AlpineZone
New member
very, Very, VERY well said!NHpowderhound":hwn4mmbp said:
sugarloaf, me, wildcat , nh, killington vt-4-20/21
- Thread starter joegm
- Start date
powderfreak
New member
I've never been to Sugarloaf but have also NEVER heard a negative thing about the place. I also agree with the whole, you can never have a bad day skiing. You were out in the mountains, the Maine backwoods, with skis on your feet and you're complaining about the lack of overnight grooming or the weather didn't pan out as you had hoped so the bump runs were frozen solid? This is New England you're talking about. We'll have flash freezes in January...April its not truely a flash freeze so to speak, but temperatures will fluctuate nearly daily from above to below freezing and sometimes they stay put below freezing for a day or two.
I can't defend Sugarloaf because I wasn't there. Go to a ski area, especially a new-to-you one with an open mind. Explore the place. Even if conditions were horrible...you drove all the way up there...why not take the day to explore the place, see how sketchy a situation you can get yourself into with the frozen conditions, and have some fun? Then instead of remembering how horrible a day it was, you could be remembering the time you and your friend got stuck on an ultra-steep frozen trail far from the hoards skiing the frozen groomer with no ice axe and you had to find a way down. Know what I mean?
Personally I find Sugarloaf's snow reports to be some of the best in the East. Their snowfall generally matches up with what I'd expect to fall there (ie. no *surprises*) based on NWS spotter reports, radar data, ect. The weather might be a little fuzzy cause I think it is done by Romer who can be a little too optimistic for me, but overall, I'd take what they say over Killington anyday of the week.
I can't defend Sugarloaf because I wasn't there. Go to a ski area, especially a new-to-you one with an open mind. Explore the place. Even if conditions were horrible...you drove all the way up there...why not take the day to explore the place, see how sketchy a situation you can get yourself into with the frozen conditions, and have some fun? Then instead of remembering how horrible a day it was, you could be remembering the time you and your friend got stuck on an ultra-steep frozen trail far from the hoards skiing the frozen groomer with no ice axe and you had to find a way down. Know what I mean?
Personally I find Sugarloaf's snow reports to be some of the best in the East. Their snowfall generally matches up with what I'd expect to fall there (ie. no *surprises*) based on NWS spotter reports, radar data, ect. The weather might be a little fuzzy cause I think it is done by Romer who can be a little too optimistic for me, but overall, I'd take what they say over Killington anyday of the week.
NHpowderhound
New member
MRG would be alot better with a Grand Summit Hotel and Conference Center. :lol:
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Geoff
New member
Chromer":cnywx337 said:
Yeah, you're right. What I meant to suggest was one of those huge Garaventa-CTEC gondolas like the Eagle Bahn at Vail. Capacity 12. Or that 12-seater Poma Gondola at Stratton. Blow one of those suckers right up the middle of the old Gondi Line and the whole place would track out on a powder day by 9:30.
MRG could stand for two of them. Need to keep the skiers segregated from the dirbag pinnahs.
joegm
New member
Against the advice of 3 out of the 4 fully supportive pm?s I received in my mailbox, I?m gonna respond to some of the more silly comments made above because frankly, it?s like shooting fish in a barrel :lol:
Loafer89- POST MON 4-25-842AM- it?S not bitching- it called the no bull ski reports- if u want to hear all happy talk and outright lies why not just click onto the mountain's web site- don?t get upset because the facts get reported 2) when have I ever made any claims about my skiing ability other than to say I am not really a great bump skier so I like medium pitched blue bump runs? When have I ever derided anyone else?s ABILITY? 3) ? this is not a mountain that likes to groom trails when the temps are above freezing ? . are u out of your mind?- that was the reason for the rip? IT WENT BELOW FREEZING !!!!!! AND THE DECISION NOT TO GROOM IT MADE IT JUNK. 4) I have no idea what your point is on the third paragraph
Alpinezone-post 4-25-948am- I was not trying to assess the mountain for the whole season with the report- it was a NO BULL FROM THAT DAY- and that day was awful mainly because they made awful decisions ( a flash freeze should mean a flash groom ) . 2) The comments about the layout and the runouts would not change because of any more open terrain or different snow surface. 3) I never advocated sending out the groomers every night. I?ve been killing K for doing that. The point is to send out the groomers when it is warranted ie a FLASH FREEZE. Is this really so hard to understand? 4) it?s not bitchin- it?s the no bulls 5) the snow/surface conditions that day were crap because they choose not to groom. It would have been at least a good day if they groomed it . 6) what is your point in talking about passholders knowing how the place skis in winter what does that have to do with anything relating to this issue. Why is it so unreasonable to expect a place to advertise truthfully, especially when the conditions are so volatile like in the spring. ? 7) no one would have been bitchin if they groomed flat the usually groomed runs that day and left the usual bump runs alone. The day would simply have been skiing on flat runs on groomed snow. I wouldn?t expect to ski bumps after a hard freeze and neither would anyone reasonable. That statement you made makes no sense at all seeing as it was never advocated to groom it all out. 8) if I want a majic act , ill go to the circus. I just wanted a decent days of making turns for the 400 plus miles I put in the car.
