Patrick's Streak, Ski Travel Priorities

[EMSC]

EMSC can tell us if anyone besides Copper is doing this in Colorado.

The other big player for early race lanes is Loveland. In fact they spend so much of their early snowmaking firepower that it has hampered their now long lost attempts at being first for the public. Often the race lane opens down at the Valley before the public run up at the Basin side opens.

In a good (cold) early season others will also get some space open early, but they are getting just the fringes of the big crush of teams (Vail, Eldora, Beaver Creek).

 

[Patrick]

EMSC can tell us if anyone besides Copper is doing this in Colorado.

Loveland did before, not sure now. Different terrain that what they open to the public. Avila next to MSS opens for teams prior to opening hill to public.

 

[Patrick]

Oh, just saw EMSC responded.

 

[ChrisC]

Just looking at Patrick's travel to South America over the years... he basically just needs to pick a location for the Labor Day Weekend to check off both August and September by skiing on August 31/September1.

So Patrick's summer streak dates are essentially fixed and non-negotiable, no matter what else is said. I guess some touristic activities can move the needle for a destination (bands, cities, etc.), but that's secondary.

Europe really only has 2 broad geographic choices:

• Hintertux & Stelvio (4 hours apart)
• Zermatt & Saas Fee (1 hour apart)

And I assume he can make last-minute reservations for whatever region is doing the best:

• South America (Argentina & Chile)
• New Zealand
• Australia

With fixed dates (September 1st +/-) & summer winding down in the US/Canada, one can assume that some North American airfare deals are available into August for Labor Day. You should always be able to avoid bad conditions/droughts if you have multiple geographies available globally and only need to book a few weeks out.

 

[Patrick]

says the person who has put off ANY skiing in the premier regions of the Northern Hemisphere January-March for 18 years!

Not going to touch this again, my employers 1995 to 2016 didn’t really allow me to take time off in certain time of the year. Tony might recall that my 2006 Montana to Utah trip almost didn’t happen as they was talk to have it canceled due to « operational requirements » up until my departure (Election on Jan 23).
I asked for one week off in February, this was asked 5 months earlier and again numerous times to having management refuse my request. I was even blame afterwards on pre-approved 1-2 days off during the season. And I’m not going to mentioned the pain and fight I had my leave approved when my mom died which lasted 9 months.

 

[Tony Crocker]

The above mentioned incidents were at least a decade ago and the January-March pattern continues with no end in sight.

 

[Patrick]

The above mentioned incidents were at least a decade ago and the January-March pattern continues with no end in sight.

My current job and commitment for my athletes would not be fair to say « sorry, I’ll be absent » for 1-2 weeks. I don’t think Tommy Lasorda would have left the Dodgers during the season?

If I take less responsibilities, maybe?
My job has great financial and non-financial skiing advantages (salary, passes, deals on passes and equipment).

 

[Tony Crocker]

Sorry, there's no way I'm not swinging at a softball like:

If you wait for the ideal situation, you might be missing out

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Sorry, there's no way I'm not swinging at a softball like:

If you wait for the ideal situation, you might be missing out, sometimes you have to take a risk and just go.

I was shocked that it took more than a day for Tony to step into the batting cage for that one!

 

[ChrisC]

If you wait for the ideal situation, you might be missing out, sometimes you have to take a risk and just go.

This statement is a bit of nonsense and gaslighting.

Life is a bunch of trade-offs; I'm just trying to optimize them: work, travel, life, etc.


Seize the Day when the ideal situation arises:

In September 2023, I definitely seized the day and went to Portillo after 10+ feet of snow and reunited with my heli buddies (Josh, brother) for a long weekend (4-5 days).​

​

I overspent a bit on airfare, but due to mid-to-late September (end-of-season) pricing, we were able to book an all-inclusive package (lift tickets/chalet lodging/4 meals including on-mountain/wine/pool/hot tub/gym) for $300 per day. Normally only the ski teams get the cabins on the lake, but the teams had left a few days before. (This is an especially good deal because there are only 400 beds at Portillo, and the resort controls them by keeping prices high/minimum night stays. Driving up from Los Andes is difficult with trucks going 10mph and hairpin turns.) This was a Top 10 Experience.​

