Manitoba Mountain, Spirit of the Kenai

[soulskier]

It's those latter two that continue to rankle me, Tony, Geoff, rfarren, et al.

I don't think it's a coincidence that the 4 most offended by the "over-hyping" do not ski at a level to enjoy the "10,000 acres of terrain". Many big mountain skiers are very excited about the ability to access this type of terrain for a very reasonable price, instead of dropping close to a grand for a day of heli skiing.

I don't think I've ever skied with you, so I don't know why you took it upon yourself to knock my ability to ski. I spent this last March skiing mostly backcountry in Colorado, trying to find steep terrain. I'm not afraid nor hesitant to take on steep and deep in fact I actively seek it out because I like to go fast in deep snow. This comment along with your earlier knocking of MRG convinces me you're ignorant, and makes me hope that you're not in charge of pr for your product.... Besides, what if I were a poor skier but a major enthusiast of the sport, what good would it be to knock someone's skills? This is why people have pegged you as an elitist. Jamesdeluxe, if you want to know where the vitriol against SS begins just look at the comments above.

The above having been said: I was actually going to say that I am impressed that you've managed to push your project so far, and kudos to you. I actually don't have a problem with the hyping as every ski area in this nation with the exception of very few don't hype their terrain. For example Big Sky and Killington overstate their vert, Vail doesn't happen to say that their double blacks are blues at Snowbird etc.... Nonetheless, I don't think it's prudent to go on this forum and try to convince us that your mountain is a game changer, we are educated skiers and many of us have hiked 2 hours outside of major ski areas and know what's there. We also have a history of pointing out the hype different ski areas push.

My only major contention with Soulskier was his whole green electricity initiative, which IMHO is a poor business decision and believe will jeopardize his project, as the ski industry already has razor thin margins.

Sorry Rob, I assumed since you live in New York City that you aren't looking for 45+ degree sustained slopes and no fall zones. See you in the Last Frontier.

BTW, it won't be too long until we lay out the green initiative, and why it makes financial sense. Your guys are gonna love it!

 

[Admin]

Sorry Rob, I assumed since you live in New York City that you aren't looking for 45+ degree sustained slopes and no fall zones.

Jamie, I'm often convinced that the only way you know how to dig is down.

 

[soulskier]

Nonetheless, I don't think it's prudent to go on this forum and try to convince us that your mountain is a game changer, we are educated skiers and many of us have hiked 2 hours outside of major ski areas and know what's there.

The thing you "educated skiers" can't seem to comprehend is the Manitoba out of bounds terrain is in a totally different league than anything you have hiked within 2 hours of any ski area in North America. And that my fellow snow enthusiast, is what's going to be a game changer.

 

[Admin]

The thing you "educated skiers" can't seem to comprehend is the Manitoba out of bounds terrain is in a totally different league than anything you have hiked within 2 hours of any ski area in North America. And that my fellow snow enthusiast, is what's going to be a game changer.

Jamie, something like that just begs to be called I mean, really...seriously...I've seen those aerials and there's nothing there that's more spectacular than, say, lift-accessed OB at Telluride, Alta/Bird, Jackson, Whistler, Fernie...I could go on and on but why would I bother? Steep? Check. Long? Check. Big? Check. That applies to all of them, that's not something Manitoba has a patent on.

Stable snowpack? Yeah, more so near the coast than at more continental locations. But that doesn't make it a "game changer." And all of those other locations named above are far more accessible than EBF on the Kenai. That's the game changer, but not in a good way.

I don't know why I keep letting myself get involved in these inane conversations... ](*,)

 

[soulskier]

Jamie, something like that just begs to be called I mean, really...seriously...I've seen those aerials and there's nothing there that's more spectacular than, say, lift-accessed OB at Telluride, Alta/Bird, Jackson, Whistler, Fernie...I could go on and on but why would I bother? Steep? Check. Long? Check. Big? Check. That applies to all of them, that's not something Manitoba has a patent on.

Not in the same league, I invite you to ask any expert level accomplished skier. They will all tell you Alaska is the Super Bowl and when it's on, there is nowhere better on the planet, period.

Except for Fernie, I have skied all the areas that you mention. The Chugach zone is in a different league, trust me on this.

