NZ and Oz - 2020.

Tony Crocker

Administrator
Staff member
EMSC":x5t0u4i6 said:
Very surprised I have not read about big backlash there given that even Europe has seen significant pushback to non-nuanced and over-broad lock-down style government concepts.
I'm surprised too. When you visit these Oz and NZ, there's an impression the locals tend to be "rugged individualists" like the American ideal. But no question their citizens are much more compliant to government orders/regulations than Americans. Two points here though:
1) The performance of the US government in the 21st century has given its citizens more reason to distrust government than the prior decades. When vaccines finally arrive, there will be a lot of conspiracy theorists on both left and right in the US who will refuse to take it.
2) A pandemic is the type of crisis where the autocratic approach can be more effective in both limiting its spread and requiring vaccination when that time comes.

What I would like to know about Oz and NZ is how damaging to the economy have the restrictions been? How high is unemployment? Are restaurants and hotels going out of business en masse? How many industries are being bailed out by the government and/or the central banks?

EMSC":x5t0u4i6 said:
The only comparison that can be made of how any country actually did will be about 2-3 years from now.
Very true, and that applies to the economic as well as the health outcomes.

EMSC":x5t0u4i6 said:
Does this mean that James thinks that France, UK, Spain, India and Brazil and others are now the laughing stock of the world?
A couple of key cumulative stats as of 9/17:
Country, Deaths/1M pop, Cases/Tests (Positivity Rate)


Peru 939 20.7%
Belgium 856 3.5%
Andorra 686 1.1%
Spain 650 5.8%
Bolivia 639 45.9%
Brazil 634 30.5%
Chile 634 15.0%
Ecuador 623 33.0%
UK 614 1.9%
USA 610 7.2%
Italy 590 2.9%
Sweden 580 6.3%
Mexico 557 44.1%
Panama 511 24.9%
France 476 4.2%
Colombia 464 22.6%
Netherlands 366 4.3%

Selected other countries:
Argentina 275 36.4%
South Africa 265 16.5%
Canada 243 2.2%
Switzerland 236 3.9%
Germany 113 1.8%
Denmark 110 0.7%
Austria 84 2.6%
India 61 8.6%
Norway 49 1.4%
Australia 33 0.4%
S. Korea 7 1.0%
Singapore 5 2.3%
New Zealand 5 0.2%
Taiwan 0.3 0.6%

The high positivity rates imply than several Latin American countries are likely understated.

The recent case surges in France and Spain are as high as last spring.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavir ... try/spain/
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavir ... ry/france/

The cumulative death rate in the US is similar to many European countries, but should it be? The US overall has much lower population density. Where the US has high population density, the results are worse than Europe.

New Jersey 1,822 6.2%
New York 1,705 5.0%
Massachusetts 1,343 5.6%
Connecticut 1,259 3.9%
Louisiana 1,142 7.5%
Rhode Island 1,024 3.5%
Mississippi 934 13.2%
District Of Columbia 877 4.3%
Arizona 743 13.0%
Michigan 696 3.6%
Illinois 681 5.5%
Maryland 639 5.2%
Delaware 636 7.2%
Pennsylvania 624 8.2%
South Carolina 613 11.5%
Georgia 610 10.1%
Florida 609 13.4%
Indiana 517 6.1%
Texas 516 12.3%
Alabama 490 13.0%
Nevada 489 7.8%
New Mexico 399 3.2%
Iowa 397 10.7%
Ohio 392 5.2%
Arkansas 386 8.5%
California 375 5.9%
Minnesota 354 4.9%
Colorado 348 7.8%
 

EMSC

Active member
Tony Crocker":2sasru4x said:
and requiring vaccination when that time comes.

Thus far I've seen much magical thinking on a vaccine. I sure wouldn't spend my days thinking the magic bullet is about to come, at least I don't personally. Some simple facts include: 1) there has never been a vaccine created for any human corona virus strain - ever, 2) the shortest time frame in the history of vaccines is 4 years to achieve a both effective and safe vaccine. That said, if one does come along soon that will be awesome, but highly unprecedented and very iffy as to repeatability for each new virus instance over time.

