this is not good

joegm

New member
i don't like how this is shaping up for sure.

1) reading K zone reports that natural snow trails are toast

2) from snowsource_ Average natural snow depths at ski area base elevations:.
Projected by Friday morning: 12" south to 18" north


3) wildcat apparently decided to just close for the day..
Thursday, February 12th Report: Due to current weather, conditions, and the limited business experienced while open this morning, Wildcat Mountain has closed for the remainder of today, Thursday, February 12th. Wildcat Mountain is scheduled to re-open Friday, February 13th at 9:00am and please check back for an updated snow report and operations forecast.


they also seemed to cut their trail count by 40 % overnight.....the language they are using to me is ominous


i dont like the sound of this for april that's for sure :shock:
 
As I mentioned in joegm's previous weather post, I see some analogies to 2003. Cold weather kept conditions good for quite a while, but if the bases don't build up the spring collapse happens earlier.

I'd be interested in JSpin's take, because his reports have been quite positive. How well does he think Northern Vermont will hold up as the season progresses? Personally, I think the East would be in trouble any year if it stopped snowing not long after the end of January. Average Vermont snowfall in February/March is substantial, and if they get it you'll have a decent spring. And given poor eastern snow preservation, it won't last into April without new snow no matter how much is there at the end of January.
 
Tony Crocker":1ogfestn said:
Personally, I think the East would be in trouble any year if it stopped snowing not long after the end of January. Average Vermont snowfall in February/March is substantial, and if they get it you'll have a decent spring. And given poor eastern snow preservation, it won't last into April without new snow no matter how much is there at the end of January.

The weather here is pretty bad, but some people have a short memories. Okay, it's been raining all day and started last night. Got warm for a 24 hour period last Saturday. February total snowfall is 1.4cm, average for the entire month is 46cm, it was 90cm last season. These numbers are for Ottawa Airport which doesn't have any snowmaking. :wink:

2007-08 2008-09 avg diff
october 0 11.2 4.1 7.1 273%
november 59.8 25.2 21.9 3.3 115%
december 121 85.2 57.2 28 149%
january 42.4 80.4 55.2 25.2 146%
february 89.9 1.4 46 -44.6 3% (we had 53cm at this date last year)
march 113.4 0 39.8 -39.8
april 6.2 0 11 -11
may 0 0 0.6 -0.6
total 432.7 203.4 235.8 -32.4 86%

Total on February 11th last season: 274cm versus 203cm. Snowpack? last season: 36cm versus 50cm this season.

The snow depth at the airport was down yesterday at 50cm, we lost 5cm in the previous day, 15cm since Saturday. Regardless the snowdepth last year was 36cm and as low as 11cm on February 1st. Temps are forecast to head below freezing overnight for an extended period, so I'm not to worried. Joe sounds like Montreal Canadiens fans right now, panic after another crushing defeat last night, panic in the street with 8 losts in the last 10 games, many of them blowouts.

Winter is not over, I'm not worried at all. Regardless how glum and terrible they are, the Canadiens and the Winter are going to bounce back and to make it to late April if not longer. 8)
 
Patrick is in substance correct. The eastern season has been above average so far, perhaps a bit better north of the border than south. The East gets these meltdowns nearly every year, as evidenced by the prevailing superstition about the "January thaw" that didn't happen this year until now. So it really depends upon how soon a new storm reopens closed trails and resurfaces the rest.
 
I agree things are bad now but the game isn't over yet and lots of time to rebuild . The east is also very different as areas in Quebec north and north east of the St. Lawrence have lots of snow and can tough it out until the rain stops everything freezes over and new snow arrives. However areas in NE are probably already down to the grass and I am sure driving around the towns and villages there is probably no snow on the ground. For example last week in Burlington there was only 12' of snow on the ground , now there is probably just patches , So Joe is probably looking out and grass and mud with snow patches while in Quebec were still looking out at a few feet of natural snow.
 