​

Even today, with oil shocks and wars, airfares are still $800 for 3 weeks out and $1100 for last minute from SFO (or anywhere in the USA) to Santiago.​

​

I still say wait! Don't be trigger-happy and book a subpar experience. There is nowhere in the Southern Hemisphere to spend a week or $1k now; still no snow - yet.​

Trade-off: Skiing 12 months per Year, often in sub-optimal conditions

Patrick decided to ski every month of the calendar year. While an amazing personal goal/streak, often conditions are not optimal. There is no seize the day. It's looking for the lesser of evils in off-seasons…..which is the less-worst option? European melted-off glaciers, rocks in NZ, rain in the Andes, snowmaking remnants, etc. Choose your poison.​

​

Skiwild also skis year-round on a streak.​

​

This requires meticulous planning. And often, why not lock in good pricing (damn the conditions), since you are still going to pay for potentially poor skiing next month, the summer after, the autumn after. Never-ending.​

​

And why not add other things to the schedule: family time in Europe or Midnight Oil concerts in Australia. (Hell, I would go see INXS if possible... )​

​

​

Yes, Patrick's Streak is impressive, especially for living on the East Coast. But in terms of time, resources, and sacrifice of better ski conditions/experiences, it blows my mind.

I would commit maybe 1.5 days to it during the summer and fall months if I lived in Seattle. From Seattle, year-round skiing is an easy day trip, or a 1.5-day car camp / overnight snow camp. You can mix up the locations (RED X's on map):

• Mt. Rainier - Paradise. Easiest, almost always available. Muir is a snowfield, little crevasse worry.
• Mt. Rainier - Emmons. North side. Closest, but longer hike. Killer crevasses.
• Hurricane Ridge/Olympics. Ferry ride to peninsula. Ridge is easy, but Mt Olympus is a schlep.
• Glacier Peak. Hard-to-access. More like 2.5 days for skiing/snow.
• Mt. Adams. Relatively easy access but longer drive.
• Mt. Baker. More like 2 days - not bad.

But I would only spend a tank of gas, $ for an overnight permit, and 24-36 hours of my time to maintain a year-round streak (<$100/month). Again, Crystal, Hood, Timberline, and Whistler can get you from almost November to July/August.

​

​

​

​

 

[EMSC]

Time for me to pick up the softball:

My current job and commitment for my athletes would not be fair to say « sorry, I’ll be absent » for 1-2 weeks. I don’t think Tommy Lasorda would have left the Dodgers during the season?

I get being committed, but surely you are kidding.

How many of the athletes you are coaching are in the top 15 of the World Cup results?

Have you never seen that athletes can actually improve their understanding of coaching and being coached by having more than one perspective for a few minutes? I've watched MANY of 'greatest coach ever' (as viewed by the athletes and parents in the moment) get replaced the very next season by coaches who it turns out were even better at getting the kids to their desired results.

Thus, I can't believe that you personally are the only coach who is even remotely competent at your club and completely irreplaceable at all times and in all circumstances. Ultimately everyone is replaceable. A week off might actually make them listen to you MORE.

 

[Sbooker]

Hell, I would go see INXS if possible

Sorry for going wildly off topic but INXS is not INXS without Michael Hutchence.

Mt. Rainier - Paradise. Easiest, almost always available. Muir is a snowfield, little crevasse worry.

It's possible to ski on actual snow on Mt Rainier in September?

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Have you never seen that athletes can actually improve their understanding of coaching and being coached by having! more than one perspective for a few minutes? I've watched MANY of 'greatest coach ever' (as viewed by the athletes and parents in the moment) get replaced the very next season by coaches who it turns out were even better at getting the kids to their desired results.

Thus, I can't believe that you personally are the only coach who is even remotely competent at your club and completely irreplaceable at all times and in all circumstances. Ultimately everyone is replaceable. A week off might actually make them listen to you MORE.

Don't pull any punches -- tell us how you really feel!

 

[ChrisC]

Sorry for going wildly off topic but INXS is not INXS without Michael Hutchence.

No, it's not!

....hence it's not possible to see INXS

It's possible to ski on actual snow on Mt Rainier in September?

