Patrick's Streak, Ski Travel Priorities

[ChrisC]

So obviously we will be here today and Patrick and I will drive to Mammoth tomorrow. I will just ski Tuesday while he will continue on to Tahoe, where he will get to ski Alpine Meadows and KT-22 for the first time

Guess it is time to put that IKON Pass to use! Although both Mammoth and Palisades will have lift tickets around $80-100 for multi-days over Memorial Day Weekend. Just hope thunderstorms do not ruin it all. And lots are forecasted.

Too bad The Fingers at KT22 are closed now.....when they have skied like a filled-in Corbett's for most of the year.

I'd rather ski places in their prime - and cover specific lines I've researched/focused on. Why bother skiing a place if good/great stuff is not open? My exception to that rule this year was Monterosa - but they had all pistes open and the Idren Tram was running.


For example, it took me 20 years to get to Southern California for this reason - until snowfall totals were equivalent to the Rockies. Also, I basically ski Telluride only at the end of February or April closing weekend for max coverage, terrain open, snow stability, family availability, etc. Like to book an airport in Europe to fly to and decide on the Eastern, Western, or Southern Alps. British Columbia skis the best in mid-January to early March.

But I have no desire for streaks, records, etc. It just ruins quality skiing. I'd rather have 12-20 great ski days dictated by weather, open terrain, and conditions. Like new areas, but they need to have typically 1000-1500 or offer some other compelling reason (history, snowfall, runs, etc).

 

[EMSC]

But those other places have not involved sleeping near sea level and skiing above 8,000 feet.

I thought Patrick just finished a bunch of time skiing in Western Canada (eg LL and Sunshine most recently)? I would think altitude conditioning should have lasted a bit better after that much time at altitude? Or was he tourist-ing around the lowlands for a while too?

The ridiculous thing being how much steeps are still open there vs ABasin which has overall better snow coverage. Probably one of the worst aspects of continental snowpacks out here.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I would think altitude conditioning should have lasted a bit better after that much time at altitude?

Some mountaineers think altitude conditioning wears off in just a day or two. I do not agree. I recall the first time I skied with Patrick in Montana/Wyoming in 2006 I flew home and went to Mammoth 4 days later and felt an unusually high energy level. Adam made similar comments while at UCSD when he was skiing Mammoth every weekend for 3+ months.

However, Patrick was home almost 3 weeks between these trips. And in western Canada you're generally sleeping at 3,000-4,000 feet and only at the top of a few hills skiing higher than 7,000. I was not that aware of Patrick's altitude sensitivity, though in retrospect there was some when he arrived in Mammoth in 2019. When I met him in Portillo in 2007 he had already been skiing in Chile for a week.

This year with age, I notice Mammoth and Snowbird at 10,000 feet and have more trouble skiing nonstop in demanding terrain/conditions. This seems to be less of an issue at 8,000 so far.

But I have no desire for streaks, records, etc. It just ruins quality skiing. I'd rather have 12-20 great ski days dictated by weather, open terrain, and conditions. Like new areas, but they need to have typically 1000-1500 or offer some other compelling reason (history, snowfall, runs, etc).

James and I have expressed similar sentiments many times over the past 15 years. I keep more records than most skiers, seek out new areas as a fairly high priority and have arranged 3 times to ski at least 12 consecutive months. Twice I could get tough months by doing AT at Mammoth, but for Liz' 12 months last season there was a dedicated trip to Timberline for June/July and a bit of creativity required in Norway for August/September when we found that the normally open summer ski areas had a lean winter and had closed early.

As far as ski area count is concerned I'd encourage ChrisC to update his list from 2006. He was at 152 then when I was at 121. I'm probably more obsessive about adding new areas but have similar standards of say 1,000 vertical and expecting a few hours of interesting skiing. Lonnie on his road trips the past two seasons skied 7 areas so obscure that neither former admin, James or I had included them on the intended-to-be-comprehensive Google Earth file for North America.

As for streaks/records ruining quality skiing, I personally don't find that an either/or proposition. But if circumstances force me to choose, I vote for quality. My lowered maximum heart rate with age gives me a choice. Ski easier runs/more groomers to maintain vertical of historical standards, or continue skiing challenging terrain/conditions with less vertical. So far I have opted for the latter.