Most northeastern skiers who know what they're doing prefer skiing from mid march to late march. Often times the weather moderates and you get corn. I can remember many times where march included two massive blizzards and the snow was wonderful. I suppose this is analogous april skiing out west.
 
i'd say mid march to late april for some of the greatest eastern skiing especially at places like sugarloaf, sunday river, killington, wildcat. on the seacoast we still have a solid foot of snowpack in most places and i toured on more than that in great spring conditions today. western maine still has the most in ne at close to or more than 2 feet in the valleys. for eastern skiing it's plenty early to discount a great spring yet. we do have great preservation at the resorts that are snowmaking heavy hitters. the loaf gets 50-100+ inches in april and has proven tom me almost every late april to be the place to be.
rog
 
the loaf gets 50-100+ inches in april
:bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs:
Even including the outlier 107 inches in April 2007, Sugarloaf has averaged 20.6 inches in April over the past 12 years. And while we're on the subject the Sugarloaf season average over 42 years is a whopping 175.45 inches. Good thing it gets decent spring corn, because floatable powder comes once in a blue moon with a track record like that.

Most northeastern skiers who know what they're doing prefer skiing from mid march to late march.
I would take some issue with this also. The FTO reports I've used to compile http://bestsnow.net/vrmthist.htm show a broad plateau of average snow conditions from mid-January to mid-March. Interestingly, this is the same pattern one observes in western areas with decent snowfall but worse than average preservation. Warm weather after the spring solstice, you're looking at isothermic mush followed by rapid meltdown on a lot of eastern lift-served runs. The steeper bumps (joegm) and backcountry (icelantic et al) are the conspicuous exception. And Patrick is right that the meltdown tends to come somewhat later in Quebec (or Sugarloaf) than most of New England.
 
Tony Crocker":2af82cvr said:
the loaf gets 50-100+ inches in april
:bs: :bs: :bs: :bs: :bs:
Even including the outlier 107 inches in April 2007, Sugarloaf has averaged 20.6 inches in April over the past 12 years. And while we're on the subject the Sugarloaf season average over 42 years is a whopping 175.45 inches. Good thing it gets decent spring corn, because floatable powder comes once in a blue moon with a track record like that.

Most northeastern skiers who know what they're doing prefer skiing from mid march to late march.
I would take some issue with this also. The FTO reports I've used to compile http://bestsnow.net/vrmthist.htm show a broad plateau of average snow conditions from mid-January to mid-March. Interestingly, this is the same pattern one observes in western areas with decent snowfall but worse than average preservation. Warm weather after the spring solstice, you're looking at isothermic mush followed by rapid meltdown on a lot of eastern lift-served runs. The steeper bumps (joegm) and backcountry (icelantic et al) are the conspicuous exception. And Patrick is right that the meltdown tends to come somewhat later in Quebec (or Sugarloaf) than most of New England.

mmm, april 2007, that was a good one! that was the onei was referring to as well as a few others. i didn't figure in all 12 years and all i had to do was check my records. :wink:
rog
 
I certainly agree with the short memory comment. While no Eastern snow sports enthusiasts are happy about this thaw, it wasn't the worst thaw I've ever seen, and February and March are usually good 'n' snowy for the mountains. I would also say that, while not as good as last year, the ski season in New England has been above average until this thaw. :)

But, trust me, once we get beyond the 3rd week in March, the majority of casual skiers hang it up for the year regardless of how much snow is in the mountains (emphasis on casual skiers, not the folks on this board). Once it starts to warm up in late March, most folks turn their attention to Spring, regardless of the fact that the weather and skiing are frequently better late season (late March - mid April) than during the Xmas holidays. That's why ski areas frequently close in early April even when they have substantial base depths - it's a money loser for them to run the lifts (not to mention staffing issues). Most folks just do not associate Spring with skiing - their loss.

OK, now we need help from Mother Nature & Ullr - starting next Thursday :-$
 
There's some noise about the potential for a big storm late next week. Seems like a long ways away. The waiting is rough, especially when there's a holiday weekend and I can potentially ski 3 days this weekend, though that will probably not happen, at least not on the slopes, but maybe a little xc in the hills.

We got 1-3" last night in the high hills, and there is still base up there where it had been skier-packed, so I may just take the dogs out to the state forests this weekend and see how it slides.

