Utah and Other State Archaic Liquor Laws

[Admin]

there's still some WTF? alcohol laws in Utah that make it feel like a backwater compared to Europe, California, etc. The big ones I've run into are the fact restaurants can't serve alcohol before noon

I guess that makes New York and Florida backwaters, too.

Say you've just flown into Utah and you want to buy some wine or spirits to enjoy in your ski condo. In California the local grocery store (or the private liquor store down the street) will serve you. In Utah you've got to find one of a handful of state liquor stores and hope that it isn't Sunday or after 10pm. Study up before your trip!

And before your trip to eight other states, too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholic_ ... trol_state

 

[Marc_C]

And before your trip to eight other states, too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholic_ ... trol_state

Minor correction: that would be eighteen other states (unless you were thinking of just ski destination states, although Michigan would sure be a stretch in that respect, as would Pennsylvania!)

There are 18 control states plus Montgomery County, MD. Also, there is a different set of laws for domestic US military bases as well as a different set of laws for US protectorates - Puerto Rico, US Virgin Islands, and Guam.

 

[Admin]

Minor correction: that would be eighteen other states (unless you were thinking of just ski destination states, although Michigan would sure be a stretch in that respect, as would Pennsylvania!)

Yes, but the link quoted above indicates that only nine of those 18 control states operate their own state liquor stores.

 

[Marc_C]

In Utah you've got to find one of a handful of state liquor stores and hope that it isn't Sunday or after 10pm.

That means you can purchase liquor in UT 2 hours later each night than in Connecticut (where you can't buy on Sunday, either, including beer).

You'd also need to find a state liquor store or contract licensee in Washington, Idaho, Montana, Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, and Wyoming (if we're just limiting to destination ski states - there are 11 others). Even in California you cannot sell liquor for off-premise consumption between the hours of 2am and 6am.

 

[Admin]

It sure sucks when facts get in the way of preconceived notions and personal biases. :lol:

 

[socal]

It sure sucks when facts get in the way of preconceived notions and personal biases. :lol:

I dunno having spent some time (obviously not living) in SLC and having lived in PA (some odd laws too) I just can't seem to understand how you guys don't think the laws there are odd and lend themselves to visitors finding them to be inconvenient and just plane strange. It's one thing to have laws on where you can buy booze to go, it's another having all the strange rules about what I can drink when i go to a bar/restaurant/etc. Being kinda bored at work I dug up these on the liquor laws.

Anything that normalizes liquor laws for out-of-state visitors is good for Utah, said Steve Lindburg, general manager of a downtown hotel and a member of the state tourism board."People didn't understand. People felt isolated or even turned away," he said. "Now, that kind of becomes moot."Still, plenty of oddities remain among Utah's liquor laws. It is the only state that bans the sale of flavored malt beverages from grocery and convenience stores and is one of only a handful states where beer can contain no more than 3.2 percent alcohol by weight, or 4 percent by volume. Most beers contain 3.6 percent to 3.9 percent alcohol by weight. Bars and restaurants in Utah are allowed to serve full-strength beer if they buy it in bottles from the state liquor store."We should have real beer," said Kevin Frohmoder, who was sitting next to Morrison at No Name Saloon in Park City. "Why can't we all be one nation under God and do what everybody else does?"Happy hours remain illegal here, and ordering a double is also a no-no. No alcoholic drink can contain more than 2.5 ounces of liquor and in new restaurants, all cocktails must be mixed out of the view of customers.

http://www.standard.net/topics/news/2009/07/01/utah-bar-crawl-mark-end-liquor-restrictions

Metered Dispensing
Utah law requires restaurants, clubs, on-premise banquet licensees, and airport lounges to use a metered dispensing system that is calibrated to dispense no more than 1.5 ounces of primary liquor in a mixed drink. Secondary alcoholic flavorings may then be added to a mixed drink as the recipe requires, not to exceed a total of 2.5 ounces of spirituous liquor.

http://www.alcbev.state.ut.us/Liquor_Laws/liquor_laws_affecting_visitors.html#wine_liquor_beer

From the same site but a different page, even with all the crazy booze laws out there can you argue (and I'm sure you will) that these aren't the craziest?

Where can I buy a cocktail, a glass of wine, or a beer in Utah?
Liquor, wine, full-strength beer, and beer (3.2% alcohol) are available by the glass at licensed restaurants and clubs. Wine is also available by the bottle in these establishments. Beer may also be purchased in many places that have a "beer only" type license. These include taverns, beer bars, smaller restaurants or cafes, snack bars, etc.

Alcohol beverage service in a licensed restaurant requires that you order food with your drink, that your beverage be delivered to your table or counter by your server, and that you consume your drink at or near the table or counter.

Alcohol beverage service in a club does not require that you order food. Full bar service and table service are both available. Persons under the age of 21 are not allowed in the lounge or bar area of a club.

Beer service in "beer only" establishments does not require that you order food. Note, however, that persons under the age of 21 years may not be on the premises of certain "beer only" establishments such as taverns, beer bars, nightclubs, or cabarets.

It's no big deal as I'm not usually going out looking to get drunk and party in UT, but it's damn expensive when a mixed drink only has 1.5oz of 80ish proof booze in it. From my experience nationwide I've never seen anything close to the metering system other than maybe a bar using a jigger to keep costs down, even then the bar tenders usually pour a little extra into the glass.

 

[Admin]

I dunno having spent some time (obviously not living) in SLC and having lived in PA (some odd laws too) I just can't seem to understand how you guys don't think the laws there are odd and lend themselves to visitors finding them to be inconvenient and just plane strange.

