Loon mtn, month of feb and 3/3 3/4

joegm

joegm

New member
it's been quite a ride at loon the past month...i shut it down posting at the end of jan because i was just fed up with loon's polices/ the cold/ the lack of skiable bump terrain in central nh's resorts... whatever... it's not an excuse , but it's my explaination... then a funny thing happened... the bitchin and moaning and constant harassment paid off... from my perspective and my friends' perspective. just when it became apparent to us that loon was tossing in the towel on skiable mogul lines for people who are not on the usa freestyle team , we came into contact with a guy named jeff ingals, who happens to be the director of grooming operations at loon mtn, and also happens to be in the top 5 of the nicest most sincere human beings i have ever met. this happened around feb 1st and what transpired over the next weeks was 1) too long to get into here and 2 ) laughable in terms of us getting a taste of how much influence the alpine racing industry/schools feels they should have over terrain management. the short story is that jeff ingals went to bat for the freestylers , along with the 2 gm's of loon mtn, ralph lewis and rick kelly and a kick ass grommer named lee, and decided ( however late it came ) that enough was enough and finally put in some decent moguls lines. not mogul fields, as was being advertised on radio ads ( turns out a mogul " field " is an area of about 15 moguls long by about 4 or 5 moguls wide at the ass end of a groomed run, useless as u know what on a bull ... more on that , and the evil alpine racing idiots from the new hampton school in central new hampshire later ) .... after many conversations with these three managers, it was relayed to us that it is in fact loon's goal/policy to have an accessable mogul RUN off of every lift they spin( an admirable if not lofty goal, i say ). and much to the chagrin of the pussy's ( sorry about the harsh language , but that's what they are ) from the new hampton school of fast skiers, loon has delivered. loon has put in moguls on lower runrunner, a medium pitched blue off the hs quad... it is essentially the same length as the old bump run under the hs quad that they took out to make a user friendly terrain park. ( for the record , i fully support the idea of a park being there now that legit mogul runs are in place ). they built the moguls on lower rumrummer and did a great job on them... they built they really tight and because they were built so tight, they have been holding up well to the butchery that takes place from loon's low end skiers... but that's ok, cause the goal is to get more people skiing bumps...they also laid down a strip of bumps right between the gondy line and the 7 bros lift line... real flat . but again real tight , so they have held up well... they also put in bumps off the top of sunset to skiers right, all the way down sunset...( all of these lines are rated blue for steepness btw.... ) they also put in bumps on rolling bear leading down to the double... ( this one is short , but again, super tight spacing has held them up well )... and of course they still have the bumps on lower flume, which are crap 85% of the time ) i could write 5 pages on how this all seemingly went down , but i don't have the time or desire to do that and don't want to bore anyone.. all i will say is that my buddy's and i have first hand knowledge of how much resistance was thrown at the management of loon by the racing groups, and specifically the new hampton school. all i will say is that in my opinion , there are some real snotty, elitest coaches at that school who think that they are just god's gift to the world... my dealings with these fools over the last month has only served to cement my quite possibly irrational opinion/disdainment of racers and their suck attitudes.... but's it's all good cause in the end, the freestylers got the last laugh...ho ho ho u jackasses from new hampton, like j moseley said in the best ski movie ever made, fistful of moguls, i guess u "just have to deal" with moguls on lower rumrunner <BR> loon on mon tuesday wed and thurs--- mon through wed were great... soft snow everywhere.. cream cheese on mon and tuesday, creamed gran of wed.. thurs kind of pooped the bed a bit as it got cold and turned it all to loose gran mounds...however, the delights of skiing mon tues and wed in 50 f, came with a heavy price... loon is in some trouble base wise... mainly , they have none and it got cut by i would say a good 15 % in 72 hours this past week... they have announced their closing date of easter sunday april 11th.. they might not make it.. there were serious brown spots opening up.. a big tell tale for loon was that there is a big fungus spot open on lower walking boss... i am not blaming loon at all for the current conditions... it has not snowed in central nh in 2 months.. and now it's time to pay for it... since loon put in the bumps we haven't gone anywhere else, but i think everone is in trouble from reading that recent jay post...( if there is a k mart local out there, PLEASE throw up a status report on the amount of snow that was made in the past 5 weeks on the superstar, cause i got a feeling the k mart trips may be starting sooner than ususal this year. ) FYI, ASC HAS PUT A SPRING PASS ON SALE FOR 230, UP FROM 199 IN YEARS PAST... and loon has a college pass for $99 for the rest of the season, which may not be more than 4 weeks. <BR>for amusement purposes only, some on hill verbatim quotes from new hampton school alpine race coaches who pay to rent 1 trail from loon but seem to feel they own 4 trails. <BR> 1) circa end of jan when loon had those infamous mogul "fields" set up at the end of 2 blue cruisers " there's moguls everywhere on this mountain, stay away from our racers and go ski them " ... hey jackass, why don't u go set up 3 or 4 gates and race train on those... oh u r right, that's not long enough to get any work done on <BR>2) " we pay for these trails " ... actually you pay for one (1) and set up ropes with an opening 18 inches wide to trick the naive public into thinking that all abutting trails are closed off <BR>3) " why don't you go over to lower flume and ski those moguls " hey jackass, why don't you go race train on lower flume... oh that's right, it's a 16 minute fixed grip triple ride to access that trail... as opposed to a 4 minute hs q ride. <BR> big props to loon's management , ingals, lewis and kelley for putting in a very reasonable compromise.. they took a lot of heat from the racers , and from some whiney usual suspect groomed lover general public, but it appears they are gonna stick with it.. now if we can just get loon's ski patrol to stop worshiping at the altar of of the new hampton downhillers, everything will be all set!!!!! pray for snow
 