 

[soulskier]

Better yet, watch any ski movie with a budget and tell me which segment stuck out most.

 

[rfarren]

Sorry Rob, I assumed since you live in New York City that you aren't looking for 45+ degree sustained slopes and no fall zones.

[-X
I spend a ton on skiing, just ask my wife. I get no fewer than 25 days a year of skiing. The majority of which are out west. I'm exactly your target audience; a person looking for deep, steep, and cheap. My disposable income goes towards snow adventures. If I could live out west I would but my job is unique for my location. Remember not to judge people by where they live, half of the US ski team grew up in the midwest, an area of the country quite devoid of mountains.

Based on the photos provided by your site, I don't think the terrain in itself is unique for backcountry within 2 hour hike from the top of the lifts. I do think what is unique is how the snow looks like it sticks to everything regardless of grade steepness.

I do think it's interesting that you're promoting mainly bc terrain, clearly because the inbounds isn't all that great compared to the lower 48 competitors. This might be a boon as one of the largest growing segments of the sport is on the bc end of it. I only wonder if people can sue the area if they are hurt or killed skiing the bc, especially when the area is advertising the bc.

 

[Geoff]

So yes, be successful, but cut out the overinflated hype and be conservatively rational in the financial estimates. It's those latter two that continue to rankle me, Tony, Geoff, rfarren, et al.

...along with the whole "my dick is bigger than your dick" thing.

For me, it's not the financial estimates... it's the whole naive business strategy. I've started several (moderately) successful companies from scratch where we had essentially no capital to get the company off the ground. I've gone months without drawing a pay check. I've raided my savings to buy equipment for the company. If this ski area really holds to the whole triple bottom line thing, the business is going to fail. It's all well & good that a profit machine like Ben & Jerry's could run that way before they sold out. A shoestring operation has to run incredibly lean. You're going to be paying minimum wage with no benefits. The moment business conditions turn soft, you're going to lay people off. You're going to string out your suppliers and people are going to be knocking on your door looking for money. The business is going to be green only insofar as it doesn't have the money to spend much on energy.

 

[Admin]

Not in the same league, I invite you to ask any expert level accomplished skier.

I did...I asked myself. Or are you implying something? :-" Perhaps you assumed since I live in Utah that I'm not looking for 45+ degree sustained slopes and no fall zones?

 

[Staley]

I don't know anything particular about Manitoba Mountain, but not everything in Alaska is equal. That would be like saying that a new resort in the Park City area is guaranteed to have the best snowfall in the world because Alta is right nearby.

 

[Tony Crocker]

The out of bounds experience would be something comparable to Chamonix or La Grave

As one of your "unqualified" critics, those happen to be the only 2 European ski destinations I have visited. I have also heliskied with Chugach Powder Guides in your neighborhood. Will you be providing guide service as they do in the Alps or CPG? It seems nearly mandatory as I don't get the impression that avalanche control work will be done on anything close to 10,000 acres. Nor do I suspect it's a good idea to advertise

45+ degree sustained slopes and no fall zones

and then let visitors ski them unguided. Anyone who skis that stuff without a guide at La Grave is a fool, and if we take your claims at face value the same would apply at Manitoba's OB. Silverton, which is another analogy, does not allow unguided skiing at all outside of limited terrain during shoulder season based upon snow stability.

 

[rfarren]

I know I asked this earlier, but I am interested if anybody on this forum might know to some degree:

If a mountain's main means of advertisement is it's backcountry terrain, and something goes wrong back there, even if you sign a liability waiver to access it, is the mountain subject to lawsuits etc...?

 

[Patrick]

The out of bounds experience would be something comparable to Chamonix or La Grave

As one of your "unqualified" critics, those happen to be the only 2 European ski destinations I have visited. I have also heliskied with Chugach Powder Guides in your neighborhood. Will you be providing guide service as they do in the Alps or CPG? It seems nearly mandatory as I don't get the impression that avalanche control work will be done on anything close to 10,000 acres. Nor do I suspect it's a good idea to advertise

45+ degree sustained slopes and no fall zones

and then let visitors ski them unguided. Anyone who skis that stuff without a guide at La Grave is a fool, and if we take your claims at face value the same would apply at Manitoba's OB. Silverton, which is another analogy, does not allow unguided skiing at all outside of limited terrain during shoulder season based upon snow stability.