Geoff-post 4-25-1203- a below average snowpack, and base depths had nothing to do with the day?s events- or lack of them? it was all about the ridiculous decision not too groom. If the place cannot afford to put out a groomer on a few trails then they should not have opened for the day and should have said so the day before on their web site. But apparently all of the waterholders like yourself don?t feel the place was obligated to do that.simple thing.
Sugarloafer-post-4-25-315- far more agree than you think as my pm box shows.. they just can?t be bothered responding to such absurd partisan waterholding 2) again my friend, I have never talked about my skills as a skier as I find it a dubious exercise on a web site for anyone to do. Your recommendations for me to take some lessons though, I do find amusing. Come and ski at K on Tuesday and Wed this week or the week after and maybe you can show me a thing or two . i'm really looking forward to getting some new insights from you that john smart, sean smith, ryan johnson, shelly robertson, trenon paynter, jim schiman, kelly ringstad, mike douglas, jay vaughn p.a. rousseau and the rest of those sub par headfaker skiers from SMS couldn't give us. ( JIMG, CAN U BELIEVE THESE GUYS ) :roll: 3) the terrain at loaf on the day in question was not challenging. It was nothing. It was useless and it was a shameful rip off.
Patrick-post-4-25-335pm- I don?t mean to include u in the donkey corral casue I know u are a good guy with good insights, but u were not at the loaf that day? the conditions were bad. It was virtually unskiable. And it didn?t have to be. That is the and was the point. If they groomed a few of the normally groomed runs , it would have changed it totally around
NHPH post-4-25-628-1) why are you so willing to accept lying from resorts. I don?t think you would put up with that sort of lying in any other aspect of life. 2) wizard of wall st? your comments about what it takes to figure out what is going on could be the most absurd thing posted yet on this topic. I didn?t need to figure it out. THEY TOLD ME WHAT WAS GOING ON.. IT?S WHY WE WENT THERE- REMEMBER POWDER HOUND. The problem was what they said was outright lying. YOUR RIGHT POWDER HOUND, I?M A COMPLETE IDIOT FOR BELIEVING WHAT THEY SAID. SHAME ON ME. Unbelievable!!!! 3) u can imagine how much it cost for them to fill up the tank of a groomer? Yeah, probably about as much as it cost me to fill up our gas tank and drive 400 miles for NOTHING. WITH A STATEMENT LIKE THAT, U HAVE TO BE HOLDING ASC STOCK PAL .
AND LAST BUT CERTAINLY LEAST:
NYMOUS-POST-4-27-5AM ? KING OF THE DONKEYS- professional lurker who has not posted once all year. your post speaks for itself. I type fast and I don?t have time to spell check cause I have other things to do besides ? lurking?? around.