As for Patrick, his streak started in October 2005, and from March 2008 - March 2023 he never skied outside the East between Dec. 11 and April 21, a remarkable stat that leaves no doubt about his top priority. I'm pleased that the April 21 date got rolled back to March 31 with the western Canada trip this year. Even there I agree with ChrisC:

British Columbia skis the best in mid-January to early March.

But we should applaud even baby steps in Patrick improving his quality of skiing.

 

[flyover]

Some mountaineers think altitude conditioning wears off in just a day or two. I do not agree.

I'm subjected to monthly CBC labs. Over the years I've noticed that when it has been less than 6 or so days since return from a western ski trip, my hemoglobin has been noticeably above baseline. When it has been more than that, it is been within my usual range for baseline.

 

[EMSC]

when it has been less than 6 or so days since return from a western ski trip, my hemoglobin has been noticeably above baseline.

This is right in line with what I was thinking. At least a solid week after heading to lower altitude before I start to settle into that local altitude.

Patrick was home almost 3 weeks between these trips.

Which I didn't realize, I thought it was quick succession (a few days).

 

[ChrisC]

As far as ski area count is concerned I'd encourage ChrisC to update his list from 2006. He was at 152 then when I was at 121. I'm probably more obsessive about adding new areas but have similar standards of say 1,000 vertical and expecting a few hours of interesting skiing.

I should do this. Would need a list of areas in order to trigger memories/check them off.

Need to see how you counted European ski areas. Often the term 'resort' refers to the village/lodging area than the ski mountain. Like Whistler Blackcomb in European resort count would be Whistler Creekside, Whistler Village, and Blackcomb Village. But 1 or 2 ski areas? Think 2 is more accurate.

And then you have places like Diavolezza/Lagalb, Verbier/4Vallees, Grand Massif, Portes du Soliel, Arlberg, Andermatt, etc.

 

[ChrisC]

This is right in line with what I was thinking. At least a solid week after heading to lower altitude before I start to settle into that local altitude.


Which I didn't realize, I thought it was quick succession (a few days).

I am not really impacted too much by altitude until it starts topping 10k and you are hiking - especially around 12k for the first 2 days before some acclimatization. The steepness of the hike can also be impactful.

For example, Revelation Bowl 12, 570' to Gold Hill 12,900' is a gradual stroll. Yes, it can take a while to get all the way out to the Gold Hill stairs for GH Chutes 9 and 10 (30 min), but not all that taxing. For me, this is the best effort-to-reward hiking on the mountain. European style couloirs opening to big unskied aprons and bowls in Palmyra Basin. I am very happy to lap this on nice days taking in the views.

On the other hand, Bald Mountain is a to steep little 20-minute 300-400' hike to 11,880' that I like to avoid on the first day unless there is new snow. Jackpot and Wilcat are the best unless wind-scoured.

Palmyra Peak is a different beast at 13,150 about 2 hours from the summit of the Prospect Lift at 11, 800'. The biggest issue is that it takes over/destroys the ski day - it's one and done. Also, there are really only two runs/chutes from the Palmyra: Roy Boy and Seniors. I always take Roy Boy (skiers left) right below the summit since its entrance is hidden and the more accessible/visible Seniors can sport bumps a day or two after the last snowfall on a nice Spring Day. I only do this hike every couple of years as a special occasion event.

The other entry points on the Palmyra Ridge are much better at 5-25 minutes: Black Iron, Dihedal Chute, Lakeview/WestLake and La Rosa are my favorites. Not a bad effort-to-reward ratio especially since this gets tons of blow-in snow/wind-loading and can be 2x reported snowfall.

Finally, the best effort-to-reward ratio is Bear Creek sidecountry. A 20 minute hike to Gold Hill summit 12,900 and you have a 4,150' vertical run to the town of Telluride at 8,750'. These routes encompass bowls, watergferfalls, chutes and rapels.

Silverton hikes are quite substantial - especially once you get past Mandatory Air to Nightmare and Tiger Claw. Definitely need some acclimization. More recently, we have been doing a half day of guiding and a half day of 2/3 heli runs - located on the south side basin or the eastern side (which will now be lift served for next year 23/24).