Haven't rode a lift since Alta a week ago and I probably won't ride one until the next storm which is a week away. I needed a break to rest and recover, but I'm beginning to feel some restlessness and am itchin to get on the boards again.
 
Tony Crocker":1jf2r3dy said:
I'd be interested in JSpin's take, because his reports have been quite positive. How well does he think Northern Vermont will hold up as the season progresses? Personally, I think the East would be in trouble any year if it stopped snowing not long after the end of January. Average Vermont snowfall in February/March is substantial, and if they get it you'll have a decent spring. And given poor eastern snow preservation, it won't last into April without new snow no matter how much is there at the end of January.

It’s interesting to hear that folks are considering the season above average, because I’d put it at about average compared to the typical Vermont ski seasons that I’ve experienced. Of course, that evaluation is coming from my perspective, so it’s certainly relative. We’ve had some nice weekends for skiing this season, but it took quite a while until you could absolutely plan ahead and know that the weekend was going to be stellar from several days out. It wasn’t until the weekend of Jan 31/Feb 1 that I wrote my first email letting friends down south know that it would be worth making the trip up to ski in terms of coverage, surface conditions, powder, air temperature, winds, sunshine, etc. We’d had a lot of nice weekend and midweek days up to that point where everything came together, but no weekends where I could announce several days ahead that everything would be optimal and folks should definitely come up to hit the slopes. One reason for the delay had been that Bolton’s slopes were really blasted with wind at one point during the holidays while they were in a fragile state, and despite plenty of snowfall, even some trails that are typically more protected (like “Twice as Nice”) were scoured. That was somewhat a Bolton-specific situation since the resort’s trails face west, but that seemed to slow the first half of the season from really taking off in my opinion.

To get a sense of where the Vermont snowfall is at, I grabbed the reported season-to-date snowfall numbers off of some of the websites for Vermont ski areas in the northern half of the state. Here they are relative to the annual snowfall averages for the entire season, along with the percentages:

Jay Peak: 267”/355” (75.2%)
Smugg’s: 244/288 (84.7%)
Stowe: 246”/333” (73.8%)
Bolton: 209”/300” (69.6%)
Mad River: 152”/250” (60.8%)
Sugarbush: 181”/269” (67.3%)
Killington: 208”/250” (83.2%)

I’m not sure where we should be at this point in the season, and those numbers might be ahead of average, but of course as we discussed in another thread, quantity can only tell so much of the story.

Here’s how the snowfall down at the house compares to the previous two seasons as of Feb 13:

2009: 130.6”
2008: 153.3”
2007: 59.0”

Average as of Feb 13: 114.3” +/- 49.2” (S.D.)

Unfortunately, I’ve only got the three seasons worth of data (with a huge S.D. thanks to 2007), but that number seems reasonable since I’m guessing our valley seasonal snowfall average is around 150 inches. Our weather only relates to what’s going on in the mountains to a certain degree, because you can have those seasons where you get more elevation-dependent events, but my Waterbury numbers track pretty well with the elevations and give some good information for the lower-elevation backcountry. If this season really takes off in February through April then it would have a good chance of moving to above average in my book, and I’d likely have to call it good if we hit 200+ inches of snow accumulation at the house like last season.

So overall, I’ve found this season about average, but fortunately an average winter around here is pretty good as far as I’m concerned. Even below average winters around here can be great as long as you know when to ski; in 50+ years of data, there are very few winters where the Mansfield stake doesn’t stay above 40 inches of depth for substantial amounts of time. And as many people observed this year, numerous areas of trees are fine to ski before the stake actually hits 40 inches. Low snowfall winters can simply mean that we had dry, cold conditions like we did part of this midwinter, but the backcountry can be in great shape.

With regard to the whole snowpack/spring skiing thing, I’m actually surprised that people are making a big deal of it, because my experience is that around here, regardless of whether it’s a fantastic season or a crappy one (in terms of snowfall), the lift-served skiing generally ends within the same couple of weeks. This is especially true since it’s the snowmaking trails that dictate the end of the season at a lot of the ski areas, not the natural snow trails.