Wow,thanks for a great report/editorial,Joe.It's good to hear Loon is commiting to some low angle bumps for skiers.I agree that entry level moguls are key to keeping the ski industry in forward motion.I see too many resorts with only one option of bump trails.Steep fall lines with huge bumps that have deep troughs.Those trails might seem appealing to most who post regularly on this board,but for most it looks like a nightmare.Being able to conqure low angle bumps gives skiers the confidence they need to make the jump from intermediate to expert.Or at least,the confidence to tackle challenges in thier life. <BR>((* <BR>*))NHPH
 
Joe, <BR> <BR>I'll give you another chance to get up on your soap box... What is the ski patrol doing (or not doing) regarding those evil new hampton racers that has you upset?
 
I totally agree with you guys. I mean the only way to learn how to ski bumps is to start with the little ones. No bump learner is going to hop on a trail with huge bumps they need to start on a nice gentle slop trail to get the rhythm. I know I really learned bumps on the lower part of raggeds glades where it is shallow, but i still had to go through steep stuff to get there. Nice to know about loon. Thanks joegm!!! <BR>porter
 
Interesting post to say the least. I was at Loon in February and can vouch for the awesome bump runs on Rumrunner, Sunset, Seven Brothers and Rolling Bear. That groomer operator should get a raise! Best bump runs on intermediate terrain I've ever seen. The proof is in the pudding. Here are pics from that trip: <BR> <BR><A HREF="http://forums.alpinezone.com/modules.php?set_albumName=albun05&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php" TARGET="_top">http://forums.alpinezone.com/modules.php?set_albumName=albun05&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php</A> <BR> <BR>This is a work of art: <BR> <BR><A HREF="http://forums.alpinezone.com/modules.php?set_albumName=albun05&id=aal&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php" TARGET="_top">http://forums.alpinezone.com/modules.php?set_albumName=albun05&id=aal&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php</A>
 