Thus I'm sure not going to hold my breath on that. The rules and behaviors need to be designed to be able to last for a long period of time without destroying such things as: the rest of the health care system, the entire economy, the fun and social aspects of WHY we all like to be alive as humans in the first place. So called lockdowns do the exact opposite of what they should form an overall/big picture perspective and only prolong the overall pain of their citizens.
 

Sbooker

Member
EMSC":uko0d07m said:
Sbooker":uko0d07m said:
Rub it in.

I find it truly shocking the manner in which Oz and Kiwi lands have handled the virus. They've taken the concepts of one of the worst dictatorships in history (Communist China) and decided that that was the gold standard in how to treat people in the face of a moderate virus threat. SO many more paths are and were possible (eg South Korea or Sweden as very different examples - yet neither has locked down citizens).

While the quote was intended a bit differently at the time it was said: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" is something that comes to mind, but then I do have a strong Americanized view of how those two topics interact with each other.

I've been in-state/in-county only ~9 of the last 20 something weekends since this started, have flown cross country, and etc... Again seems shocking what I see in Oz and Kiwi lands. Very surprised I have not read about big backlash there given that even Europe has seen significant pushback to non-nuanced and over-broad lock-down style government concepts.

going back in the time-machine of this thread:
jamesdeluxe":uko0d07m said:
Are all my fellow Americans enjoying our status as the laughing stock of the world?
Does this mean that James thinks that France, UK, Spain, India and Brazil and others are now the laughing stock of the world? The only comparison that can be made of how any country actually did will be about 2-3 years from now.

It's easy for me to say because my beliefs will never be put into action but I think Australia could have handled the situation a lot better just like the USA could have.
We are very similar to the US but there are vast differences when it comes to attitudes toward freedom and rights. Here in Oz they took away our guns after the 1996 massacre in Port Arthur. In the main we said - "oh ok then". Somehow I don't think that would go down the same way in the US. :lol:
It must be said that our federal government at no point have condoned any 'lock downs' aside from the shutting of our international borders. The harsh restrictions have been put in place by state governments - in most cases those from the left side of the fence. Make of that what you will.
I totally agree that we won't know the success of the different measures put in place by the various governments from around the world for a few years yet.
 

Sbooker

Member
Tony Crocker":2js2k0lb said:
EMSC":2js2k0lb said:
What I would like to know about Oz and NZ is how damaging to the economy have the restrictions been? How high is unemployment? Are restaurants and hotels going out of business en masse? How many industries are being bailed out by the government and/or the central banks?

We don't know how the economy is really faring yet. For a couple of reasons.
Firstly the government has gone on a massive spendathon with their Jobkeeper programme. Essentially employers have been subsidized their employees wages for 6 months so that the businesses can 'hibernate' over Covid. There are some conditions for businesses to qualify but they are not overly onerous.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-07-21/ ... s/12477186" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
There are over 2 million people on Jobkeeper and that is due to be phased out starting now. Things will get real very quickly I think.
Our headline unemployment figure of 7.5% does not include those on Jobkeeper.
The other controversial programme is 'Jobseeker' - unemployment benefits. The fortnightly benefit was doubled when Covid came along in March. That's correct - doubled to $550 per week. Many many businesses can't get staff to do unskilled work because the difference between the Jobkeeper rate and minimum wage is so small.
https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal ... 55knb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Anecdotally hospitality is coping well enough in the states where restaurants etc have re-opened. In Victoria where the whole economy has been shut down for months (there is even a 9pm curfew!) is a different story. Many 3rd and 4th generation restaurants will never open their doors again apparently.
Other industries in all state aside from Victoria booming on the back of government stimulus. Car sales, homewares, home improvement have been going gang busters. Real Estate (cough cough) has been unexpectedly busy with buyer numbers far outweighing supply in most markets aside from the prestige market and some selective areas (like Victoria where the real estate market is shut).