and to wrap it up, as pm said to me. the total useful no bulls provided all season by the majority of the above listed donkey's proabably numbers in the single digits :roll: take em for what their worth indeed, guys
:wink:
Loafer89- POST MON 4-25-842AM- it?S not bitching- it called the no bull ski reports- if u want to hear all happy talk and outright lies why not just click onto the mountain's web site- don?t get upset because the facts get reported 2) when have I ever made any claims about my skiing ability other than to say I am not really a great bump skier so I like medium pitched blue bump runs? When have I ever derided anyone else?s ABILITY? 3) ? this is not a mountain that likes to groom trails when the temps are above freezing ? . are u out of your mind?- that was the reason for the rip? IT WENT BELOW FREEZING !!!!!! AND THE DECISION NOT TO GROOM IT MADE IT JUNK. 4) I have no idea what your point is on the third paragraph
Alpinezone-post 4-25-948am- I was not trying to assess the mountain for the whole season with the report- it was a NO BULL FROM THAT DAY- and that day was awful mainly because they made awful decisions ( a flash freeze should mean a flash groom ) . 2) The comments about the layout and the runouts would not change because of any more open terrain or different snow surface. 3) I never advocated sending out the groomers every night. I?ve been killing K for doing that. The point is to send out the groomers when it is warranted ie a FLASH FREEZE. Is this really so hard to understand? 4) it?s not bitchin- it?s the no bulls 5) the snow/surface conditions that day were crap because they choose not to groom. It would have been at least a good day if they groomed it . 6) what is your point in talking about passholders knowing how the place skis in winter what does that have to do with anything relating to this issue. Why is it so unreasonable to expect a place to advertise truthfully, especially when the conditions are so volatile like in the spring. ? 7) no one would have been bitchin if they groomed flat the usually groomed runs that day and left the usual bump runs alone. The day would simply have been skiing on flat runs on groomed snow. I wouldn?t expect to ski bumps after a hard freeze and neither would anyone reasonable. That statement you made makes no sense at all seeing as it was never advocated to groom it all out. 8) if I want a majic act , ill go to the circus. I just wanted a decent days of making turns for the 400 plus miles I put in the car.
Geoff-post 4-25-1203- a below average snowpack, and base depths had nothing to do with the day?s events- or lack of them? it was all about the ridiculous decision not too groom. If the place cannot afford to put out a groomer on a few trails then they should not have opened for the day and should have said so the day before on their web site. But apparently all of the waterholders like yourself don?t feel the place was obligated to do that.simple thing.
Sugarloafer-post-4-25-315- far more agree than you think as my pm box shows.. they just can?t be bothered responding to such absurd partisan waterholding 2) again my friend, I have never talked about my skills as a skier as I find it a dubious exercise on a web site for anyone to do. Your recommendations for me to take some lessons though, I do find amusing. Come and ski at K on Tuesday and Wed this week or the week after and maybe you can show me a thing or two . i'm really looking forward to getting some new insights from you that john smart, sean smith, ryan johnson, shelly robertson, trenon paynter, jim schiman, kelly ringstad, mike douglas, jay vaughn p.a. rousseau and the rest of those sub par headfaker skiers from SMS couldn't give us. ( JIMG, CAN U BELIEVE THESE GUYS ) :roll: 3) the terrain at loaf on the day in question was not challenging. It was nothing. It was useless and it was a shameful rip off.
Patrick-post-4-25-335pm- I don?t mean to include u in the donkey corral casue I know u are a good guy with good insights, but u were not at the loaf that day? the conditions were bad. It was virtually unskiable. And it didn?t have to be. That is the and was the point. If they groomed a few of the normally groomed runs , it would have changed it totally around
NHPH post-4-25-628-1) why are you so willing to accept lying from resorts. I don?t think you would put up with that sort of lying in any other aspect of life. 2) wizard of wall st? your comments about what it takes to figure out what is going on could be the most absurd thing posted yet on this topic. I didn?t need to figure it out. THEY TOLD ME WHAT WAS GOING ON.. IT?S WHY WE WENT THERE- REMEMBER POWDER HOUND. The problem was what they said was outright lying. YOUR RIGHT POWDER HOUND, I?M A COMPLETE IDIOT FOR BELIEVING WHAT THEY SAID. SHAME ON ME. Unbelievable!!!! 3) u can imagine how much it cost for them to fill up the tank of a groomer? Yeah, probably about as much as it cost me to fill up our gas tank and drive 400 miles for NOTHING. WITH A STATEMENT LIKE THAT, U HAVE TO BE HOLDING ASC STOCK PAL .
