Mammoth, May 8-9, 2025

[Tony Crocker]

Today's weather was similar to but perhaps a bit warmer than April 30 last week. It was sunny with a weak overnight freeze, though I suspect Mammoth has been salting more groomers overnight.

There was a glitch today. Chair 2 was down from about 7:45-11:30AM. Fortunately neither Tseeb or we got there quite early enough to be stuck on it.

Notice empty Stump Alley above Tseeb.

Forced to start with Gold Rush we rode 5 and started with Coyote for best early sun exposure. Coyote was in prime corn mode already at 8:15 and so worth an encore. We stayed on 5 for two more runs on Solitude, good but not quite like last week as there were probably more skiers due to chair 2 being closed. It seemed worth a shot at running circuits from 5 across to lower face of 3, then down empty Stump Alley to Gold Rush. The second of those runs was best, but then I had to go to Main Lodge to replace my Ikon Pass misplaced when I switched to using my shell jacket for this trip.

Liz was already over there and reported those runs in corn mode so we skied Ralphie's, Broadway, Fascination and Andy's in short order from chair 1. We got to the top of the gondola by 11, view of chair 6 halfpipe.

We skied Cornice, Climax and Dave's Run. Tseeb on Climax:

The upper ungroomed snow had settled out from last week and was much more manageable, though Climax and Dave's get mornign sun and were perhaps a bit heavier than they might have been 30-60 minutes earlier.

The Dave's Run down through Sliver on chair 5 wore Liz out some, so she decided to call it a day with one more ahead of us.

Tseeb and I rode now open chair 2 around noon to check out 23. The upper skiing on 23 was much better. Timing was just right and the snow had been smoothed out much more than on Climax and Dave's. We skied Drop Out 1, Wipe Out 2 and Wipe Out 1, in all three cases finishing up with corn on St. Anton that had been closed for the racers until 11:30. I find the well timed spring snow on steeper runs more forgiving than in the winter, and the Wipe Out 2 run was the first one that I've skied nonstop to St. Anton on the past 3 seasons.

I finished at 1:15 with 27,600 vertical. Tseeb started a little before us and got to 30K.

 

[tseeb]

Not too much to add and I didn't take any skiing photos. I liked Wipe Out 2 better than 1 and found steep right edge was smooth and firmer snow, but there were rocks to avoid. I also thought where it was not a steep was smoother below Wipe Out 2 than 1 and much easier to ski than where Drop Out 1 flattened. My last time down 23 I took a steep, narrows entry into Wipe Out 2, cut over into and skied one then skied some of the apron below 2 before cutting over to Scotty's.

Not only did I finish with exactly 30,000 vertical feet on SkiTracks without planning it, I had 20.5K by 11:30 and went over 1M for season. With only 42 days so far, I'm averaging over 24K, my highest since 2002-03 when I only skied 20 days and averaged 24.5K/day.

The rest of my comments are on my roadtrip to/from Mammoth. On Wed 5/7, I skied for a little over 5 hrs. after driving 3:45 to skiing and 1 hr after. On Thurs 5/8 I drove 2:30 from So. Tahoe to Mammoth, leaving ~430 and getting gas in Gardnerville, NV before 5 AM. Caltrans has opened Ebbets Pass which does not save me any time on way home, but does not appear likely to open 9600'+ Sonora Pass until next week which would save me 50 miles and at least 30 mins driving getting home after skiing. If I don't want to return to Gardnerville to refuel in less expensive NV, I could go over Monitor Pass (which Apple Maps does not find), through Markleville and past Kirkwood. No matter how I do it my ski time will not be much if any longer than my drive time today. Next photo is from Gardnerville, NV.

Lee Vining Chevron. Shell across the street was $5.99 for regular. Bridgeport, only 60 miles S of Gardnerville, was over $6.40 for regular.

 

[EMSC]

Lee Vining Chevron. Shell across the street was $5.99 for regular. Bridgeport, only 60 miles S of Gardnerville, was over $6.40 for regular.

Wow that's insane. And I've been complaining that Colo is still hovering just above/below $3 for a couple months now despite the reduction in crude prices in the past month+. I've been thinking I should see some ~$2.50 to $2.75 kind of numbers but haven't yet.

