St. Moritz Trip Starts with Class 3+ Avalanche

[EMSC]

Makes sense but not easy to execute.

In the literature about avalanche safety there are definitely warnings about avoiding groupthink or being overly deferential to the local expert.

Very difficult for most people most of the time. Usually also requires your own knowledge from avi training or similar to even know when to say something. "Hey isn't that pitch well over 30 degrees on a high risk/level 4 day?" Not many clients would even know to question something specific like that.

For me personally, In my mind level 1 and 2 is fairly easy, not big avi danger though pay attention usually to minor issues as highlighted by local forecasters; level 4 and 5 are easy - danger is kinda off the charts so stay mellow or not even skiing that stuff at all. Level 3 is the real hard one and of course most of Colorado spends most of the winter at level 3 (though currently level 2 here given very low new snow totals the past couple of weeks).

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Corvatsch is an excellent cruising mountain and we were able to get plenty of fresh snow in safer off piste areas.

You can post non-avalanche photos -- we'll have opinions on those too!

Did you do the valley run into town? I loved all of Corvatsch but that part of it (scroll down in my report) felt especially unique, partially because there's zero snowmaking all the way to the bottom, which is very rare.

 

[ChrisC]

I had skied Tour de Charvet in 2018 before doing it with James and was absolutely surprised that the ESF guide was going there so early in the morning with likely frozen conditions, but I did not question it when I surely should have.

I have developed some knowledge of certain Alps resorts where I am comfortable with the risk, navigation, and timing of certain freeride areas: Val d'Isere/Tignes, Verbier, Courmayeur, and Andermatt. Obviously, I am not 100%, but I have 'goto' areas.


By the way, this is how the Tour du Charvet skied yesterday in Val d'Isere - similar to how I first skied it with my brother in 2018. I was surprised when our guide just dropped off the backside of the Grand Pre lift....

4.7K views | 📍Tour du Charvet | 29.01.2025 End of January delivering the goods! ❄️ Perfect snow, epic turns and the best off-piste terrain - this is what skiing with TDC is all about. Ready to find the best lines with expert coaching? Book your o

📍Tour du Charvet | 29.01.2025 End of January delivering the goods! ❄️ Perfect snow, epic turns and the best off-piste terrain - this is what skiing with TDC is all about. Ready to find the best...

www.facebook.com

 

[ChrisC]

Did you do the valley run into town? I loved all of Corvatsch but that part of it (at the bottom of my report) felt especially unique.

The open terrain has not changed much at Corvatsch and Diavolezza. Like at Christmas at Snowbird, they are waiting for snow to settle/control work.

 

[ChrisC]

I take a level of responsibility for the group being it was all of their first times and my spidey senses should have gone off a bit knowing it was a level 4 day. But ultimately as has been said, I am not the professional, I am not from here, there was no reasonable scenario where I was going to not follow him.

Sometimes, knowing where you are going with a guide is impossible.

I generally try to purchase Freeride guidebooks before going out with a guide and will request specific itineraries - whether in a public or private group. I am always interested in why they may not recommend something, too. What is safe, where there has been wind, what is skied out, what is sun affected, etc.....

I let the guide decide in the end, but he/she understands the type of terrain I want to ski. The only thing I give a HARD NO to in the Alps are Trees! No Larch Forests unless it's storm skiing/dumping. I tell them we have too many trees in North America; I'm here for the alpine.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I remember our Tour de Charvet being OK (considering the drought conditions) until the final section scratching across frozen avy debris. As mentioned previously, I was merely displeased but Tony was ready to sue the guide after that.

Not really. There were about 5 turns of softened corn and I had to deviate a bit into more direct sun to get that. James’ line was 100% hardpack IIRC.

I was more critical precisely because I knew enough about the area and current conditions that I should have spoken up.

Part of the problem was that I didn’t have a confident constructive alternative. The day before, the iSKI guide had to poke around linking short fall lines of smooth wind pack to avoid widespread sastrugi.

Over the next two days I became more critical. On my own I found sustained fall lines of smooth windbuff off both the Tignes Glacier tram and the surface lift up to Grands Vallons. These are not obscure locations and a local guide should have known about them.

ChrisC is way more prepared than I am to make constructive suggestions to guides in the Alps.

 

[jimk]

Wow. That was a very sobering story from @skiandgolfnut . Glad everyone came out alive. Kind of highlights the differences in risk involved in American vs. European off-piste skiing. No wonder the typical recreational European skier does not seem to be too keen on partaking in casual, unguided off-piste skiing.

 

[skiandgolfnut]

Did not snap any photos at Corvatsch yesterday or Corviglia today but have some more of the fun day on Wednesday. Flat light today put a damper on things but we were able to find some good off piste routes in the trees down to Silvaplana. We were also able to get out by 815, they open early here, and the sun was out until about 10. The groomed pistes around Randolins were fantastic and there remained plenty of easily accessible untracked powder even 4 days later. The competition here is very low.

Here is my buddy after getting dug out and a photo taken from below of me and my other friend on the right side, just outside the edge of the slide. If you look closely on the left side you can see a speck that I am pretty sure is my friend buried and the guy on the top left who told us we saved his life. And a video of me skiing the line before the slide.

https://imgur.com/a/ralBoUp

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Did you hear the infamous "whooompf" sound?

 

[jimk]

@skiandgolfnut
I suppose it's fair to say the airbag saved your friend's life?!?

