Project 101: USA Road Trip
- Thread starter jamesdeluxe
- Start date
I interviewed him last night while he was at the airport and we discussed some of the comments/critical observations made here. Will post next week.
jasoncapecod
Well-known member
Ending a ski trip at Mountain Creek is possibly the most depressing thing you can do
Au contraire! He was mildly impressed by it and wasn't expecting a ski area in New Jersey to be decent-sized (apples to apples for the northeast). He said conditions were nice -- as they were throughout the entire midwest and northeastern segments of his trip -- and it was a good conclusion.
ChrisC
Well-known member
My questions I was most interested in: two categories
1. Terrain
2. Feel for a place in a 45-120 min visit
3. Euro piste skier only?
What terrain were you most interested in skiing?
What mountain had the best ski terrain?
Why no tree skiing?
Did you ski natural snow ungroomed runs?
Do you think you can get a feel for a large mountain like Sunday River, Wildcat, Loon, Mad River Glen in visits that are likely 60-90 min - and no more than 2 hours?
Do you ski large Euro Mountains in less than 2 hours?
Why did you think Stowe was a groomer/cruising mountain?
Have you heard of Stowe’s Front Four or ski any - especially considering Goat, Starr were peak snow conditions (top5-10%)?
Most interested ***Number #1 Question***
How many times per day do you take ski boots on and off? 4x in one day - I could not do it!
1. Terrain
2. Feel for a place in a 45-120 min visit
3. Euro piste skier only?
What terrain were you most interested in skiing?
What mountain had the best ski terrain?
Why no tree skiing?
Did you ski natural snow ungroomed runs?
Do you think you can get a feel for a large mountain like Sunday River, Wildcat, Loon, Mad River Glen in visits that are likely 60-90 min - and no more than 2 hours?
Do you ski large Euro Mountains in less than 2 hours?
Why did you think Stowe was a groomer/cruising mountain?
Have you heard of Stowe’s Front Four or ski any - especially considering Goat, Starr were peak snow conditions (top5-10%)?
Most interested ***Number #1 Question***
How many times per day do you take ski boots on and off? 4x in one day - I could not do it!
I'll present all of the questions to worldskitraveller and ask him to answer as many or as few as he likes.
I'd be curious to know how much he knew about the smaller hills before he arrived. Was it just a name on the Indy pass list? Did he look at the website for that mountain? Did he look a written overview on a website such as OnTheSnow?
When did he start planning this trip?
For context, I've skied at least a day at almost half of the places he went starting on Feb. 18 in Michigan. There are another nine that I've stopped by the base during a driving trip in the northeast in the past decade for reasons unrelated to skiing. There are a few places near where he went that I've either skied or checked out the base only. I can tell a lot about the vibe and target market for a small place by seeing the base area and parking lots first hand. After being there for even 15 minutes, the trail map makes far more sense.
Skiing a large resort during early season is enough for me to get a sense of a mountain. I did that at Loon and Killington, among others in the northeast when my daughter was in school either in Lake Placid or Boston.
I sent him that question. I suspect that he uses the same website that I do for Europe. Click on the map link.
I've looked at that website before. The info on OnTheSnow is much better for the USA.
Skiresort uses 1-5 star ratings for ski area size, trail variety, lifts. But an evaluation is not necessarily based on actual experience. Fair to stay that the evaluation for small New England ski areas are probably not based on in-person "testing." Looking at the top ski resorts in N. America for Beginners gives a list of 66 resorts, which are almost all destination resort. Big SNOW (indoor slope in NJ) was included.
Example for Ragged in NH:
LOL, the list for "Beginner-friendly ski resorts Appalachian Mountains" by SkiResortInfo has six resorts:
Sunday River, ME
Killington, VT
Stowe, VT
Bolton, VT
Whiteface, NY
Bromont, QUE
Needless to say, Whiteface is not in the Appalachian mountain range. While the Appalachian Trail goes through VT and ME, I don't think many people would come up with these resorts as the best beginner resorts in New England.
Sunday River, ME
Killington, VT
Stowe, VT
Bolton, VT
Whiteface, NY
Bromont, QUE
Needless to say, Whiteface is not in the Appalachian mountain range. While the Appalachian Trail goes through VT and ME, I don't think many people would come up with these resorts as the best beginner resorts in New England.
I obviously don't use that site for details about Euro ski areas, and especially not for North American ones, just for where they're plotted on a map. I decide whether to visit them or not by checking out trip reports on British, French, and German forums.
skiresort.info is an excellent resource for:
1) A comprehensive list of ski resorts, even obscure ones in exotic locations.
2) The site for each resort nearly always includes a trail map.
It never occurred to me to consider their star ratings.
Stowe and Mad River, skied comprehensively mid-March 2003, yes I think I have excellent senses of those places.
As for worldskitraveler, I say he has zero sense of Taos or Crested Butte. At Taos he rode a lift over Al's Run and may have looked up at Kachina Peak from the backside. But in CB's case, you don't even get to see the North Face terrain if the lift is not open.