Also heard at least one more refinery in Cali is going to shut operations early next year which will just continue to increase those prices. Plus heard a 2nd one is considering shutting. I'm sure Newsom will find a way to run around hand-waving to distract from it all. Interestingly it may not matter if cali either does or doesn't have an electric car mandate. Soon enough nearly all the refiners will walk away whenever big maintenance or forced upgrades timing comes along. Those kind of investments are so costly they can only be economically justified over decades long timelines which Cali isn't going to give them.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Wow, those gas prices will make you go EV. Here's what it looks like in northern NJ. Costco is 15 cents cheaper.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Also heard at least one more refinery in Cali is going to shut operations early next year which will just continue to increase those prices. Plus heard a 2nd one is considering shutting. I'm sure Newsom will find a way to run around hand-waving to distract from it all. Interestingly it may not matter if cali either does or doesn't have an electric car mandate. Soon enough nearly all the refiners will walk away whenever big maintenance or forced upgrades timing comes along. Those kind of investments are so costly they can only be economically justified over decades long timelines which Cali isn't going to give them.

+1 Yes definitely agree the refinery situation is the underlying cause of gas price divergence vs. other states growing over time. Can gas be imported from other states? Generally not because California gas particularly in summer is specially formulated to help minimize smog. And almost no one outside California refines that blend of gasoline.

Wow, those gas prices will make you go EV.

With two Mammoth trip plus the Oregon trip, we drove the Tesla 3825 miles in April 2025 with our free supercharging. If that had been in our other car, I estimate $866 in gas cost. Paid supercharging would have cost about 40% of that.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Friday was forecast warmer and with clear skies. The latter may have caused a slightly firmer overnight freeze, but part of that is that we got on the hill at 7:45, 15 minutes earlier than Thursday. The Stump Alley warmup was slightly firm so we hit Coyote via the back of 3, where the upper slope also faces direct morning sun. This was also already corn at 8:15AM so we hit it twice more via chairs 2 and 3.

The U.S. Ski team was skiing from top of Cornice again as on April 29. We rode chair 23 to get up there at 9AM, but they had just quit skiing from the top.

The fence has been moved 2/3 of the way down Cornice to set up the new starting point. The top of Cornice has very direct early morning sun in May, and so softens faster than the lower part of the race course that turns north into Gremlin’s and St. Anton.

We went back for another lap where we skied the upper part just vacated.

Also skiing Cornice corn was Telemark Speedo Guy.

We stopped to watch the U.S. Ski Team.

Even lower Cornice is steep enough to gather speed quickly in the fall line.

This racer is just leaving the ground on Hair Jump.

He will be only a short height off the ground, but for a considerable distance.

The Cornice was worth two more corn laps, continuing down to Broadway and the lower race course runs Ralphie’s, Fascination and Andy’s, also in corn mode about half an hour earlier than Tuesday.

We were ready to hit chair 23 at 11Am, but chair 1 had a short stoppage so we went up the gondola one last time. At the top was a gaggle of Indian tourists rivaling any that James and I have seen in the Alps.

Also at the top was a sign that Liz has never seen before at the top of Mammoth.

That would be the zero wind speed.

The rope had just dropped on Gremlin’s and St. Anton. Those were not quite as smooth and effortless as on April 29, but still excellent. The paths marked with blue dye for the racers probably had extra salting and as a result lower St. Anton remained in great shape for the rest of the day. We finished with it on our last 2 Cornice runs and all four runs off chair 23.

The chair 23 runs at noon were similar to 1PM Thursday. The ones we tried with a slight NE tilt, Drop Out 3 and Monument, had parts that were a bit heavy and better skied earlier. The Wipe Out side of chair 23 was as good as Thursday. Looking down at Tseeb and Liz there:

The mellow aprons here were still good at 1PM.

Chair 14 was running privately for a Red Bull event. At 1:30 I got a look down there from Skyline.

No one was still in action but in the zoomed pic we can still see a few people and equipment.

After a probably too late in the day run on Gravy Chute, I skied to the car and finished at 1:30 with 30,500 vertical.

Overall this was another prime spring day at Mammoth. The groomers were not quite as perfect and long lasting as on April 29, but the steep upper runs were better this week.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

at least one more refinery in Cali is going to shut operations early next year which will just continue to increase those prices. Plus heard a 2nd one is considering shutting. (,,,) Soon enough nearly all the refiners will walk away whenever big maintenance or forced upgrades timing comes along. Those kind of investments are so costly they can only be economically justified over decades long timelines which Cali isn't going to give them.

Can gas be imported from other states? Generally not because California gas particularly in summer is specially formulated to help minimize smog. And almost no one outside California refines that blend of gasoline.

Thanks for the explanations. A Central NY friend (now living in San Diego) and I were discussing CA gas prices a few weeks ago and he wasn't sure why other than vague "environmental mandates."

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Telemark Speedo Guy.

Something for @Harvey to aspire to in retirement!