Moguls created by skier traffic are a lot different that the ones in the above pics, especially on intermediate terrain. Beginner skier traffic usually leads to erraticaly spaced bumps. Loons's great intermediate bump runs were created by a groomer.
 
in order of responses needing least amount of space; <BR>1) nhpowder hound _ AMEN BROTHER <BR>2) salida _ SEE ABOVE <BR>3) Alpine zone- the groomer's name is lee, he is on the midnight shift... he despises racers and loves freestylers... good egg... truely the best built bumps on intermediate pitch i have ever skied.. they got it right, for sure <BR>4) roll- yes in theory, however 2 factors of major influence take over here.. 1) lack of snow, loon and the east in general get no snow and what little they get is subject to many cycles of structural changes... unlike in the west... ( see a tony c post of a few months ago ) and naturally forming bumps need snow 2) loon's skiers- loon attracts lower end skiers.. it's not a rip or a complaint... but these types of skiers do not make the necessary short radius turns required to form tight spaced moguls.. they make longer radius , abrupt turns that space out the carves/skids and produce bumps that have large frontside walls that are separated by large spots of hardpacked slick... mary jane in colorado doesn't need lee the groomer to build bumps.. eastern ski areas ( especially loon ) do.. to the credit of loon, they have recognized this and done something that the likes of too many places ( cannon, jay, burke, attitash, et al ) will not do... dedicate a blue pitched run for bumps and dedicate a 16 hour manpower block to build them. <BR>4) A LOONIE - so glad u asked... this whole beef/brouhaha started because of the loon mtn ski patrol... i put 50 % of the blame on the race school and 50% on the ski patrol...back in december, when loon had open about 30% of their terrain, i was almost hit by a new hampton school racer who felt that the open public slope he was gs'ing on was in fact a closed race course... this kid was skiing way to fast for his ability... i approached a loon ski patroler in a calm respectful demeanor and relayed the situation... i was greeted with, verbatim " what do you want me to do about it, they are racers, they ski fast "... skip ahead 6 weeks to around the first of february.... jeff ingals, the head of grooming operations at loon, relayed to my buddy gil and i that they were gonna put in bumps on lower rumrunner and offered to let us ride with the groomer to have some input on them... we rode with the groomer and put in the bumps on lowerrumrunner... i assume u know the set up at loon there a loonie, so you know that, in general, the new hampton school rents out the upper rumrunner and the coolidge st trails quite a bit... for those who don't know loon, picture a wish bone... the top part is upperrumrunner and the lower 2 prongs are coolidge st ( skiers right ) and lower rumrunner ( skiers left )... these trails are serviced by a 4 minute hs quad. new hampton school has ( for the last few years ) we believe based on close observations, very cutely taken up more terrain than they actually pay for by cute manuverings with orange closed trail signs and ropes... it's kind of hard to explain on paper here , but what they have done is strategically place ropes and signs across traverses and access points in a way that , to the uniformed general public skier, gives the impression that access to other VERY UNRENTED LANES AND TRAILS, is in fact cut off...this was not a big issue in the past for my buddy and i because loon's blue bump run was not located in a spot that required a traverse through these convoluted signs that the new hampton school intentionally put up... but we noticed it and it always bugged us... skip to this year , when the decision was made to move the blue bump run to it's present location.. a location that does require access via a traverse that cut through the " rented " lanes of new hampton...on the following day that we got the bumps built on lowerrumrunner, we observed the coaches from the new hampton school storming around on the hill in fits of rage... why? becasue the now lower rumrunner, which they had been essentially using as their own private ungated flat lane because of their strategic placement of signage and ropes, was now being accessed by 2 bumps manics that were not being intimidated by their cute tactics... loon's ski patrol knew what was going on as far as the signage placement, but never said a word about it to them. part of the reason was that , mid it only happend mid week when the crowds are a lot slower and part of it is that loon basically has for it's skiers, very low end recreational skiers who did not realize what was going on in terms of , in essence, unauthorized trail closings by this arrogant group