Oh yeah! It's the most heavily glaciated mountain in the Lower 48 USA. A glacier on every aspect.

Mount Rainier Glaciers - Mount Rainier National Park (U.S. National Park Service)

www.nps.gov

Muir Snowfield Ski Tour

• General fee: Mount Rainier National Park charges a fee to enter. The fee varies depending on the vehicle used to enter the park (car, motorcycle, bike, on foot, or on horseback). For more information, please visithttps://www.nps.gov/mora/planyourvisit/fees.htm • Seasonal road closure: Roads...

www.alltrails.com

Regarding the feasibility of September skiing on Mt. Rainier: it's a 4,500-foot hike—roughly 4.5 hours—from the 5,400-foot mark at Paradise to Camp Muir. The top 2,500 vertical feet remains skiable year-round as a snowfield (rather than a glacier), and the full 4,500-foot route is skiable till early summer. It’s a very popular route, with something like 70–75% of summit climbers ascending Mt. Rainier via this path. Pretty straightforward.

 

[Sbooker]

No, it's not!

....hence it's not possible to see INXS



Oh yeah! It's the most heavily glaciated mountain in the Lower 48 USA. A glacier on every aspect.

Mount Rainier Glaciers - Mount Rainier National Park (U.S. National Park Service)

www.nps.gov

View attachment 52357

Muir Snowfield Ski Tour

• General fee: Mount Rainier National Park charges a fee to enter. The fee varies depending on the vehicle used to enter the park (car, motorcycle, bike, on foot, or on horseback). For more information, please visithttps://www.nps.gov/mora/planyourvisit/fees.htm • Seasonal road closure: Roads...

www.alltrails.com

Regarding the feasibility of September skiing on Mt. Rainier: it's a 4,500-foot hike—roughly 4.5 hours—from the 5,400-foot mark at Paradise to Camp Muir. The top 2,500 vertical feet remains skiable year-round as a snowfield (rather than a glacier), and the full 4,500-foot route is skiable till early summer. It’s a very popular route, with something like 70–75% of summit climbers ascending Mt. Rainier via this path. Pretty straightforward.

View attachment 52358

Thanks. Or not. Another trip to do. My bucket has time limitations.

 

[Tony Crocker]

The top 2,500 vertical feet remains skiable year-round as a snowfield (rather than a glacier)

In what conditions? Is there enough traffic to prevent huge suncups and big irregularities from forming?

a 4,500-foot hike—roughly 4.5 hours

For you, maybe. Even when I was 30 it took me 7 hours to hike with skis on my back from the 7,700 foot Poopout Hill trailhead to San Gorgonio (11,500) or Jepson Peak (11,200).

But big picture ChrisC's view is correct. The PNW is the ideal place to live for monthly ski streaks. The very biggest years are doable in the Sierra. I skied 11 consecutive months at Mammoth in 2004-05 (#12 was at Las Lenas) and 12 consecutive in 2010-11. Some people in Colorado must do this with so many 12,000 foot passes plus two drive-up fourteeners.

 

[Patrick]

How many of the athletes you are coaching are in the top 15 of the World Cup results?

Well, I didn't coach her personal, but someone from our club had 2 top 20 and one 26th in WC GS. Her first WC race was two year after I started coaching.Have you never seen that athletes can actually improve their understanding of coaching and being coached by having more than one perspective for a few minutes? I've watched MANY of 'greatest coach ever' (as viewed by the athletes and parents in the moment) get replaced the very next season by coaches who it turns out were even better at getting the kids to their desired results.

Thus, I can't believe that you personally are the only coach who is even remotely competent at your club and completely irreplaceable at all times and in all circumstances.

In depends of the years, but some years I've been the only coach for my age group. In a question of timing also; I'm often one of the rare coaches available for various optional training or camps.

I like how everyone care about me missing out, but no worries; I've had a number of great days in my ski life and getting paid for doing something I love.

 

[ChrisC]

In what conditions? Is there enough traffic to prevent huge suncups and big irregularities from forming?

I am the wrong person to ask about very late-summer skiing. I didn't engage.

