increasingly more important every week thereafter. I'll hazard a guess that weathertoski's visits to Les Contamines may have been no later than that. The altitude flaw can be problematic any time in the NW Alps due to rain vulnerability. So that's the distinction between Les Contamines and Megeve/Espace Diamant. That doesn't change my view that the severe flaws of the latter, larger domains are a deterrent to spending $$$ on the connections.

High snowfall, badly exposed areas can be quite reliable in January, the Arlberg and Jackson Hole being the prime examples. Les Contamines looks like a very attractive day area on the way to/from Geneva in our usual late January/early February Alps timeframe.
 
Weathertoski and I both emphasize altitude/exposure more than most ski analysts, particularly those in North America. The exposure flaw is skewed toward mid-February and later, becoming increasingly more important every week thereafter. I'll hazard a guess that weathertoski's visits to Les Contamines may have been no later than that. The altitude flaw can be problematic any time in the NW Alps due to rain vulnerability. So that's the distinction between Les Contamines and Megeve/Espace Diamant. That doesn't change my view that the severe flaws of the latter, larger domains are a deterrent to spending $$$ on the connections.

High snowfall, badly exposed areas can be quite reliable in January, the Arlberg and Jackson Hole being the prime examples. Les Contamines looks like a very attractive day area on the way to/from Geneva in our usual late January/early February Alps timeframe.
Actually most of my visits have been in late March or April, and Les Contamine's reputation for good snow is well documented in France. As I say, it's in a league above Megeve and one of the key reasons is that you spend most of your time skiing between about 1600 and 2200m whereas in Megeve most of the skiing is between about 1200 and 1800m. Slightly closer to the Massif du Mont Blanc, it is also generally accepted that there is local snowfall enhancement (in Les Contamines).
 
I am not comfortable with lumping Les Contamines in with Megeve/Espace Diamant. Les Contamines is considerably more reliable for snow, all things considered.

I would agree with this statement.

Les Contamines compares more favorably with Flaine/Grand Massif, Avoriaz/Champery or even Brevent/Flegere.

Again, I think it skis better than most individual Chamonix ski resorts due to its location next to Mont Blanc, mostly North- and east-facing terrain, nice bowls and broad slopes, 360-degree exposure for Spring skiing, and its lack of the 'powder panic' of Chamonix.

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Megeve is more similar to Morzine-Les Gets. However, I like the Cote2000 and Mont Joly zones slightly better than Mont Chery/Nylon/Chamossiere areas.

Les Houches should almost always be avoided since storm skiing is so much better and more extensive at Megeve.
 
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I’m not not surprised there there could be a snowfall difference with Les Contamines considering the big difference I just observed between Chatel and Morzine/Les Gers.
 
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