You look at the layout and it screams at you (maybe it's the skiing geographer in me). Not everyone is going to be able (or willing) to drop off the top lift, same applies to the terrain accessed by Marte at Lenas. I don't know much of the details, just the terrain. I can think of a few areas that the bolded comment could apply in the Alps or the Andes where guided isn't given nor mandatory. Even if the Shames' backcountry.

Not that I advise people to ski La Grave without a guide, but I personally know at least two people that have. Are they fools? I don't think so, but you have to be real sure of your skiing abilities and know the terrain.

Back to your regular scheduled programming... :-D

 

[Tony Crocker]

he bolded comment could apply in the Alps or the Andes where guided isn't given nor mandatory.

The U.S. has far different liability laws, as alluded to by rfarren. That accounts for Silverton's very conservative approach to where they let people ski. One high profile disaster and the the Brills fear their minimalist operation will be out of business. This is one subject about which I hope soulskier has consulted with the Brills.

I personally know at least two people that have.

You can do that if you stay close to the lifts. If they were doing that in places like La Vaute and Le Rama I strongly suspect that they were carrying appropriate gear and were with someone who had been there before and knew where to navigate.

 

[soulskier]

Here's a relevant article.

Introducing ESPN's Sidecountry Awards, the 10 best out-of-bounds stashes accessible from resorts all over North America.

http://espn.go.com/action/freeskiing/ne ... id=6632558

 

[soulskier]

Manitoba Mountain: A new ski area wants to change the world

http://kimkircher.com/2011/06/11/manito ... the-world/

 

[rfarren]

Manitoba Mountain: A new ski area wants to change the world

http://kimkircher.com/2011/06/11/manito ... the-world/

Granted that's a puff piece, but it did quote 10000 acres for the size of the ski area, which is a blatant exaggeration. If all mountains were to count their backcountry every mountain in the country even those on the EC could legally quote near 10000 acres.

 

[Admin]

Lift served acreage is 1100, according to an MRA spokesperson. To put that in perspective that makes it half the size of Alta if you include all of Alta's hike-to in bounds terrain.

 

[Tony Crocker]

it did quote 10000 acres for the size of the ski area, which is a blatant exaggeration.

I've been ripping soulskier on this issue, but the article does have this bullet point at the bottom.

Inbounds terrain: Approximately 1,000 acres

Also,

Beyond that, thousands of backcountry acres will be available via an access gate. Riders will be required to carry avalanche equipment and take responsibility for themselves.

So yes she's giving Manitoba an overall favorable spin, but I give Kim credit for actually providing the relevant facts that I inquired about earlier in this thread and never received a response from soulskier.

FYI this is IMHO the way most of us try to write articles in ski journalism. You want to be upbeat, appeal to the readers who would like to visit a particular destination. I personally try to include important negatives so people will be accurately informed but in a diplomatic way, usually with suggestions how to mitigate those negatives.

This also caught my eye.

The terrain accessed from the rope tows will cater to beginners and intermediates.

I was under the impression from soulskier that the lifts are pomas/T-bars. I'm not sure whether soulskier is planning to inaugurate NZ-style nutcracker tows to North America, but if so that's not going to make his marketing any easier, especially to beginners and intermediates.

 

[soulskier]

This also caught my eye.

The terrain accessed from the rope tows will cater to beginners and intermediates.

I was under the impression from soulskier that the lifts are pomas/T-bars. I'm not sure whether soulskier is planning to inaugurate NZ-style nutcracker tows to North America, but if so that's not going to make his marketing any easier, especially to beginners and intermediates.

Tony, the Nutcracker lift is currently not allowed in the US, per the ANSI B77.1 Guidelines. For the time being, we are referring to the uphill transportation as surface lifts. It's likely the lower lift will be a T Bar to best accommodate beginner skiers.

Regarding the backcountry access gate, avalanche control work and guide service, we have been discussing this in detail, including talks with a colleague at Silverton. We haven't nailed down the exact details yet. I'll be sure to keep you posted.