of racers.... the day the bump run was first opened, new hampton tried to completly shut off the traverse leading to lower runrummer, the newly made bumps....my buddy and i began to ski under the rope and got into it with the coach of new hampton... he basically told us to screw... we told him the same.. after a few more times of repeating this scene, we were confronted by the loon ski patrol ( there was a previous incident a little before this that i'm not gonna get into out of repect for the gm's of loon because it involved some dangerous words, legal wise, uttered by a loon ski patroler )... we were confronted by this loon ski patroler who demanded our season passes... we tried to expalin to him what was going on in the most clear , sensible, calm tones as possible.. this idiot would just shrugg his shoulders and say, there is nothing i can do about it... it got real ugly... i mean real, real ugly and we refused to give him our passes but told him we would met him in the gm's office to straighten this out... he basically skied away from us... right then we knew we were right because the ski patrol does not just ski away from someone if they feel they have an offense that requires a season pass confiscation or maybe even an arrestable offense... we continued to ski and decided we were not gonna kill time with this jackass until lunch when we figured we would hit the gm's office... well lo and behold, within 15 minutes, a gated crossover with a new hampton coach was set up to facilitate access to lower rumrunner... it turns out this was and still is a part of the agreement new hampton has in their contract with loon when they rent the lane.. they just choose to ignore it.. and the ski patrol at loon CHOOSES not to enforce it....this past week, new hampton was up to their usual tricks again when they showed up at about 11.. they set up gates on urr and coolidge st... they postitioned a " TRAIL CLOSED " smack dab in the middle of the traverse , which is, get this, clearly visible from the hs quad that runs over the crosscut... even though the cross cut is NOT CLOSED... the loon ski patrol allowed and allows this nonsense to go on.. the view from the lift gives 99% of the recreational public the impression that that whole side of the mountain is closed... THIS IS JUST WHAT THE SNAKES FROM NEW HAMPTON WANT... THEY KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THEY ARE DOING... the loon ski patrol CHOOSES TO IGNORE IT... on wednesday... around 11:15am, one bold father and daughter duo ( the daughter was a little 3 yr old pizza wedge skier )somehow found their way onto the traverse and skied past the WRONGLY PLACED " trail closed " sign... the little peanut was almost buried by a new hampton racer who was running the gates that were set up from upper rumrunner ONTO THE TRAVERSE and continued onto coolidge st...this guy was so shook up he could hardly speak... the jerk coach, who later claimed he was the "crossover guard ", in fact had his back turned and was watching the racer on course... i saw the whole thing unfold and i was stopped about 20 yards before the intersection bent over adjusting my boots.... this is getting to long so the short story is that the gm's were informed on wed what was going on... we were given assurances that they will be acting on the situation and gave us the impression that they are unhappy ( at best ) with the attitudes they are getting from this particular outfit from new hampton....my sense is that they are gonna get rid of them, but that's jsut speculation... what's my beef with the loon ski patrol, a loonie ?...they don't do their job... and they have allowed racers to run amoke on that hill after the above diatribe, it's the most simple way to put it... after this past week, i thinks it's gonna get better.. i think the people who matter ( certainly not the loon ski patrol ) are aware of the situation <BR>PS... U KNOW WHAT THE FUNNY PART WAS ABOUT WEDNESDAY... THE GONDY AT LOON WAS DELAYED OPENING ABOUT 8 MINUTES... WHEN THE LIFTIE WAS ASKED WHY THE DELAY, HE REPIED " THE SKI PATROL IS UP MAKING SURE THE MOUNTAIN IS SAFE " !!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1><B>Quote:</B></FONT><P>they have recognized this and done something that the likes of too many places ( cannon, jay, burke, attitash, et al ) will not do... dedicate a blue pitched run for bumps<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR>I'll speak for Jay, as that's the only place I'm qualified to refute this on behalf of. Think: <BR><UL><LI>Liftline (under the Bonnie quad) <LI>Any of the intermediate pitch glades (OK, they have trees, too, but some of them are fairly open) <LI>Poma Line <LI>Powerline <LI>Upper Milk Run</LI></UL> <BR>They're all naturally-formed bumps, and those bumps on Liftline are always absolute hero bumps.
 