 

[tseeb]

Another great day skiing the Spring corn at Mammoth. I skied from before 7:45 to a little after two, over 32K

then had a tailgate beer with Kirk/Mountain_Monster and friends and dogs in parking lot before getting on road at 2:45. I got home ~845 with only a short stop in Minden for gas and fast food and a couple of stops to relieve aching back and full bladder. To avoid more clutter in the excellent early May Mammoth thread, I will add more about CA gas prices in a separate thread but note that prices in Bridgeport and Lee Vining are outliers as they charge what they can get with nearest less expensive gas far away.

Some no-zoom, only cropped, iPhone shots of racers starting lower on Cornice

Guy skiing with guitar was playing it before loading lift. At top he was sharing employee's lunch. Boundary Peak near Benton Hot Springs at far left.

Group of shirtless guys loading chair 1. At the top they were joined by two girls, who were skiing with bare shoulders but I didn't get photo.

@Tony Crocker on Scotty's (or the Monument side of Scotty's)

Not sure I remember what this WORK is that is on his shirt although I probably do a lot of it for no pay at home and at my Mom's and family ranch.

Wiggle on the Face and snowmaking lake showing some blue-green water around edges. Better than green-brown one at top of park that looked liked sewage.

Still is snow in meadow at Kirkwood which along with Vail's other Tahoe resorts closed on Easter. This was almost half-way home in miles and time.

 

[EMSC]

racers starting lower on Cornice

Just had a super interesting conversation with an ex top racer, now coach who claims that this time of year Winter Park is probably the best race training venue in the whole US. Better than Copper, better than Mammoth, etc... in his opinion. A near perfect daily timing of colder then warming temps, but not too much warming, etc... And when I say Winter park I mean exactly that; that whole side of the resort is closed to the public for the year, but they run race camps on that side for weeks in late April through much of May. (Mary Jane side is still open to the public).

He believes Mammoth is only viable for race training due to the snowcat level of salt spreading they do. Otherwise he said you are lucky to get 2 or 3 runs before the training is ruined at Mammoth due to getting too warm too quickly each day. Copper is more about the limited viable terrain: A couple runs between the trees off Exelerator lift - so not good for speed work for example.

I've coached at Winter park and Copper as late as the first week of June back in the day. But my only skiing and coaching at Mammoth was during winter months and I've never skied any Mt Hood stuff to have any comparison to those other super popular options for race training. So I thought the perspective was very interesting.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Copper is more about the limited viable terrain: A couple runs between the trees off Exelerator lift - so not good for speed work for example.

???? What's wrong with runs off the A and B lifts? Base elevation of 9,600 is a little higher than Winter Park's and the fall lines are better.

He believes Mammoth is only viable for race training due to the snowcat level of salt spreading they do.

I do not understand why more ski areas don't salt in the spring. From the viewpoint of recreational skiers, the improved quality of groomers and the considerable lengthening of the corn window make a massive difference. That said, I'm not sure how widespread groomer salting was at Mammoth these past two weeks other than on race courses. Mammoth usually starts salting recreational groomers later than this but will adjust if conditions call for it. We definitely did not see mid-morning salting which I see sometimes Memorial weekend.

During the huge 2022-23 season I compared SNOTEL temperatures late May through mid-June at Snowbird vs. Virginia Lakes in the Sierra north of Mammoth both at around 9,500 feet. Snowbird's average temperatures were 4.5 degrees warmer than Virginia Lakes, which would explain why its snowpack declined from 47 to 2 inches while Virginia Lakes' declined from 37 to 14.

I also looked at Grizzly Peak near A-Basin. Its average temperature was 3.8 degrees lower than Virginia Lakes, not surprising since it's 1,600 feet higher. However the starting snowpack was only 9 inches, so it was gone by June 9. A deeper snowpack is more refrigerated and holds up a firmer subsurface when the surface is melting. None other than Jack Mason, late patrol director at Winter Park, explained to me a long time ago that once the snowpack gets under 3 feet, it becomes isothermic and tends to deteriorate fast. And we all know that the coastal high water content snowpacks in April-June are usually much deeper and last longer than in Colorado.

I have noted before that there is window in late April/early May that favors Front Range Colorado as winter conditions and new snow are more likely prolonged there than elsewhere in North America.

But we know that changes by mid-May due to A-Basin having to close Pali after 72 hours of no overnight freeze. That no freeze scenario is bad for the racers too unless you salt the runs. I doubt Winter Park's race terrain is as high as Pali.

The area most dependent on salting is Timberline as it faces south. Liz and I skied there June 29 and July 1 in 2022. Locals said the temps we had from 40-65 would keep the snow manageable all morning, but sometimes it gets hotter and goes to mush earlier.