In my case, I could look up at Pila's closed upper lifts, but at Aletsch I never saw the large sectors that were closed.
1) A comprehensive list of ski resorts, even obscure ones in exotic locations.
2) The site for each resort nearly always includes a trail map.
It never occurred to me to consider their star ratings.
ratings operate on the wrong premise. The best beginner resort is one close to home where you can climb the learning curve skiing lots of days (partial days for young kids) at low cost in time and $. The SoCal locals were quite effective for me in that regard in 1977-78 and 1978-79.
Yes and no, and depends upon topography and how large. I skied Stratton, Sunday River and Sugarbush in early December 2018, all about 35% open. I had favorable impressions of Stratton's Ursa groomers, but never saw the rest of the hill. Sunday River sprawled at far distances left and right of the central chairs that were running. We had fresh snow at Sugarbush and Liz showed me a couple of interesting natural snow trails but I never saw Castlerock or Mt. Ellen. I don't think many Easterners would say I have an "adequate sense of the mountain" based on those days.
Stowe and Mad River, skied comprehensively mid-March 2003, yes I think I have excellent senses of those places.
As for worldskitraveler, I say he has zero sense of Taos or Crested Butte. At Taos he rode a lift over Al's Run and may have looked up at Kachina Peak from the backside. But in CB's case, you don't even get to see the North Face terrain if the lift is not open.
In my case, I could look up at Pila's closed upper lifts, but at Aletsch I never saw the large sectors that were closed.
Below is a recent post on the Alpinfans forum with a couple 
(but not inaccurate) thoughts. Regarding the uphill transport comment: as we've noted, worldskitraveller's itinerary included dozens of small/tiny indie places -- our version of the "James areas" that I favor in the Alps -- that helped him reach that total number of 79 and of course they usually rely on outdated lifts.
A fantastic trip! I enjoyed following your travels, which make me want to see more and maybe even go there myself someday!
I'm amazed at how many ski areas the USA has outside of the major ones that we Europeans associate with the country. It wasn't until videos of J.D. Vance skiing in Vermont surfaced that I really became aware of what's available, even close to New York City. The photos remind me of my time in the Harz and Sauerland regions of Germany, and even more so of my ski trip to Poland and Slovakia.
We're obviously spoiled by having the Alps -- a stunning mountain range almost entirely covered by ski lifts -- right in the heart of Europe. Many Americans have to travel long distances to reach their signature mountains (which oftentimes don't look that spectacular to us) and that's why they also enjoy skiing in places that, from our perspective, are just "hills." It's kind of like what the Dutch do in the Sauerland, although it's much less of a haul for them to get to the Alps than it is for NYCers to get to Colorado, Washington state, Idaho, etc.
Your series of reports, however, also confirms the stereotype that the USA has many outdated, rickety lift systems. Here and there you see a gondola or a detachable chairlift, but in many pictures I see uncomfortable fixed-grip chairlifts, old snow cannons, and other outdated infrastructure. Compared to that, even European ski resorts outside the Alps are much more advanced. It's crazy. Not that something like that would deter me from a trip to the USA, but for the "greatest country on earth" -- as many Americans like to see their own country -- it's quite pathetic.
What was the price level in these areas outside of the expensive high-mountain resorts if you only wanted to buy a day pass without Ikon or Epic? And are those handheld scanners instead of RFID turnstiles still mostly in use at the lifts?
(but not inaccurate) thoughts. Regarding the uphill transport comment: as we've noted, worldskitraveller's itinerary included dozens of small/tiny indie places -- our version of the "James areas" that I favor in the Alps -- that helped him reach that total number of 79 and of course they usually rely on outdated lifts.A fantastic trip! I enjoyed following your travels, which make me want to see more and maybe even go there myself someday!
I'm amazed at how many ski areas the USA has outside of the major ones that we Europeans associate with the country. It wasn't until videos of J.D. Vance skiing in Vermont surfaced that I really became aware of what's available, even close to New York City. The photos remind me of my time in the Harz and Sauerland regions of Germany, and even more so of my ski trip to Poland and Slovakia.
We're obviously spoiled by having the Alps -- a stunning mountain range almost entirely covered by ski lifts -- right in the heart of Europe. Many Americans have to travel long distances to reach their signature mountains (which oftentimes don't look that spectacular to us) and that's why they also enjoy skiing in places that, from our perspective, are just "hills." It's kind of like what the Dutch do in the Sauerland, although it's much less of a haul for them to get to the Alps than it is for NYCers to get to Colorado, Washington state, Idaho, etc.
Your series of reports, however, also confirms the stereotype that the USA has many outdated, rickety lift systems. Here and there you see a gondola or a detachable chairlift, but in many pictures I see uncomfortable fixed-grip chairlifts, old snow cannons, and other outdated infrastructure. Compared to that, even European ski resorts outside the Alps are much more advanced. It's crazy. Not that something like that would deter me from a trip to the USA, but for the "greatest country on earth" -- as many Americans like to see their own country -- it's quite pathetic.