Aspen's Highland Bowl is a tough hike to do immediately. I have found A-Basin's North Pole Chutes/First&Second Notch hikes to be OK. Same with Loveland's ridges. Tucker Mountain used to be a slog since the cat did not really accomplish much.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Would need a list of areas in order to trigger memories/check them off.

That's why I put the link from the 2006 thread to ChrisC's post specifically.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Need to see how you counted European ski areas. Often the term 'resort' refers to the village/lodging area than the ski mountain. Like Whistler Blackcomb in European resort count would be Whistler Creekside, Whistler Village, and Blackcomb Village. But 1 or 2 ski areas? Think 2 is more accurate.

And then you have places like Diavolezza/Lagalb, Verbier/4Vallees, Grand Massif, Portes du Soliel, Arlberg, Andermatt, etc.

The last discussion of this topic was here. As this is not a judged competition, we each make our own rules.

Arguments for separate areas:
1) Large with well defined geographic boundary (e.g. Whistler/Blackcomb, Klein Matterhorn/rest of Zermatt)
2) Areas linked by a transport lift but not by ski runs (e.g. Lech/Warth, Les Arcs/La Plagne)
3) Discounted/cheaper lift ticket available for part but not all of the complex (e.g. 4 such parts in Portes du Soleil)
4) Historically separate areas that merged (e.g. Big Sky/Moonlight, Sugarbush/Glen Ellen, Snow Summit/Bear Mt.)

Chris' examples above?
I have Whistler/Blackcomb as 2
I have Diavolezza/Lagalb as 1
I have Verbier as 1, Nendaz/Veysonnaz as a second. Obvious boundary at Tortin.
I have Portes du Soleil as 4 as defined by lift tickets: Morzine/Les Gets, Avoriaz, Chatel, the Swiss side.
I have the Arlberg as 4: St. Anton, Lech/Zurs, Stuben and Warth-Schrocken. All but Stuben have transport lift only boundaries but Rauz is the obvious boundary with St. Anton. You could argue Rendl as a 5th, but that's sort of like Orelle in Trois Vallees: No one seems to think that way in practice.
I have Andermatt Gemsstock as 1 and the string of lifts and runs between Andermatt and Sedrun as a second. Since than I think Disentis (which I have not skied) has a lift connection, but Disentis wouild still be a third area IMHO.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

We've collectively forgotten about our ski-area-count thread -- no posts in three years! I just updated my list.

Would need a list of areas in order to trigger memories/check them off.

I'd recommend using skiresort.info. For each country, scroll down a bit and click on the "map view" icon:

Mouse over each pin and it'll identify the ski area (358 for Switzerland alone -- even the tiniest places are included). Helpful if you know that you skied in a given region but are blanking about specifics:

 

[snowave]

We've collectively forgotten about our ski-area-count thread -- no posts in three years! I just updated my list.


I'd recommend using skiresort.info. For each country, scroll down a bit and click on the "map view" icon:
View attachment 35835

I was looking at that list you compiled and saw Jackson Hole and Snowking for WY, but not Targhee... then I found you had it listed under Idaho.

btw, curious why you only have 1 Italian resort? I saw TonyC mentioned it as well, but I didn't see you ever answer him. Maybe you discussed it further elsewhere, and I just missed it.l

I'm mainly curious because my family (and also a friend) are urging me to get dual citizenship (since I qualify for citizenship by descent ) and at some point I may travel over that way, and who knows down the road. I've spent a little bit of time looking at some of the Italian Alps resorts, and seems like many (esp the Dolomites) are not favorable for much snow. It's nice to know there are many other options and traveling is now easier over there in the EU more than ever, or so I hear (never been to Europe).

 

[jamesdeluxe]

curious why you only have 1 Italian resort? I saw TonyC mentioned it as well, but I didn't see you ever answer him.

I grew up in an Italian-American household in Central New York (my grandparents and extended family from that generation spoke a goofy Calabrese/American dialect amongst themselves) so naturally, I later rebelled against my upbringing and learned French and German! I can read signs in Italian but can only verbalize very rudimentary things.