marc, in hindsight i probably would take jay off the list... however, a few points, 1) like u said, all of the lines u name are all naturally formed... i don't think it's too much to ask for 1 trail to have man made, super tight spaced, right - left bumps.... 2) i don't believe they make snow on powerline ( which is no doubt a killer run ) or liftline ( let me know if im wrong about this ) , and even though jay is probably the least affected mtn by this, i would think they would tend to fall apart and shut down either because of coverage or no access, quicker late in the season.. 3) in terms of access to these trails, jay is not my main mtn, ( 4 to 5 times a season, usually ) no doubt, but the times i have been there , i seem to recall the bonne chair often not spinning mid week. the beauty of urr at loon is it is serviced by that 4 min hsq... that's the main reason the racers rent the ONE LANE ( that's a dig ) they do... why should freestylers be made to ski off a 15 minute fixed grip triple ( north peak triple at loon ) to access a bump run that is junk 90% of the time... 4) poma line is way too short to justify the ride on the gmf. 5) the answer , imo, would be to let them form naturally on upper milk run AND build them on lower milk run... the length of this would be a fair amount of bumps to justify the ride off the jet if the bonne is not running....racers would never settle for 5 or 6 gates being set up on a run and being told to train on that short stretch... why should mogul skiers settle for short lines like poma line or just upper milk run... 6) the whole crusade for blue bump run is based on the idea of learning to ski bumps properly...bumps are the hardest thing to do well in skiing, imo, and one certainly can't learn them correctly on black diamond terrain... tossing trees into the mix ( even on blue pitches ), for a person looking to work strictly on good form, only compounds the situation... if u are a good bump skier, trees make it more fun no doubt, if you are trying to learn, they detract.. <BR> on a completely separate issue marc, as a former red coat, did you find a tendancy among your brothers to allow racers wearing race garb and really opening it up speed wise on open slopes to let them get away with more speed / lack of control than you would have a regular public skier? and 2) in your observations, did the lifties at jay tend to allow race groups/teams to use the ski school cutlines?
 