What was the price level in these areas outside of the expensive high-mountain resorts if you only wanted to buy a day pass without Ikon or Epic? And are those handheld scanners instead of RFID turnstiles still mostly in use at the lifts?
Do Europeans know that it's possible to have handheld scanners for RFID lift access cards?
Vail Resorts developed their own RFID system for Epic partially to allow that feature. Axess didn't offer that as an option until relatively recently. Makes a big difference for ski areas that aren't destination resorts in terms of the total cost of moving to RFID for lift access.
Handheld scanners, including those that work with RFIDs, went the way of the dodo bird by the mid-00s over there. Back then 20 years ago, the only place where I skied in the U.S. that had the turnstiles was Solitude.
EMSC
Well-known member
Humorous comment IMO on lift systems. Certainly an example where they are used to the local towns providing significant $$ toward the ski operators for capital projects vs lift ticket only funded lifts in the US by exclusively private operators. Certainly a little like our various governments in other areas (roads, military, etc...). When its not your own money, who cares how expensive the lifts (bridges, planes, missiles, etc...) are? No way you would see even half the gondolas, trams, 3S combi's and etc... that are in Europe without big $$ coming from lodging and other taxes that US ski areas have no access to.
An interesting question about subsidies and how much of a role they play in the bonkers (to us) lift infrastructure at many resorts in Europe. I suppose that I should know about them but I don't. As you've seen in my reports, the obscure places that I visit clearly don't get government money. They're the same "outdated, rickety" level of uphill transport as the equivalent indie areas here.
My understanding is that Austria subsidizes the most, then Italy, France some and Switzerland not at all. I thought James said that’s the reason so many more surface lifts in Switzerland.
The comment about surface lifts in Switzerland was hearsay from someone on a lift in far western Austria, Brandnertal, 11 years ago; however, I never reality-checked it. Here's what our favorite faux person has to say and I asked the question in a neutral way, without putting my thumb on the scale.
Switzerland: limited, cautious public funding
- Swiss ski lifts are typically owned by private or semi-private companies.
- comfort upgrades
- high-cost replacements that don’t clearly improve safety or regional access
- Result: resorts are cost-disciplined and choose surface lifts where they’re operationally sufficient.
If a T-bar works reliably in wind and costs ¼ the price of a chair, Swiss operators often stick with it.
Austria: strong regional subsidies
- Austrian ski infrastructure benefits from:
- provincial (Land) subsidies
- tourism-development funds
- coordinated regional planning
- improve interconnection
- extend seasons
- increase capacity
France: municipal ownership model
- Many French ski areas are municipally owned or concessioned.
- amortized over decades
- supported by local or regional governments
Why subsidies matter specifically for lift type
Chairlifts and gondolas aren’t just more expensive to build — they also:- require larger foundations
- incur higher maintenance and staffing costs
- face greater wind downtime in high alpine zones
- Swiss operators must justify every franc of ROI
- glacier zones
- expert terrain
- short or low-volume sectors
- Austria and France can justify chairs as public goods, not just ski transport.
Important nuance (this matters)
Switzerland does subsidize lifts indirectly, but selectively:- transport integration (ski lifts doubling as alpine transit)
- safety upgrades
- climate adaptation measures
- subsidize comfort-only modernization
- underwrite high-cost lift swaps just to match competitors
Bottom line
Surface lifts persist in Switzerland not because resorts are underfunded, but because:- Public subsidies are limited and targeted
- Operators must self-finance most upgrades
- Surface lifts are cheaper, more wind-resilient, and glacier-friendly
- Swiss culture prioritizes function over comfort signaling
jimk
Well-known member
When I was skiing the Mannlichen ski area near Grindelwald in late Jan 2026 I had an interesting chat on a chairlift with a man from Zurich. He asked if it's true that lift tickets are very expensive in America? I told him about the season pass driving economics. A one day ticket at a big name resort is ~200 swiss francs, but then you can buy a mega pass like Epic or Ikon for ~1000 swiss francs and ski 30 great mountains every day of the winter. He acknowledged what I said, but was still concerned about expenses.
I didn't have time to mention some other differences. Some of it comes down to familiarity. I could have advised him on how to do a relatively cheap American trip and I'm sure he could have advised me the same about Europe. I paid big bucks for my lodging in Chamonix and Switzerland, much more than I would pay in North America, mostly because I wanted to be close to town centers and train/bus stations and didn't want to be stuck on the outskirts somewhere. The big bucks I paid would be equivalent if I stayed very close to chairlifts at places like Vail and Aspen, which I don't normally do.
I didn't have time to mention some other differences. Some of it comes down to familiarity. I could have advised him on how to do a relatively cheap American trip and I'm sure he could have advised me the same about Europe. I paid big bucks for my lodging in Chamonix and Switzerland, much more than I would pay in North America, mostly because I wanted to be close to town centers and train/bus stations and didn't want to be stuck on the outskirts somewhere. The big bucks I paid would be equivalent if I stayed very close to chairlifts at places like Vail and Aspen, which I don't normally do.