What is strange about the measures put in place is that our federal government is a conservative one. They have been extremely vocal in the past about the importance of fiscal responsibility and the need to run budget surpluses. Obviously the stimulus programmes put in place are going to create record budget deficits. Obviously they have - perhaps behind closed doors - now adopted Modern Monetary Theory despite almost ridiculing other nations that have turned on the printing presses in recent years.

I'm lost and have no idea of what the future holds for us. I can't imagine there won't be a period of social and economic pain due to the decisions of our elected leaders. That said we're lucky to live in a truly fortunate country where tough times for us would be a dream like existence for most of the planet.
 

Sbooker

Member
Tony Crocker":1h8ywxn4 said:
Here's one sbooker will appreciate:
Trump Family Records More Cases Of Community Transmission Than Entire State Of Queensland
courtesy of Betoota Advocate, a satirical Australian news site.
Don’t get me started.
The contradictions and inconsistencies in our Covid laws are breathtaking. I visited a cafe on Saturday morning but the cafe is not permitted to allow dining because it is deemed to ‘unsafe’ due to lack of size.
Meanwhile the evening prior there was 30000 people at The Gabba for the AFL final.
There hasn’t been a case of community transmission in the state of NSW for 2 weeks yet my father in laws brother wasn’t permitted to enter the state of Queensland for my FIL’s funeral last week. Disgusting.
 

ShiftyRider

Member
EMSC":fz5z5iih said:
jamesdeluxe":fz5z5iih said:
Are all my fellow Americans enjoying our status as the laughing stock of the world?
Does this mean that James thinks that France, UK, Spain, India and Brazil and others are now the laughing stock of the world?
Which of those countries' leader did debates and fundraisers so they could infect those around them. Cuz unless you have trouble counting backwards, if Trump isn't contagious now or for his next brain-dead rally then according to his own CDC he was contagious early last week.

While you were sleeping...
 

EMSC

Active member
ShiftyRider":250cv9c2 said:
Which of those countries' leader did debates and fundraisers so they could infect those around them. Cuz unless you have trouble counting backwards, if Trump isn't contagious now or for his next brain-dead rally then according to his own CDC he was contagious early last week

Not sure what one individuals choice has to do with viewing an entire country's response. If what one single politician does or doesn't do rules your entire life/viewpoint, then I have to feel sorry for them. Because Macron in France wears a mask and talks more politicianly, means that the huge crush of new cases there is okey, dokey then? Europe screwed up their response pretty badly, as is now apparent. Doesn't matter what Macron does or doesn't personally do, or say to a press microphone for example. It's not changing the course of anything for France. He should have been getting his county's various systems and workers ready for a virus that is endemic in the world, which he didn't. Either that or the reality is that the governments across the world don't have the power, competence and etc... for such a response and should have taken maybe Sweden's approach of designing systems for long term compliance, not overwhelming healthcare; instead of economic destruction and slow boil rebellions among other easily foreseen side effects.

It would seem that only small homogenous populations have had any other decent outcomes so far (eg South Korea, Singapore).
 

Sbooker

Member
EMSC":1b5d1ru7 said:
ShiftyRider":1b5d1ru7 said:
Which of those countries' leader did debates and fundraisers so they could infect those around them. Cuz unless you have trouble counting backwards, if Trump isn't contagious now or for his next brain-dead rally then according to his own CDC he was contagious early last week

Not sure what one individuals choice has to do with viewing an entire country's response. If what one single politician does or doesn't do rules your entire life/viewpoint, then I have to feel sorry for them. Because Macron in France wears a mask and talks more politicianly, means that the huge crush of new cases there is okey, dokey then? Europe screwed up their response pretty badly, as is now apparent. Doesn't matter what Macron does or doesn't personally do, or say to a press microphone for example. It's not changing the course of anything for France. He should have been getting his county's various systems and workers ready for a virus that is endemic in the world, which he didn't. Either that or the reality is that the governments across the world don't have the power, competence and etc... for such a response and should have taken maybe Sweden's approach of designing systems for long term compliance, not overwhelming healthcare; instead of economic destruction and slow boil rebellions among other easily foreseen side effects.