and i will speak for cannon and burke, two places i visit often: <BR> <BR>cannon has had bumps on rocket and gary's all season. both blue square runs. i've often seen bumps in the banshee area too. <BR> <BR>burke has two blue squares runs that bump up. i can not remember their names, but they are below upper doug's drop. they are on natural snow, and have been bumped every time that i've been there. they are really great natural snow bump runs. <BR> <BR>----------- <BR> <BR>regarding the racing situation, that sounds like a situation of the management not forcing the race team to comply with the agreed upon arrangement. also sounds like management is not communicating properly with their ski patrol. the race team themselves will be just as defesive with their turf (the gates) as you are with your own (the bumps), it's really up to the management of the mountain to maintain a sense of balance here and make sure everyone serviced properly. <BR> <BR>when i raced several years ago, we had a race at loon and it was an absolute MESS. the race course takes up two different trails with a switch over from an "upper trail" to a completely different "lower trail" which means the first trails "lower" section is essentially also in use for the race even though no gates are placed on it. it's a lowsy set up for racers and the general public alike and leads to confrontations like this. <BR> <BR>also, given the crowd situation at loon, there's not enough room in the lodge, on the lifts, or on the slopes for racing during the weekend. loon needs to just not have weekend racing period, imo. but this is mid-week your having an issue with... and loon NEEDS the $$$ mid-week racing can bring in, so you gotta expect them to cator to the racers. sad but true, they already got your money and they need to make more so they can turn the lifts into april... and we all know what a sore topic that is around here. but it's not the season pass holder dollars that push the season into the late months. <BR> <BR>any ways, this is (imo) a clear case of management needing to sit down with the race team, re-read any contracts signed, and come to terms on how the agreement be carried out. management also needs to communicate to ski patrol what the hell is going on. i don't think the racer team or the patrol is at fault here if management isn't communicating (and you did seem to indicate that an agreement had been put forth, which management needs to enforce). just my two cents worth.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1><B>Quote:</B></FONT><P>i don't think it's too much to ask for 1 trail to have man made, super tight spaced, right - left bumps<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR>Liftline is proof that such bumps can be formed naturally by the right skiers. <BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1><B>Quote:</B></FONT><P>2) i don't believe they make snow on powerline ( which is no doubt a killer run ) or liftline ( let me know if im wrong about this )<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR>You're right on both, but that really wasn't a problem. <BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1><B>Quote:</B></FONT><P>6) the whole crusade for blue bump run is based on the idea of learning to ski bumps properly...bumps are the hardest thing to do well in skiing, imo, and one certainly can't learn them correctly on black diamond terrain... tossing trees into the mix ( even on blue pitches ), for a person looking to work strictly on good form, only compounds the situation... if u are a good bump skier, trees make it more fun no doubt, if you are trying to learn, they detract.. <!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR>Agreed completely, which is why I added the caveat. <BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1><B>Quote:</B></FONT><P>on a completely separate issue marc, as a former red coat, did you find a tendancy among your brothers to allow racers wearing race garb and really opening it up speed wise on open slopes to let them get away with more speed / lack of control than you would have a regular public skier? <!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR>Most Jay patrollers really don't see themselves as traffic cops. We were there for medical purposes and only had a chat with someone who <I><B>really</B></I> did something stupid. Lack of control? Sure, but we seldom saw the race kids skiing fast <I>and</I> out of control. As long as you weren't endangering others...and that was seldom the case at Jay when I left their patrol 8 years ago because it seldom got busy back then...or doing so in a designated "slow skiing" zone, you were allowed to go for it. <I>Laissez-faire.</I> <BR><BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1><B>Quote:</B></FONT><P>and 2) in your observations, did the lifties at jay tend to allow race groups/teams to use the ski school cutlines? <!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR>No.
 
river take this reply for what it's worth, 1) like i pleaded my case before, a place like cannon which gets no snow needs to BUILD the moguls to make em consistent... they don't build those bumps on gary's and rocket... 2) same for the lines under doug's at burke, although, while very short, are definitely more consistent that garys or rocket, but again are way to short to justify the lift ride... would it kill burke to put in 3 bump lanes off to the side of one of those killer cruiser lines they have on skier's far left side of the mountian 3) i knew someone was gonna put it back on the management... we got the quote from the management... " our ski patrol are our eyes and ears " it is not the job an administrator to be on the hill enforcing the policy... they set the policy and hire people ( the ski patrol ) to enforce it... it's that simple... if the ski patrol chooses /refuses to enforce the policy or to report violations, the management is only gonna assume things are ok 4) management set up the policy of mandating the race team use their own resources to facilitate a crossover with guards as part of the agreement...the race team in question would rather have their coaches out on the hill coaching and have chosen in the past, to flat out ignore this... they do this because they feel they are on a different level than the regular shmucks and don't feel they should have to play by common sense rules 5) race day and race training are very different.. i have no problem whatsoever with a mountain, shutting off access on a particular day to certain trails to facilitate a popular event that clearly attracts spectators, ie, race day... race training is different... this outfit feels they should be allowed to kill the whole side of the mountain every time they race train, which is virtually every day mid week. 6) you can dismiss this if you so choose, but loon's management has stated to us that ( , in response to our concession that " we know u get a lot of money from these guys and we are not asking you to get rid of them... just enforce reasonable policies " ) " they don't pay us enough money for the trail to be having these problems ". one of the gm's stated to us that his life would be a lot easier with out them and their money... u can believe that or disbelieve that, your call... they don't need to cater to them river,, and they stated to us that they pretty much are going to end it 7) do the racers pay loon enough money to cover the cost of paying out a wrongful death suit of a small child being demolished by a racer from a ski team that had gates set up in violation of a presigned agreement.. i would doubt it... 8) if new hampton just followed the policy of allocating manpower to cover a cross over, this whole silly conversation would not be taking place... they made a conscious decision not to... it the loon ski patrol elected to enforce the policy set forth by management, this whole silly conversation would not be taking place... they made a conscious decision not to.. 9) none of this has anything to do with short money season passes. 10) the race team is absolutely liable for engaging in conduct that they know is/ was in violation of their agreement and that is in violation of common sense... 11) it's not loon's fault they are a popular resort...crowded lodges have nothing to do with conscious decisions being made by arrogant race teams trying to push the limits and the ski patrol, the ones hired to enforce the policies set forth by management, ignoring them. 12) it is 100% the job of the ski patrol to make a call on wether a rope or a sign is placed in a way that is clearly deceptive and could give the impression that open terrain is closed.... the new hampton school knows the general public is generally not going to challenge anything with large orange/black lettering in it... and they abuse this fact... this is why i have so much vitriol for them... u are a former racer river, u know exactly what i'm talking about in terms of cute signage placement
 