AND LAST BUT CERTAINLY LEAST:
NYMOUS-POST-4-27-5AM ? KING OF THE DONKEYS- professional lurker who has not posted once all year. your post speaks for itself. I type fast and I don?t have time to spell check cause I have other things to do besides ? lurking?? around.
and to wrap it up, as pm said to me. the total useful no bulls provided all season by the majority of the above listed donkey's proabably numbers in the single digits :roll: take em for what their worth indeed, guys
:wink:
Sugarloafer
New member
:lol: :lol: :lol: Buddy, your the troll of the year !!!! Who the hell knows what your PM box has in it and you did acknowledge that you're just an intermediate skier, which I don't believe based you your novice-like observations...I still recommend that you sign up for some lessons !!! Since you seem to like name dropping (I assume.....these guys in your post are famous ??), I'd like to invite you up to the Loaf again, so Bode and Kirsten can give you some lessons on skiing Sugarloaf powder !!!! :wink: :wink:
NHpowderhound
New member
Um, I never said anyone was a complete idiot. Please dont get nasty joe, some of us are just trying to give some alternative input.
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:shock: Getting a little nasty around here.
Seriously folks, why not lay off each other a bit?
I certainly am happy that joe continues to post here...obviously he likes to rant but we all know this so if you read a post from him you know what to expect. I've enjoyed the rants myself, and on several occasions he's talked with ski area high-ups and reported on their thoughts+reasoning here, which has been quite interesting.
OTOH liking a place (even, god forbid, enough that you choose your handle after that place) and disagreeing with a negative assessment is hardly "absurd partisan waterholding"...I've never been to sugarloaf myself so find a debate of opposing views to actually be useful in getting a better sense of whether or not I'd like the place.
And since when is somebody's ability level an insult?
Seriously folks, why not lay off each other a bit?
I certainly am happy that joe continues to post here...obviously he likes to rant but we all know this so if you read a post from him you know what to expect. I've enjoyed the rants myself, and on several occasions he's talked with ski area high-ups and reported on their thoughts+reasoning here, which has been quite interesting.
OTOH liking a place (even, god forbid, enough that you choose your handle after that place) and disagreeing with a negative assessment is hardly "absurd partisan waterholding"...I've never been to sugarloaf myself so find a debate of opposing views to actually be useful in getting a better sense of whether or not I'd like the place.
And since when is somebody's ability level an insult?
OK, it's time to hop in here and try to bring some civility back to this topic. 20th said it better than I could hope to. Let's not type anything that we wouldn't dare say face-to-face. Debate is good, debate is healthy...but personal attacks aren't. We've always been fortunate to stay above the fray that's destroyed so many other ski-related communities -- let's keep it that way, huh?
Hear, hear!
20thSkier":wn0ii6tz said:
Hear, hear!
Patrick
Well-known member
I don't necessarly disagree about the fact that the conditions might have been better if there had groomed a few runs.joegm":2f4qk0io said:
In my eyes, conditions are never bad (joe, you can call me nuts :mrgreen: - everyone else does. okay, if it's only rock and mud everywhere then it might be bad). Anyways, I went skiing last Saturday regardless of the forecast, I just find that a bad day skiing is better than a good day at work.
I have skiied K with mud and dirt in the rain and loved it. The only thing I complain about are people factor (skiers, management, etc.). But that's just me joe...I don't expect everyone to look through the world through colour tainted glasses 8) . HOWEVER, I WOULDN'T QUALIFIES IT as ski resort reporting, I don't exagerate my rare reporting.
Look at the link from the FTO archives to see what good :? conditions are. :lol:
I through I had posted the picture of me skiing next to the mud, I guess not, but my friend pics are still posted. We only took 4 pics that trip, 'cause it rained or/and was foggy those two days.
http://216.250.243.13/discus2/messages/ ... 1054405710
I agree with Patrick that there is no such thing as a bad ski day. I skied at Sugarloaf in January 1998, during one of the worst ice storms in New England history. I remember skiing in rain/freezing rain and 6"+ of pure sleet on the lower mountain. I would come into our condo nearly unable to move because of all the ice buildup on my ski suit, but still I had fun and it is an experience that I will always remember.
This year's trip back to Sugarloaf in February started out with two days of sunshine and temperatures even at the summit in the 50's. One day of rain , with heavy wet snow above 3,000ft (rain below that all day) and great skiing on White Nitro.
