Psychology of the Pissing Match

[jamesdeluxe]

What is it about downhill skiing that makes everyone always want to prove that their corner of the universe is better? I hang out on mtb forums and never see this level of knuckleheadedness.

Is it something you grow out of, get bored with, or keep doing until you fall into a tree well?

Go ahead... give me your best theory.

 

[Patrick]

What is it about downhill skiing that makes everyone always want to prove that their corner of the universe is better? I hang out on mtb forums and never see this level of knuckleheadedness.

Skiing forums are way better, mtb forums suck!!! :wink:

 

[Tony Crocker]

Excellent question by jamesdeluxe.

It's a lot more enjoyable and healthier to be an optimist. If you think the place you live sucks, you're going to be unhappy and not pleasant to be around much of the time.

Icelantic and Patrick are close to delusional on this subject IMHO, but they usually make the best of their circumstances and if they are happy with it, fine.

Even on FTO skiing isn't everything. Sharon has a fairly realistic view, and if skiing were everything she would have decamped to SLC long ago IMHO. Most of her quality of life is very high where she is and would degrade if she moved. Nearly everyone has to evaluate these tradeoffs.

 

[mikesathome]

What is it about downhill skiing that makes everyone always want to prove that their corner of the universe is better? I hang out on mtb forums and never see this level of knuckleheadedness.

Is it something you grow out of, get bored with, or keep doing until you fall into a tree well?

Go ahead... give me your best theory.

Aggreed, MTB forms I visit are not as bad.

As i sit here in the flat Midwest, with just as much passion for the sport as anyone, reading post (with pictures please!) of powder days, east vs west, elevation, snow preservation, January thaws, etc etc
I cant help but think, YOU PEOPLE SHOULD STFU AND BE HAPPY YOU HAVE HILLS LARGER THAN 500 FEET TO SKI/RIDE/SLIDE ON! ](*,)

Seriously, we all should be happy we can afford to ski, as there are a LOT of people hurting just to pay bills and food on the table in this country, and in this world.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Some skiers want to settle in at an area that they know extremely well. There are obvious advantages in knowing from experience when lifts/terrain will open and being able to get the maximum out of nearly every ski day vs. someone new on a learning curve.

I'm not in this camp. I have what admin described a while back as the "wanderlust gene." There are favored places like Mammoth and Snowbird that I ski every year, but I usually make an effort to add new places.

Admin and I were tied for number of ski areas visited when he moved to Utah. I'm not surprised that he stopped traveling when his local quality is that high, but I am surprised that he's doing 75% of his skiing at one place without the financial incentive that makes that decision for some people. It's hard for me to see myself doing that.

 

[joegm]

I cant help but think, YOU PEOPLE SHOULD STFU AND BE HAPPY YOU HAVE HILLS LARGER THAN 500 FEET TO SKI/RIDE/SLIDE ON! ](*,)

Seriously, we all should be happy we can afford to ski, as there are a LOT of people hurting just to pay bills and food on the table in this country, and in this world.[/quote]


yup

 

[Patrick]

I have what admin described a while back as the "wanderlust gene." There are favored places like Mammoth and Snowbird that I ski every year, but I usually make an effort to add new places.

We definitely have some similarities. :-k People were calling me crazy for heading toward Pucon, Chapelco or not staying at La Hoya and heading to Bariloche. I needed to check these places out for myself and pass my own judgment on them.

Admin and I were tied for number of ski areas visited when he moved to Utah. I'm not surprised that he stopped traveling when his local quality is that high, but I am surprised that he's doing 75% of his skiing at one place without the financial incentive that makes that decision for some people. It's hard for me to see myself doing that.

Tremblant is the best easy one day drive destination since I've lived in Ottawa (14 seasons) and number one destination (not favorite), I've had a season pass there as a kid (prior to counting my ski days). Regardless, I barely ski more than 100 days in close to 900 days since 1981.

 

[Tony Crocker]

We definitely have some similarities.

No doubt that's the reason I rag on Patrick for some of his choices. I would have had exactly the same attitude in Argentina about wanting to check out as many places as possible. Thus my critique of depending on public transport.

Regardless, I barely ski more than 100 days in close to 900 days since 1981.

It is particularly puzzling to me when easterners tie themselves to one area since there are so many areas, 99% of them well under 1,000 acres and no one over 1,500. There has to be a massive financial inducement to consider that IMHO.