It would seem that only small homogenous populations have had any other decent outcomes so far (eg South Korea, Singapore).

As previously said we might be best off making that assessment in a couple of years. So far my State's Covid infection numbers and Covid deaths have been impressively low - largely due to a sparse population - but that does not gauge other factors like economic health, mental health of the population or personal liberty.
Looking on as an outsider it doesn't seem the US (or many parts of it) has got it quite right either though.

The Oz winter is now well and truly dead and buried. I will now look forward to my next realistic chance of clicking in which will be in August 2021. Hopefully I can travel to NZ.
 

ShiftyRider

Member
EMSC":2sns4x4g said:
Not sure what one individuals choice has to do with viewing an entire country's response.
Leadership matters.
Unity is strength.
We all benefit, when each of us cares about (not infecting) our neighbor.
 

Tony Crocker

Administrator
Staff member
sbooker":2cut8sej said:
As previously said we might be best off making that assessment in a couple of years. So far my State's Covid infection numbers and Covid deaths have been impressively low - largely due to a sparse population - but that does not gauge other factors like economic health, mental health of the population or personal liberty.
+1 I agree 100% that a sparse vs. dense population makes COVID-19 much easier to control. NYC was Exhibit A. Europe is much denser than the USA or Canada overall. The US has a mix of dense and sparse populations and thus overall should do better than Europe. But in the US the sparse areas caught up to the dense ones over the summer and remain worse now. Why is that? Here are the top 13 states in per 1M capita COVID-19 case count:
1 Louisiana 36,010 19.64%
2 Mississippi 33,657 17.80%
3 Florida 33,271 1.19%
4 Alabama 32,301 27.73%
5 North Dakota 30,357 35.73%
6 Georgia 30,335 5.10%
7 Arizona 30,280 3.50%
8 South Carolina 29,307 14.27%
9 Tennessee 29,227 26.01%
10 Iowa 29,148 9.41%
11 Arkansas 28,672 26.92%
12 Texas 27,665 9.00%
13 South Dakota 27,113 29.79%
Average 30,401 10.5%

New York and New Jersey led that list by a mile on 4/30. Now they rank 15th and 19th. The percentage in the third column is the percentage by which Trump won the state (all 13 of them!) in 2016. Weighted by population he won those states by 10.5% while losing the overall popular vote by 2.1%.

EMSC":2cut8sej said:
If what one single politician does or doesn't do rules your entire life/viewpoint, then I have to feel sorry for them.
Then you better feel sorry for the 30% or so of the US population that swallows everything fed to them by Trump and Fox News at face value. Do you have a better explanation for why the spread of COVID-19 is so high in sparsely populated areas of the U.S.?

EMSC":2cut8sej said:
It would seem that only small homogenous populations have had any other decent outcomes so far (eg South Korea, Singapore).
Homogeneous is the key adjective here. South Korea has a population of 51 million and Taiwan 24 million, both with at least Euro-level population density. Also important is the willingness of the people to follow orders from government/health professionals speaking with a unified voice. The Asian countries also have a recent tradition of mask-wearing from the SARS and MERS outbreaks.

EMSC":2cut8sej said:
...Sweden's approach of designing systems for long term compliance, not overwhelming healthcare; instead of economic destruction and slow boil rebellions among other easily foreseen side effects....
might have been a better strategy for the diverse and impatient makeup of the U.S. population. But it was definitely the wrong approach for Sweden itself. All the Scandinavian countries have small homogeneous populations with high trust in government, so no surprise Denmark has half the case rate and 1/4 the death rate of Sweden while Norway and Finland have 1/5 the case rate and 1/10 the death rate.