And 2 days of deep powder skiing with up to 24" of great snow. Still I managed to have a great time every day, with no compliants.
This year's trip back to Sugarloaf in February started out with two days of sunshine and temperatures even at the summit in the 50's. One day of rain , with heavy wet snow above 3,000ft (rain below that all day) and great skiing on White Nitro.
And 2 days of deep powder skiing with up to 24" of great snow. Still I managed to have a great time every day, with no compliants.
I would agree with joegm on a couple of points. Few of us have unlimited time and resources to ski and must choose our ski days. Sugarloaf has a late season reputation: Trails are consistently slower to open mid-season and slower to close late season than most eastern areas. So knowing that Sugarloaf was hammered with 7 feet of snow in early March, the "120 trails open" would have looked credible to me too. ASC management fully deserves joegm's flame on both the misleading report and the failure to groom anything after the freeze. I would be pissed too after deciding to drive 400 miles with that result.
I've read enough about eastern skiing and observed "eastern spring conditions" myself on 2 trips to know that extreme vigilance is appropriate in deciding when/where to ski. I would certainly have tried to find a "local's report" in this situation. That wouldn't have helped this time because there were rave reports from Sugarloaf the weekend of April 16-17: see posts #21-22 at http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=27007 . So the only report that might have saved joegm would have been a weather forecast predicting the hard freeze. I would have called the trip off if I knew that (perhaps unlike Patrick or loafer89).
Where I part company with joegm is the generalization to condemn Sugarloaf overall. There are 51 ski areas that I have skied only one day, and I always try to keep in mind if the conditions I'm experiencing are representative. On my eastern trip in March 2003 I skied Stowe at 50 degrees and MRG at 60 degrees. Then the temps plunged into the 30's for my 3rd day at Jay and conditions were probably similar to joegm's at Sugarloaf. Fortunately Jay did groom enough that I could get around the mountain and get a feel for the place, except for the woods. I drew the conclusion that Jay is a very attractive place when the snow is fresh, and should probably be avoided when it is not. And I'm sure MRG was awful the day I was at Jay.
Only once I'm committed do I take Patrick and loafer89's attitude that "there is no such thing as a bad ski day." Exhibit A was my rain-soaked snowcat skiing this past January. I viewed it as a challenge: can I figure out how to stay upright in this stuff? But when it was over we did an extra 10 hours driving to get some skiing on snow that had not been rained upon. And I have several times decided not to spend the money for a Mammoth lift ticket when the weather is so bad that 3/4 of the mountain will be closed.
I've read enough about eastern skiing and observed "eastern spring conditions" myself on 2 trips to know that extreme vigilance is appropriate in deciding when/where to ski. I would certainly have tried to find a "local's report" in this situation. That wouldn't have helped this time because there were rave reports from Sugarloaf the weekend of April 16-17: see posts #21-22 at http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=27007 . So the only report that might have saved joegm would have been a weather forecast predicting the hard freeze. I would have called the trip off if I knew that (perhaps unlike Patrick or loafer89).
Where I part company with joegm is the generalization to condemn Sugarloaf overall. There are 51 ski areas that I have skied only one day, and I always try to keep in mind if the conditions I'm experiencing are representative. On my eastern trip in March 2003 I skied Stowe at 50 degrees and MRG at 60 degrees. Then the temps plunged into the 30's for my 3rd day at Jay and conditions were probably similar to joegm's at Sugarloaf. Fortunately Jay did groom enough that I could get around the mountain and get a feel for the place, except for the woods. I drew the conclusion that Jay is a very attractive place when the snow is fresh, and should probably be avoided when it is not. And I'm sure MRG was awful the day I was at Jay.
Only once I'm committed do I take Patrick and loafer89's attitude that "there is no such thing as a bad ski day." Exhibit A was my rain-soaked snowcat skiing this past January. I viewed it as a challenge: can I figure out how to stay upright in this stuff? But when it was over we did an extra 10 hours driving to get some skiing on snow that had not been rained upon. And I have several times decided not to spend the money for a Mammoth lift ticket when the weather is so bad that 3/4 of the mountain will be closed.