 

[skiandgolfnut]

Do not recall hearing that sound. It was very surreal and seemed to be happening very slowly. In the moment it didn’t seem so large but in hindsight I guess it was. The airbag clearly saved the day. Unbelievable piece of equipment.

Looks like we will be charged for the helicopter even though we really did not need it. Hopefully Amex will cover it. Unbelievable.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Looks like we will be charged for the helicopter even though we really did not need it. Hopefully Amex will cover it. Unbelievable.

We had this discussion two years ago about credit cards covering emergency evac in Europe. I gave up my Delta AMEX many moons ago and can't speak for it; however, I asked Chase about my United Explorer card and the answer was in post #15: emergency evac not covered. I googled and several responses put the cost of a helicopter rescue in Switzerland at approx. $3,900.

Also brought up in that thread was how a platinum level of a credit card may cover things that the lower levels don't. Did we ever get an answer for that question?

Let us know what the verdict is.

 

[Tony Crocker]

As I may have mentioned before we pay $109 every six months for Amex travel medical which covers evacuation. It has been accepted for most our exotic travels including Antarctica.

 

[skiandgolfnut]

Their current position is had we called Amex in the moment and asked them to send a helicopter it would be covered. But getting reimbursed is not covered. Frustrating given we did not call it, ultimately we did not need it, and they really didn’t do anything. We will keep speaking with them and hope for a more positive outcome.

 

[ChrisC]

This is one item I have not researched - evacuation costs. I typically will always buy the 'insurance' add-on, but I am unsure if it only covers 'on-piste' rescues.

Some Helicopter Evacuation discussions on Snowheads https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=84948&start=80

It looks like France ski resort insurance covers a lot: Henry's Avalanche Talk (excellent avy reports for Val d'Isere/Tignes)

Off Piste Ski Insurance | Off Piste Snowboard Insurance - HAT

Practical advice for off piste skiers and ski tourers looking to obtain off piste ski insurance that will actually cover them for going off piste.

henrysavalanchetalk.com

Carre Neige is an insurance you can buy when purchasing a lift pass in France. This is whether you purchase a day pass a week pass or a season pass. Now everything that it covers will be covered by your travel insurance. So why get it? The reason you might want to buy it is that if you have an accident and you need a resort rescue and you have Carre Neige, then the rescue service will not charge you anything, they will not impound your skis pending payment, and you do not have to make a claim. So it saves a lot of bother.​

​

Carre Neige provides medical costs and rescue in the event of an accident in or around the resort where you bought it. It also covers repatriation and reimburses your unused lift pass. It is simple to buy and covers off-piste and ski touring in the resort area. See the information here.​

​

It is not a full replacement for travel insurance. But maybe a low-cost cost, useful add-on​

Rescue Costs in Tignes:

https://www.tignes.net/uploads/media/default/0001/70/5dfde128a2638f6ab44efb2c2ba3672810fc63b3.pdf

The #1 ski insurance!

Rescue costs for ski patrols and helicopters can be very high. Ski insurance is strongly recommended. Carré Neige offers several advantages, as it provides specific protection for winter sports activities. It offers medical coverage for accidents and injuries that may occur on the ski slopes...

www.skipass-tignes.com

 

[jamesdeluxe]

When one hires a guide, is there fine print in whatever you sign that absolves them (or their employers) from responsibility when they lead clients into a dangerous situation on a 4-rating day -- and the clients are on the hook for the resulting heli-evac?

had we called Amex in the moment and asked them to send a helicopter it would be covered

Imagine that. Your friend is gravely injured and you're trying to get through several levels of customer service reps at AMEX to tell them to send a helicopter.

 

[skiandgolfnut]

When one hires a guide, is there fine print in whatever you sign that absolves them (or their employers) from responsibility when they lead clients into a dangerous situation on a 4-rating day -- and the clients are on the hook for the resulting heli-evac?


Imagine that. Your friend is gravely injured and you're trying to get through several levels of customer service reps at AMEX to tell them to send a helicopter.

We haven't really had a conversation with the ski school yet. To be honest, we do not want to cause any trouble for our guide who is a lovely guy and obviously is despondent over what happened. I think if we were more aggressive with the school it could make things difficult for him and we are not the type of people that are looking to make things any worse for him. I think when the dust settles if Amex does not come through we will speak with them and see if there is anything they can do for us.

On future trips I will look into purchasing specific policies that cover this sort of thing. The guide told us all residents of St Moritz pay 40 Euro a season and are covered. The ski school really should demand that all clients purchase some sort of product like this. It would really make life easier for people that wind up in already terrible situations.

 

[ChrisC]

On future trips I will look into purchasing specific policies that cover this sort of thing. The guide told us all residents of St Moritz pay 40 Euro a season and are covered. The ski school really should demand that all clients purchase some sort of product like this. It would really make life easier for people that wind up in already terrible situations.

I typically buy the insurance supplement at $3-5 USD/day on top of the lift ticket.

I don't know if you did that in St. Moritz, but your group might be covered if you did:

WEbsite insurance option:

LINK

 

[skiandgolfnut]

Ikon pass. I doubt it but I’ll check.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

The ski school really should demand that all clients purchase some sort of product like this.

As an American, where everything is checked by lawyers every which way for legal exposure, this would seem to be an obvious thing to do. Or Switzerland could take a more aggressive approach like France with artful PSAs making skiers aware of the financial risk they're taking without insurance, as I mentioned in post #32. Culturally, I don't see that happening -- not in the Swiss style.