Other factors equal, compliant populations are going to do better in a pandemic scenario. Germany is another country where the people are known to be good at following orders :lol:. The U.S. was always going to be more difficult in this regard. Independence, questioning authority, etc. are more often than not a strength of American character, but a pandemic is an exception to that.
 

Sbooker

Member
^^^^^
I hadn't thought about it that way to be honest and I had no idea the red States had the highest incidence of Covid.
I do agree with your observation that the compliant populations seem to fare best in pandemics.
 

ShiftyRider

Member
I had no idea the red States
...are where the best and brightest grow up to excel at either Prison Guard or Auto Repair Tech
...don't get visited by blue Staters on vacation
...have lotsa bumper stickers about beer and incest
...are where they breathe thru their mouths
1 Louisiana 36,010 19.64%
2 Mississippi 33,657 17.80%
3 Florida 33,271 1.19%
4 Alabama 32,301 27.73%
5 North Dakota 30,357 35.73%
6 Georgia 30,335 5.10%
7 Arizona 30,280 3.50%
8 South Carolina 29,307 14.27%
9 Tennessee 29,227 26.01%
10 Iowa 29,148 9.41%
11 Arkansas 28,672 26.92%
12 Texas 27,665 9.00%
13 South Dakota 27,113 29.79%
 

Sbooker

Member
ShiftyRider":2ut39n7t said:
I had no idea the red States
...are where the best and brightest grow up to excel at either Prison Guard or Auto Repair Tech
...don't get visited by blue Staters on vacation
...have lotsa bumper stickers about beer and incest
...are where they breathe thru their mouths
1 Louisiana 36,010 19.64%
2 Mississippi 33,657 17.80%
3 Florida 33,271 1.19%
4 Alabama 32,301 27.73%
5 North Dakota 30,357 35.73%
6 Georgia 30,335 5.10%
7 Arizona 30,280 3.50%
8 South Carolina 29,307 14.27%
9 Tennessee 29,227 26.01%
10 Iowa 29,148 9.41%
11 Arkansas 28,672 26.92%
12 Texas 27,665 9.00%
13 South Dakota 27,113 29.79%
Your post doesn’t make it clear what side of the political divide you sit. Let me guess. You wear a MAGA cap?
 

ShiftyRider

Member
Regretfully, Hughes/Cain 2020 was my choice...
4ii34u.jpg
 

EMSC

Active member
Tony Crocker":amotrrub said:
Then you better feel sorry for the 30% or so of the US population that swallows everything fed to them by Trump and Fox News at face value. Do you have a better explanation for why the spread of COVID-19 is so high in sparsely populated areas of the U.S.?

I'm equal opportunity. I feel just as sorry for the 30+% of the population that hangs on every word of various Democrats as well. There is literally no politician that I've ever said "I'd like to vote for that person". I choose the less bad of usually two rather poor options in every race (I've never voted either party as a straight party ticket either - that's for fools to vote that way). I also don't suffer the foolish ramblings of any politician or need them to 'lead' me in what to think or do. Like I said, I feel super sorry for those that are unable to think for themselves and lead themselves in life. It has to be a very limiting, fear filled, unfulfilling life to not be capable of independent thought.

Tony Crocker":amotrrub said:
Homogeneous is the key adjective here.

I think "small" is also very appropriate, as in geographically small. Most probably don't know that Seoul metro is massive and literally 50% of the entire country's population for example. The rest of the country can be reached in a single day... It's about the size of Indiana. Denmark certainly fits both criteria well, the rest of Scandinavia less so on the geographical size.