what's wrong with skiing natural bumps? while the natural bumps on rocket and gary's at cannon can occasionally get nasty and may not be the best to learn on, they are occasionally the best bump lines on the mountain and one's i would highly recommend for training when they're good conditions. <BR> <BR>i completely 100% disagree strongly with your assessment of burke's bumps. those are excellent natural bumps that never get big and firm and are awesome for learning on and are well worth the lift ride. those blue square bump trails are almost 1/3 the vert drop of the quad (~500-600 vert feet), and well worth the ride for a beginner to learn. i certainly need to take many stops during my descent through those trails. how many vert feet are those bumps at loon? also, i would hardly expect struggling burke to afford to invest in the time, personnel, and equipment needed to "make" bumps. burke is well known for their wide open awesome cruisers. to sacrifice the side of willoughby or big dipper for a bump line would be cutting themselves in the wrist (spoken from a hard core supporter and lover of blue bump lines). <BR> <BR>you made a VERY incorrect statement saying that certain areas you named by name did not have dedicated bump lines. two people corrected your comment, and you rebutal by changing the arguement... that they are not real blue square bumpers cause they are natural snow and the vertical drop not being worth the ride? <BR> <BR>here's the poop... last year many of us bitched cause of a lack of blue square bumps. both cannon and loon delivered because their dedicated clientel made a stink. props to them. not every ski area can invest in the time, personel, or equipment it takes to make bumps. plus, i don't think the people skiing cannon and burke wanted an un-naturally forming bump line. i know i didn't, i like naturalness in bumps and wouldn't like one hand made. <BR> <BR>------ <BR> <BR>as a former racer, i was NEVER involved with or paid attention to mountain politics, trail placement or setup, or signage. i never knew there was any issues when i raced and to date this is the only race course issue i've ever been aware of, and from only one person so far. you should not assume such things and put them back on me, pardon my defensiveness. <BR> <BR>also, the general public is not showing up for race events. no more people show up for an actual race than do for race training. no one cares about ski racing except those that do it. training and racing require the same exact setup. racing just adds in more personel to maintain the course and times and logistics, no crowds though. sadly. not around here at least. <BR> <BR>regarding management vs. ski patrol... communication is a two way street! as a manager myself, i know full well that if you give someone a project and then let it go at that... it's gonna get messed about. higher ups are fully responsible for continued communication and following through with those responsible for a task. to suggest management should tell patrol what's up and leave it at that results in just this situation we have hear. human beings are faliable and must be audited and checked up upon. at the least, communication needs to go both ways and the problems here i contend are everyone's fault involved cause the three parties aren't communicating with each other. primarily, ski patrol captain and management don't sound like they are on the same page, or there are some rogues out there not verifying patrol and mountain policy before bitching out skiers. <BR> <BR>also, i think you took some of the things i said out of context completely... for one example crowded lodges. my point was that races on weekends at loon are a logistical nightmare and something that doesn't work well. where you got your rebutal in your point 11 is beyond me.
 