That's basically why I tend to ski in France/Switzerland/Austria rather than Italy -- I know how much I'm missing when being dependent on locals to speak my language. After I stop working, I plan to rectify that shortcoming and learn enough Italian to help navigate visits to ski areas there.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I have also mentioned to James many times that French is spoken routinely in Aosta and German is the local language in most of the Dolomites that were in Austria-Hungary before WWI. Signage, trail markers etc. are often in German in the Dolomites and sometimes in French in Aosta.

 

[ChrisC]

I speak to the Italians in Spanish. It somewhat works. It's the only country I can semi-communicate in.

Basically, I cannot even pronounce most French or German names remotely correctly, so most of the time I just get blank stares and am at the mercy of the younger generation for some English. Or small country Europe - Dutch, Norwegians, Swedes, Tinns, Czechs, etc. - who need to know English or else they are relegated to communicating with only 10 million countrymen.

Upstate NY - there are A LOT of Czechs, Poles, Slovaks, Ukrainians, Germans, etc. Basically, any group dominated by the Astro-Hungarian, Russian or German Empires got the hell out before/after World War 1. Lots of my family would bury their money in fields behind their homes. The accordion was very popular at family reunions. And the Italians help bring about 'The Spiedie'!

Spiedies are traditionally made with chicken, pork, or lamb cubes or chunks. Spiedies were started in Binghamton, NY (home to Johnson State College) back in the 1930s at a restaurant named “Mario’s.” They served these yummy morsels as a 10-cent snack, along with a slice of bread. Talk about a great deal at 5 to a pound for only half a dollar! The “spiedie” comes from the Italian word spiedo, meaning “skewer.” If you grew up anywhere near Binghamton, Buffalo, or Syracuse, NY, you probably had spiedies. I bet that if you are from upstate New York that no matter where you live now, you either grew up on spiedies or still enjoy them. Spiedies are one of the most popular regional delicacies in the Northeast US. This popularity can be attributed to immigrants who brought their love for flavor-infused meat cubes with them when they settled here, creating this tasty treat that you’ll only find around these parts!​

 

[Tony Crocker]

Aspen's Highland Bowl is a tough hike to do immediately.

I've been fortunate to have done it 3x, all after sleeping in Colorado resorts for a full week. But:

it takes over/destroys the ski day - it's one and done.

That's what Highlands Bowl is for me.

Finally, the best effort-to-reward ratio is Bear Creek sidecountry.

I have no doubt this is true. I should have thought of this in 2004 when I arrived at a NASJA meeting in late March after 3 weeks of warm weather. I did know about it late March 2019 but there had been a two foot dump the previous week and there was high avalanche risk.

Proactive management would handle Bear Creek like Aspen Ski Corp has Highlands Bowl. They pay ski bums to bootpack it in November to break up the weak layer, awarding one free ski day for every bootpack day. I'm sure patrol has intense control work in Highlands Bowl throughout the season too.

 

[ChrisC]

Proactive management would handle Bear Creek like Aspen Ski Corp has Highlands Bowl. They pay ski bums to bootpack it in November to break up the weak layer, awarding one free ski day for every bootpack day. I'm sure patrol has intense control work there throughout the season too.

Bear Creek lies outside of Telluride's official resort boundaries and presently does very little control work there.

The real visionary of Telluride (besides the founders - Alred) is Dave Riley who came to the mountain from Mt. Hood Meadows. He added all of the fabled hike-to-expert terrain (Mountain Quail, Palmyra Peak, Gold Hille Chutes 1-10) and improved access to the side-country (Bear Creek) with the Revelation Bowl lift.

At one point Telluride was running a pilot guide office for Bear Creek and Alta Lakes tours - like Europe. Article HERE.

Backcountry skiers now have the opportunity to take tours from Telluride Ski Resort guides through the nearby Bear Creek and Alta Lakes areas, but not everybody is thrilled about the idea. Costing several hundred dollars each, the resort began offering the trips March 23—but only to expert skiers and snowboarders. Telluride CEO Dave Riley tells The Denver Post the one-year pilot program, recently approved by the U.S. Forest Service, puts Telluride on the same level as Jackson Hole, Wyoming, or Chamonix, France, both fabled resorts with guided tours of world-class backcountry skiing. Telluride’s top-notch guides have studied the sometimes-perilous backcountry areas of the Bear Creek drainage, which can be treacherous for people who don’t know the area and are mesmerized by the powder and gorgeous setting.​

​

And to show the ideas we bought to Telluride: Article HERE.