Early/mid-summer is mostly clean, with no large suncups, openings or irregularities. Of course, surfaces are not uniform, but one can wait until the sun softens surfaces, and with fat skis it's quite fun.

The safe/prime NW glacier-climbing season (Cascades, Olympics) ends in August. By September, you get down to the actual ice, which makes everything more difficult (holes, crevasses, ice/rockfalls), the weather deteriorates, daylight hours decrease, etc. Guided groups mostly disappear by then. Why bother with it when you missed the window? Therefore, all the supporting 'training' hikes wind down before this (St. Helens, Adams, Snoqualmie area, etc). And why bring skis when you cannot ski 100% of the descent? Just extra weight, when you can glissade thousands of vertical feet.

In short, everything is a bit miserable by September; doable but not desirable. Especially compared to August, July, and earlier, when you are previously skiing 3-5k vertical descents. Unless you are trying to ski year-round/every month, why bother with September (or October)?

Basically, I gravitated toward lift-served skiing by late summer which is Timberline for August and September (now?). In June/July, one could often ski Crystal Mountain or Whistler.

Final note: While the Muir Snow Field does deteriote, it's still better than indoor skiing, snowmaking glaciers, random rumps of snow, and - likely- New Zealand(?) or Australian skiing in poor snow years.


Here's a blog describing September conditions - with an interesting take on suncups:

Muir Snowfield – September Skiing on Washington’s Highest Volcano

I’ve skied practically every month of the year, with plenty of help from Oregon’s Palmer Glacier and the October opening days at Copper Mountain, Colorado. With that said, September has…

noahzadventures.com

Despite enormous sun cups, the descent proved to be a real joy. I found rhythm between the sun cups, which acted as inverted moguls. It was possible to hop out of one depression and into another, something I did often.

According to Ben, the large size of the melted out cups led to a better ski surface. On his last trip a few weeks prior, the sun cups were too small to make turns through and were therefore tiresome. We still took a number of breaks as the elevation and tiring ascent sapped our legs of their energy.

After down climbing the rocky section, we enjoyed some turns on the best snow yet–nearly perfect September corn. We carved huge arcs, passing groups of amused climbers.

For you, maybe. Even when I was 30 it took me 7 hours to hike with skis on my back from the 7,700 foot Poopout Hill trailhead to San Gorgonio (11,500) or Jepson Peak (11,200).

A generic, mountaineering goal should be 1000 vertical feet per hour with a mid-light pack on maintained trails. Does not really include breaks. Also, this does not really include horizontal - add 1 hour for every 2-3 miles of forward hiking.

My understanding is San Gorgonio is rough, remote and higher, so maybe 75% of this pace.

Mt. Rainier's midpoint of Camp Muir is high, but not too high. And very well-traveled. Maybe a little less.

 

[Tony Crocker]

A generic, mountaineering goal should be 1000 vertical feet per hour with a mid-light pack on maintained trails.

That sounds reasonable. That was close to the pace for Tuckerman Ravine, where altitude is not much of a factor even though my pack was 38 pounds. Some of the locals were really hauling ass up that trail with stripped down aluminum frame packs holding their boots and skis.

this does not really include horizontal - add 1 hour for every 2-3 miles of forward hiking.

Poopout Hill trailhead to San Gorgonio is 7.7 miles one way, makes me feel better. That was the absolute maximum of my endurance in those days (1980-1983). I'd still say Shasta in 2011 was tougher, 9,000 to 13,200, over half of that with crampons, ice axe and skis on the pack, the lower part with skins and ski crampons. That took me 8 hours.

 

[ChrisC]

I took a Glacier Climbing class offered at Bellevue Community College in the evenings and on weekends; it was a great investment to knock off the Cascade volcanoes, find a solid backcountry skiing/climbing/hiking community, and gain a general background in the Coastal Mountains and snow conditions.

Frankly, some of the biggest hazards out there are young East Coast males who have recently arrived in CO/UT/WA/CA without the knowledge—or the ability—to admit to gaps in their experience.

When planning, I still fall back on the standard baseline below—whether I'm in the Adirondacks, the Caribbean/Hawaiian volcanoes, the Andes, or the Alps. But as a major caveat: once you get above 10k feet, it throws everything off.