river, i luv ya but u r killing me... <BR>1) i'll answer the the red herring question about " what's wrong with skiing natural bumps " with a question..."...i ask you, what's wrong with skiing a natural race course?"... how can you ask that question?... would you ever be satisfied with skiing a race course that was not groomed/maintained on a nightly basis?.. there is nothing wrong with skiing natural bumps...but here comes that racer attitude that the only thing that deserves any sort of outlay/manpower/expenditure is race courses... u say the bumps at cannon are occassionally nasty and ocassionally the best time to learn on...i dispute that and would say that they are only occassionally the best and the rest of the time junk due to lack of snow, but assuming your assertion is accurate, what are they the rest of the time in between the occassions? are they in good a shape " the rest of the time as the race courses set up on cannon... i doubt it. 2) the bumps you speak of at burke are not bumps to learn on.. i really like them and i can really enjoy them now and ski them well now.. but htat's after 3 to 4 years of working hard at it and skiing those lines you speak of like crap... my learning curve would have been so much quicker on less steep pitches 3) i don't care how many " vertical feet " a bump run is... i care about how long it is... the bumps at loon on lrr are 350 yards long.. that's a fair length... back when u were racing would you be satisfied racing a course with the same length as the burke lines after dougs or rocket or garys? 4) you speak of this big capitol outlay of time, manpower and equipment for burke to make bumps.. what are you kidding me?... the bump run at loon was built in 1- 8 hour shift by a competant groomer on a standard cat with cutting tool that stocked by 99%^ of functioning ski areas.. knocking em down and resetting the lines 1 time every month from jan to march is 3 8 hour shifts of manpower.... i wonder how much " resource " that is when compared to the amount of time dedicated to maintaining warren's way over the course of the season... 1 half of one percent , maybe? 5) i did not make any incorrect statements.... cannon and burke and jay to not have any man made blue bump runs... they all have plenty of man made / maintained race courses/ parks/ jibs and booters... 6) how can you say with a straight face that no more people show up for races that do for race training... that is ludicrous.. the base area of loon is jammed with family members of racers who walk up on the hill on race day 7) you never knew of any issues when you were race training because if it didn't affect you, why would you care... again, that notion of we are the only ones who matter seems to be surfacing. i am clearly not the only person that has an issue with the race set up at loon... the problem has been relayed to the management by numerous sources... if you think that loon's management is going to put in bumps in an area that clearly have an impact on a rented out race area and clearly resulting in issues regarding the race area, beacuse of 2 people, your crazy...now, numerous is a relative number... the fact is most of the public when they go skiing for their 5 to 8 day trips a year are not gonna be informed enough to know or to realize what is going on. but those who do ski on a regular basis, do know. my rebuttal in #11 has to do with the the fact that in a debate about on hill terrain management issues, a crowded lodge has nothing to do with that issue. 8) in terms of management communication... it's really hard to believe that a couple of non payrolled, maniac, loudmouthed, windbag general public, bumpers are more informed of the actual on hill terrain management polices set forth by management, than are the employed ski patrol.. please.
 
and another thing, river, how in the world would a place like burke be " cutting their wrist " by putting a couple of lanes of bumps on ONE OF THE SIDES OF ONE of their cruisers when loon, a place that has about 15 to 20 times the amount of skiers on any given day, has found a way to do it on one of their " famed " cruisers?
 
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