SNEWS: When you took the Telluride job, what were your big goals for what you thought you could accomplish at the ski area?​

​

DR: I knew a fair amount about Telluride to begin with, and I knew I was walking into the coolest resort in the country. I would say that even if I wasn’t working here. What I didn’t know was that a lot of terrain in the permit area wasn’t open. It took literally about five minutes to think about that before I concluded that I needed to get that open, because it would differentiate Telluride from any other resort on this planet. I call it adventure terrain, not hike-to, or extreme. You can hike five minutes or 1.5 hours, depending on what you want to do. And it’s like going into the backcountry, but it is managed by ski patrol. They have a presence, the avalanche danger has been mitigated, and if you want to have that adventure, but don’t want to risk your lives by going into the backcountry, then Telluride offers that.​

Anyways, as noted in the latter article, Bear Creek will need to be more effectively managed. There is currently a decent amount of local backcountry ski touring coming back and forth from Ophir - primarily Ophir to Telluride. Lots of hardy souls in that ex-abandoned mining town.

Perhaps the ultimate line in Telluride's Bear Creek side-country is the San Joaquin Couloir - a 2-hour skin from the Delta Bowl of Upper Bear Creek. I did this once when I had more Ski instructor friends more than 10+ years ago. It looks insane from afar, but is doable with focus and stable conditions in Spring. Don't have my pics due to pre-smart phone days and not a place for camers. Compares to the best of the Alps. Another recent write-up from Unoffical Networks - Article HERE.

Part of the reason I enjoy skiing in Europe so much, is it resembles Telluride/Silverton - on of course a much larger and historical scale.

 

[Tony Crocker]

San Joaquin Couloir captures your eye from upper parts of Telluride. Looking at it straight on from a distance there is no sense of steepness or scale. ChrisC's second pic is very helpful in that regard. Telluride is one of those places where you really need a lot of local knowledge and/or connections to get the most out of it. And more lung capacity that I have at age 70, though I could probably handle Bear Creek guided OK.

 

[ChrisC]

Bear Creek upper bowls - Nellies - from my visit last Feb/March with 6” new - about the max you want to not worry too much avalanches/stability. San Joaquin Couloir on shaded mountain in far right background.

A local photographer did a great guide to Telluride’’s side country / hiking terrain that one can buy locally. Brett Schreckengost. His gallery: https://brettschreckengost.com/

He also created a site that he created with the maps, but it used Flash and browsers no longer load the maps. Should post my images.

Bear Creek map example:

Some interesting notes about Bear Creek avalanche fatalities:

Bear Creek is a sprawling, steep, chute-choked drainage; it’s some of the best lift-accessed backcountry in the country. It’s also some of the most technical and treacherous—according to a 2012 San Miguel County report, more skier deaths have occurred in Bear Creek than at any other location in the county, and all avalanche-related deaths were caused by extreme trauma, not suffocation. Access has been fraught for a long time.

Will need to do a post with info that has disappeared from the Internet.

 

[Patrick]

Oh man, how can anyone like these trips to ski streaks? I love skiing and I’ve always love to extend my season whenever I can.

First time I skied Mammoth was in June 2005, even before the ski streak started.

I’m skiing in May at Mammoth for 2 years in a row (especially last year). Last year I skied at Killington in June (like I did in 8 different seasons) or Sugarbush in May before this trip.

Without going into details again, I had a job for over 20 years where it was almost impossible to travel in Winter. The exception was the Montana to Utah trip in 2006 were it came very close to being canceled.

I’m extremely happy with my ski life, I wouldn’t really change anything from it. I get paid to ski and my ski income is generally sufficient to covers all my ski expenses.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I get paid to ski

at Ottawa molehills from Christmas through the end of March. It's delusional to say that has no impact upon the quality of skiing when you can only travel outside that time frame. Most people are constrained by their jobs in how much time can be spent on ski travel to high quality destinations, though the nature of Patrick's constraint is a bit ironic.