I suspect SoCal has as large a proportion of people as anywhere with 50+% of lifetime skiing at one area, since Mammoth is so far above any reasonably accessible drive-up competition.

 

[Admin]

I would have had exactly the same attitude in Argentina about wanting to check out as many places as possible. Thus my critique of depending on public transport.

:dead horse:

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Icelantic and Patrick are close to delusional on this subject IMHO, but they usually make the best of their circumstances and if they are happy with it, fine.

Why is Patrick delusional? Seems like he looks at his Ottawa molehills the same way I would consider a few hours of night skiing at Camelback, PA: like going to the gym. And as mentioned last spring, if making lots of trips to undersized joints helps me ski as well as him, I'll take the abuse from the collective.

Icelantic's been taking his lumps lately, but I understand where he's coming from on certain topics. He and I both got that "moving west" silliness out of our systems years ago.
:lol:

 

[rfarren]

Icelantic's been taking his lumps lately, but I understand where he's coming from on certain topics. He and I both got that "moving west" silliness out of our systems years ago.
:lol:

Icelantic lives in New Hampshire with easy access to some of the best mountains in the east. He also has enough time to take advantage of good snow conditions in a moments notice. It seems his location makes its worthwhile for him to stay on the east coast. If he moved to Utah he would have to be in SLC or Ogden and have to fight with everyone for powder on a powder day. As it stands now, he can pick from a variety of areas based on whatever criteria he wants to choose from. I'm sure on average his ski experience for a winter is up to par with what many of the so called "utards" get, especially considering the amount of back-country he hits up.

In addition, the best powder day I ever had was at Bolton Valley, in large part because there was no competition for the powder. I will say that the terrain at Alta is probably more my cup of tea, but in light of the fact that I stayed in bounds up to the very end of the day and never cross another skiers path, it was far superior than skiing chopped up - crud snow in open bowls by 12:30.

One must remember that many places in the east coast get as much snow as Aspen, Copper, and some of the other resorts out west. If you can ski the trees, you can find great powder. It is rare to have "alpine" terrain (above the tree-line), but you can find plenty of challenging tough terrain in the trees.

 

[Tony Crocker]

if making lots of trips to undersized joints helps me ski as well as him

Patrick started very young, I think his Dad was a ski instructor, and he was the Canadian equivalent of a U.S. Division 1 racer in college. Very few of us amateurs can keep up with someone like that.

He's at the undersized joints much of the time because he has family obligations and can't run off like icelantic to wherever it's snowing on the drop of a hat. I agree that the molehill skiing can be viewed as "going to the gym." It is effective training for a lot of Midwesterners.

Why is Patrick delusional?

Not at all for where he skis and getting the most out of it. But arguing that some eastern ski area is "apples and oranges" vs. LCC or Mammoth, yes I think so. I wouldn't make that argument for Mt. Baldy despite my own experiences there.

 

[Admin]

But arguing that some eastern ski area is "apples and oranges" vs. LCC or Mammoth, yes I think so. I wouldn't make that argument for Mt. Baldy despite my own experiences there.

That's where we part company. I may have been here for 4 years now, but I still think that it's all good, it's all skiing...albeit different. I do prefer my life now than before, but that doesn't change the underlying principle.

 

[Harvey]

James...what a cool way to add something new to the constant drone of the East/West food fight.

Partly it's Darwin...the people who hated what they had, died out.

I can't remember what it was... but somewhere up there I think TONY said something nice about the east.

That alone puts this thread in the running for thread of the year.

For me...I don't think you could do better than living in Burlington with a flexible schedule.

Like maybe Jspin, but even better, if possible.

 

[Patrick]

Thus my critique of depending on public transport.

:dead horse:

:snowball fight:

if making lots of trips to undersized joints helps me ski as well as him

Patrick started very young, I think his Dad was a ski instructor, and he was the Canadian equivalent of a U.S. Division 1 racer in college. Very few of us amateurs can keep up with someone like that.

I started very young (3 or 4), but unfortunately my dad wasn't my ski instructor. My mom was. She stopped Alpine skiing some years ago, but still get out on Mt.Royal with her cross-country skis a few days a week. She grew up less than 20 miles from Tremblant and started skiing as a young adult (although my parents meant in the Townships). I never skied with my dad. Although there isn't any scientific facts, I believe that I have my dad ski gene among other things.