Tony Crocker":amotrrub said:
so no surprise Denmark has half the case rate and 1/4 the death rate of Sweden while Norway and Finland have 1/5 the case rate and 1/10 the death rate.
We'll see what the rates are in 2-3 years. Still not holding my breath on a vaccine in a few weeks/months time. If no viable vaccine within the next few months then some form of herd immunity or Swedish way will look ever more correct. If a vaccine magically appears then holding out with bad rules may have been more appropriate. The big problem is that you cannot know ahead of time which is more correct. However, the longer things go, the Swedish method will be the ever more clear path that should (have) been taken.
 

Tony Crocker

Administrator
Staff member
EMSC":2iug6anf said:
I feel just as sorry for the 30+% of the population that hangs on every word of various Democrats as well.
Over the years I've taken more than my share of shots at that group too. After all I was married to one of those for 21 years. :lol: But with specific reference to the pandemic, Trump's detachment from reality can be particularly damaging to those who take him seriously. Just ask Herman Cain!

EMSC":2iug6anf said:
The big problem is that you cannot know ahead of time which is more correct.
The pandemic has been effectively contained so far by:
1) An extreme but fairly short initial shutdown that drove new cases to a very low level.
2) Aggressive contact tracing/quarantining of new cases after reopening with widespread cooperation of the public.
The above has worked effectively so far for some of East Asia, Scandinavia (aside from Sweden) and Australia/New Zealand. But you need an homogenous and compliant population and low population density helps.

EMSC":2iug6anf said:
Denmark certainly fits both criteria well, the rest of Scandinavia less so on the geographical size.
The larger geographic size is an advantage for those other countries as density is lower. The same goes for Australia, where a surge in cases in Victoria has been kept out of the other states.

#1 never happened in the U.S. Many states had severe spring shutdowns but community transmission remained significant and testing was poorly organized with unacceptably long turnaround times.

#1 did happen in western Europe but the current new case counts are as high as last spring. All three factors above are not as favorable as for East Asia, Scandinavia and Australia/New Zealand.

The Euro experience implies that even if the spring response in the U.S. had been more competent, we might still be struggling now with a significant second round.

While many of us Americans have conducted our daily lives according to personal views of what behavior is risky or not, there is the perhaps more serious issue of non-cooperation among those exposed or positive. L.A. County tries to do contact tracing but reports a high proportion of respondents who refuse to name their contacts. Of course the White House didn't cooperate with contact tracing either. :stir:
 

ShiftyRider

Member
Leadership is now a pejorative to some, wow. On a macro scale, leadership is needed to win a war. On a micro scale, folks like us get to choose our doctor, so I humbly recommend picking one who knows more about health and medicine than you do, EMSC. Then listen to them, okay?
 

Tony Crocker

Administrator
Staff member
sbooker":2a3e66vl said:
I visited a cafe on Saturday morning but the cafe is not permitted to allow dining because it is deemed to ‘unsafe’ due to lack of size. Meanwhile the evening prior there was 30000 people at The Gabba for the AFL final.Meanwhile the evening prior there was 30,000 people at The Gabba for the AFL final.
Yes, I see a contradiction there. If Queensland is sealed off as effectively as it seems, there should be minimal if any restriction on activities/businesses etc. internally.

Indoor dining is one of the borderline cases in the US. It is still forbidden in Miami, Chicago and Los Angeles of the places we have been. Other places are generally at 25% (generally not considered viable by most restaurants unless in addition to outdoor and takeout) or 50%.

Here in SoCal, there are several areas where cities have blocked off street parking in order to expand outdoor dining, in addition to the many restaurants that have put up tents in their parking lots. We expect most of our restaurant dining to be outdoors for the foreseeable future here. Isn't there a lot of outdoor dining in Queensland with the Florida type weather?

In areas of the U.S. with cold winters that will not be viable. It was already winter in Boulder Sept. 8-9, so fortunately we could dine indoors there.

Stadium sporting events are still mostly without fans here. Here's the status of the NFL. Many states still allow no fans in their stadiums. The ones that do tend to be at 15-20% capacity with no one over 25%.