J.Spin
 
all specific snowfall #'s and stats aside, as they don't mean much when there is not much fresh around or base for that matter to show for all of that snowfall, coming from me, someone that doesn't ski in one spot, but takes advantage of snowfall that vermont gets and doesn't get, meaning, i'll ski wherever the snow is best, sometimes on the coast, sometimes maine or new hampshire, i'd call this winter easily as good or better than last as the seacoast skiing has been better, the storms up north that i've hit have been deeper and the bc is, has filled in well up high for so early in the season that'll stretch till june or later.

funny how maine, i could be wrong, and i'm sure tony will let me know, has had half of the snowfall as some places in no vt but still has the same or more base. when it rains, it pours and vermont gets more snow, which means it also gets more rain in many instances and doesn't survive thaws as well as locales east often times. winter will come back, it almost always does.

we've definitely had more thaws this season or so it seems, but the skiing has been great as it always is if yer willing to go where the gettins the best. snowin? i'm goin!
rog
 
I've been out West three times this year and had big powder days two of the three trips (Utah(1) and Wyoming (2)). But they do not have the deep bases either to sustain a long corn season (May thru early July). I skied East Coast twice this year and had experiences of bordom and bad skiing conditions (ice and slopes crowded with snowboarders). Airfare and hotels out West are cheaper now than in years. Go West!!
 
Lifty@50":1lc90tov said:
I skied East Coast twice this year and had experiences of bordom and bad skiing conditions (ice and slopes crowded with (snowboarders)

and there's the difference between just going skiing and getting what you get, or going where the skiing is good at that time depending on where the conditions/crowds are best. you've had good luck out west, or so it seems, but many have reported trips here and on other forums where it was high pressure every day or even some rain, yes rain out there. i don't go west to ski anything other than untracked pow, which is why i go where i go and tour 90% of the days i'm out there. enjoy!
rog
 
Lifty@50":ir7pzkal said:
I've been out West three times this year and had big powder days two of the three trips (Utah(1) and Wyoming (2)). But they do not have the deep bases either

:shock:

Alta: 116"
Snowbird: 100"
Brighton: 91"
Solitude: 92"
Jackson Hole: 81"
Grand Targhee: 81"

And unlike Northeastern reported base depths, those are all-natural numbers.
 
Lifty@50":22aceg4b said:
I've been out West three times this year and had big powder days two of the three trips (Utah(1) and Wyoming (2)). But they do not have the deep bases either to sustain a long corn season (May thru early July).
Do you east coast guys like to just make up stuff? :-k
 
base in Central dacks is as deep as it ever has been for this time of year

from today
ridge021.jpg


ridge035.jpg
 
AREA FORECAST DISCUSSION
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE ALBANY NY
413 PM EST SAT FEB 14 2009

.LONG TERM /WEDNESDAY THROUGH SATURDAY/...

LOW PRESSURE OVER ILLINOIS WEDNESDAY MORNING WILL BE CENTERED OVER EAST CENTRAL NEW YORK AND WESTERN NEW ENGLAND THURSDAY MORNING. GFS BRINGS THE ZERO DEGREE LINE UP TO AROUND THE CAPITAL REGION WED NGT...BUT BY 700 IT IS WELL BELOW FREEZING SOUTH TO NEW JERSEY ...IN THE ADIRONDACKS AND LAKE GEORGE REGION...IT LOOKS LIKE MAINLY SNOW.

ANOTHER LOW EXPECTED TO DEVELOP OVER THE NORTH CENTRAL STATES IS PROGGED TO BE CENTERED OVER INDIANA SATURDAY MORNING... BRINGING THE NEXT GOOD CHANCE FOR PRECIP. MODELS RIGHT NOW HINT AT ALL SNOW...WITH SEVERAL INCHES POSSIBLE.
 
skimore":us6v6ozh said:
base in Central dacks is as deep as it ever has been for this time of year

So Kevin, did you ski? or just take pretty pix?

I surely hope a TR is on it's way with pix.

Looks like winter will be back in business and we should be able to ski some powder soon.

Great to see Harvey44 again on the board.
 
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