Sorry, I don't know what the equivalent of a US Division 1 racer is? I was like more like a few stories (instead of steps) from the podium.

He's at the undersized joints much of the time because he has family obligations and can't run off like icelantic to wherever it's snowing on the drop of a hat. I agree that the molehill skiing can be viewed as "going to the gym." It is effective training for a lot of Midwesterners.

I've always said, I would be totally bored having to ski on the molehills on my own at the time. It's a way to get fresh air and exercise close to home, God knows I should get in better shape. Once I left the University Ski team (7 years with training 2-3 nights a week plus races every two weekends - I'm a slow learner :lol: ), I stayed away from hills with less than 2000ft vert for the next few years. Some people like the small verts, I personally thrive on place like Whiteface, Stowe, MRG, Sugarloaf and MSA.

Why is Patrick delusional?

Not at all for where he skis and getting the most out of it. But arguing that some eastern ski area is "apples and oranges" vs. LCC or Mammoth, yes I think so. I wouldn't make that argument for Mt. Baldy despite my own experiences there.[/quote]

Nature of the beast is different. As mentioned by someone (salida?), my best days in the East (and there are a few every year) are as good as my best days anywhere. I'm not going to argue that East in general is as good as West. The apples and oranges apply to the best. One of the reasons I started writing on FTO because I totally disagree with Frank praise of Laurentians small ski areas as being so amazing. There are only a handfull of Eastern ski areas that offer comparable (in the apples/oranges) satisfaction to the big guys out West.

Take that... :snowball fight:

 

[Tony Crocker]

For me...I don't think you could do better than living in Burlington with a flexible schedule.

One of the earlier debates was on how to construct a "where to live model." The project is in process...done for CA, AZ, NM, CO, UT, NV. The key parameters are:
1) Size (I'm using acreage with adjustments, mainly for steepness)
2) Snow conditions (as shown in my online conditions charts)
3) Distance factor

SoCal provides a good "smell test" for the distance factor. Little areas close by, Mammoth will still dominate, and Tahoe worth something even though it's an 8-hour haul. You easterners who argue the distance factor will be pleased to know that the relationship between local and Tahoe for SoCal made it clear that closer distance should count for more than I thought originally.

I will eventually send Patrick a bunch of acreage stats for Quebec areas to evaluate for reasonability. So it will be awhile before I move this project much farther. I still doubt that any big eastern metro areas will crack the West's top 10. But Burlington probably will due to the high value for distances of an hour or less.

 

[Patrick]

On a total non-scientific way....these are the best where I would love to live (if skiing was the only factor - well almost).

East: Waterbury VT
West: somewhere in the Kootenays, BC
South America: Bariloche, ARG
Europe: Bourg St-Maurice, FRA

I will eventually send Patrick a bunch of acreage stats for Quebec areas to evaluate for reasonability.

Which will only had to the stuff I don't have time to do. Sorry, but I need to get a clone for Christmas. :roll:

 

[Tony Crocker]

West: somewhere in the Kootenays, BC

Where he has never skied? At least Red and Fernie get occasional rain so that Patrick wouldn't get too homesick for the East.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

While my original question does lead to the "where is the best place to live?" discussion, we've had it before in other threads (last spring?)... and I'm sure Tony will do his job and move it there in short order.
:-"

To get back to the "pissing match" angle, I'll rephrase...

Why do skiers who move to their promised land (or have lived there for many years) spend so much time trying to sell it -- tirelessly, repeatedly -- to other people?

I'm trying to understand the psychology of skiers who seemingly can't sleep at night until others validate their decision. Personally, if/when I move to my mecca (the Arlberg -- and I promise you that it will happen), I'm going to shut my piehole and go about my business. I sure as hell won't go online and tell people that where I now live is so much better, and here's why.

Before you think that I'm picking on some of the obvious suspects on this board, this happens on any of the forums where people from different parts of the continent are mixed together.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Why do skiers who move to their promised land (or have lived there for many years) spend so much time trying to sell it -- tirelessly, repeatedly -- to other people?

I think that still goes back to my original answer; most people are more content if they like where they live, and will tell anyone who asks why. But there are some who want to slam the door on growth once they've got theirs. This is very obvious in SoCal beach areas for example. SLC is an interesting situation in this regard. Do many locals think traffic, ski area congestion etc. have reached the point that it should be actively slowed down? Of course, Save Our Canyons! But I don't think they represent mainstream Utah opinion.