Baseball had no fans during the regular season. The World Series and NLCS are in Texas and allow about 25% attendance. Yes, I was thinking about that for WS but not so likely now. :evil: The ALCS is in San Diego with no fans as California won't allow it for that or the 3 NFL teams in the state.

I'm also puzzled by the Euro response to the recent surge. Bars/pubs are clearly among the riskiest environments and the Euro response is a 9PM curfew? So it's OK to infect people before then?

People are less likely to respect regulations that lack common sense. Last spring big box stores could sell anything they wanted as long as they had a grocery department deemed "essential." Meanwhile lots of small businesses were forced to close completely. Surely it would be fairer to enforce the same rules (capacity limits/mask wearing) on all retail-type businesses.
 

Sbooker

Member
Tony Crocker":1xz2upm0 said:
sbooker":1xz2upm0 said:
I visited a cafe on Saturday morning but the cafe is not permitted to allow dining because it is deemed to ‘unsafe’ due to lack of size. Meanwhile the evening prior there was 30000 people at The Gabba for the AFL final.Meanwhile the evening prior there was 30,000 people at The Gabba for the AFL final.
Yes, I see a contradiction there. If Queensland is sealed off as effectively as it seems, there should be minimal if any restriction on activities/businesses etc. internally.

Indoor dining is one of the borderline cases in the US. It is still forbidden in Miami, Chicago and Los Angeles of the places we have been. Other places are generally at 25% (generally not considered viable by most restaurants unless in addition to outdoor and takeout) or 50%.

Here in SoCal, there are several areas where cities have blocked off street parking in order to expand outdoor dining, in addition to the many restaurants that have put up tents in their parking lots. We expect most of our restaurant dining to be outdoors for the foreseeable future here. Isn't there a lot of outdoor dining in Queensland with the Florida type weather?

In areas of the U.S. with cold winters that will not be viable. It was already winter in Boulder Sept. 8-9, so fortunately we could dine indoors there.

Stadium sporting events are still mostly without fans here. Here's the status of the NFL. Many states still allow no fans in their stadiums. The ones that do tend to be at 15-20% capacity with no one over 25%.

Baseball had no fans during the regular season. The World Series and NLCS are in Texas and allow about 25% attendance. Yes, I was thinking about that for WS but not so likely now. :evil: The ALCS is in San Diego with no fans as California won't allow it for that or the 3 NFL teams in the state.

I'm also puzzled by the Euro response to the recent surge. Bars/pubs are clearly among the riskiest environments and the Euro response is a 9PM curfew? So it's OK to infect people before then?

People are less likely to respect regulations that lack common sense. Last spring big box stores could sell anything they wanted as long as they had a grocery department deemed "essential." Meanwhile lots of small businesses were forced to close completely. Surely it would be fairer to enforce the same rules (capacity limits/mask wearing) on all retail-type businesses.

There is so much inconsistency and contradiction with regard Covid here in Queensland and it appears the same in many other places across the globe. Your observation that without any cases movement within the state should be unrestricted is obviously correct but that would mean our politicians would have to relinquish the control that they seem to enjoy having over the population. Businesses had to set up 'Covid safe' plans to open after the initial lock down. Those plans still have to be adhered to.
Outdoor dining is permitted here but only under certain conditions. Size of venue is one. The other is a 'per square metre' rule. That can effectively mean it's not viable for the business to open. It's heartbreaking for these business owners. Meanwhile crowds at some sporting fixtures are huge because it appears that big business is way more important than small business. Celebs and sporting people are allowed to enter the state without quarantine but grieving family members aren't permitted to enter Queensland from other states to attend funerals or visit relatives on their deathbeds in hospital. It's sickening.
The new case numbers (community transmission not including returned travelers in quarantine) here in Oz yesterday -
NSW - 2
Vic - 2
Qld - 0
NT - 0
WA - 0
Tas - 0
SA - 0
And our fu(*ing border is shut. It's beyond frustrating.
*We are permitted to travel to SA and NT. But none of the other states.
 
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