Hey, no doubt. However, we're far from unique amongst states with weird liquor laws, and I was dispelling rsmith's efforts to single out Utah on a few specific issues that he brought up (which, BTW, have nothing in common with the ones you brought up).

Other unique state liquor laws that I'm familiar with without looking them up:
1. Vermont -- it's illegal to have two drinks at one time. You have to finish one and have the bartender pick the glass up before the tender can put the second one down. This creates strange issues, for example, with a "shot and a beer". The bartender has to take your beer back, give you the shot, you down the shot and give the glass back to the bartender, at which time the bartender can hand you back your beer.
2. Vermont -- it's illegal to have an open container of alcohol on a dance floor.
3. Texas? Oklahoma? I forget which -- Marc_C? -- it's a legal requirement for any bar to have a pot of soup prepared on the stove during operating hours.

 

[socal]

Other unique state liquor laws that I'm familiar with without looking them up:
1. Vermont -- it's illegal to have two drinks at one time. You have to finish one and have the bartender pick the glass up before the tender can put the second one down. This creates strange issues, for example, with a "shot and a beer". The bartender has to take your beer back, give you the shot, you down the shot and give the glass back to the bartender, at which time the bartender can hand you back your beer.
2. Vermont -- it's illegal to have an open container of alcohol on a dance floor.
3. Texas? Oklahoma? I forget which -- Marc_C? -- it's a legal requirement for any bar to have a pot of soup prepared on the stove during operating hours.

I think i remember that one drink at a time rule from some visits to VT. And I'm anxious to hear about the pot of soup law, that's gotta top any of the odd ones out there if it's true.

 

[Admin]

I was close, it's Nebraska:
http://www.lawguru.com/weird/part01.html

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

 

[Marc_C]

I dunno having spent some time (obviously not living) in SLC and having lived in PA (some odd laws too) I just can't seem to understand how you guys don't think the laws there are odd and lend themselves to visitors finding them to be inconvenient and just plane strange. It's one thing to have laws on where you can buy booze to go, it's another having all the strange rules about what I can drink when i go to a bar/restaurant/etc.

You're missing the point. It's not that Utah doesn't have odd liquor laws - it's that they are no more odd or strange than those in any other state. Because of decades of more restrictive laws, Utah rightfully earned the reputation of being highly restrictive and yes, the land of strange laws. The majority of these have been removed over the past decade, so now it's no more strange or bizarre than anywhere else.

Did you know that...
you cannot be on a dance floor holding an alcoholic beverage in ......Vermont?
At a wine tasting at a liquor store, you cannot have more than 4 bottles open at any one time in......New Jersey?
Stores cannot sell beer after 8pm and are required to have some sort of way of locking them up in.....Connecticut?
You cannot serve drinks in a bar unless you have a kettle of soup on the stove in the kitchen in.....Nebraska?
There are still dry counties where sale of any alcohol is illegal in......Kentucky, Tennessee, South Carolina, West Virginia?
In order to purchase a drink, you must be a member of a private club in.....numerous parishes (a sub-county division) in Texas?
At one time, you could not have more than a single drink at a time in...Vermont? (This was repealed only within the past decade - 2002-ish I think, but it made for a curious shot and a beer - the bartender would hold your beer, serve you the shot, then return your beer.)

Being kinda bored at work I dug up these on the liquor laws.

Anything that normalizes liquor laws for out-of-state visitors is good for Utah, said Steve Lindburg, general manager of a downtown hotel and a member of the state tourism board."People didn't understand. People felt isolated or even turned away," he said. "Now, that kind of becomes moot."Still, plenty of oddities remain among Utah's liquor laws. It is the only state that bans the sale of flavored malt beverages from grocery and convenience stores and is one of only a handful states where beer can contain no more than 3.2 percent alcohol by weight, or 4 percent by volume. Most beers contain 3.6 percent to 3.9 percent alcohol by weight. Bars and restaurants in Utah are allowed to serve full-strength beer if they buy it in bottles from the state liquor store."We should have real beer," said Kevin Frohmoder, who was sitting next to Morrison at No Name Saloon in Park City. "Why can't we all be one nation under God and do what everybody else does?"Happy hours remain illegal here, and ordering a double is also a no-no. No alcoholic drink can contain more than 2.5 ounces of liquor and in new restaurants, all cocktails must be mixed out of the view of customers.

http://www.standard.net/topics/news/2009/07/01/utah-bar-crawl-mark-end-liquor-restrictions

That quote is blatantly dishonest and is the type of things that furthers the myth. It's simply not true that Utah doesn't have beer over 4% ABV. What is true is that out of state producers cannot ship it to Utah in kegs since kegs are illegal in the state liquor stores. (Which doesn't mean that kegs are entirely illegal - see note below.)

Metered Dispensing
Utah law requires restaurants, clubs, on-premise banquet licensees, and airport lounges to use a metered dispensing system that is calibrated to dispense no more than 1.5 ounces of primary liquor in a mixed drink. Secondary alcoholic flavorings may then be added to a mixed drink as the recipe requires, not to exceed a total of 2.5 ounces of spirituous liquor.

http://www.alcbev.state.ut.us/Liquor_Laws/liquor_laws_affecting_visitors.html#wine_liquor_beer

It's no big deal as I'm not usually going out looking to get drunk and party in UT, but it's damn expensive when a mixed drink only has 1.5oz of 80ish proof booze in it. From my experience nationwide I've never seen anything close to the metering system other than maybe a bar using a jigger to keep costs down, even then the bar tenders usually pour a little extra into the glass.

Yes, the metering system is different from other states in that its use is mandated, however it's not unique as more restaurants and bars outside of Utah discover it's an excellent way to control costs and profit margin. BTW, the standard for a "shot" or "jigger" that is referred to in all the bartenders guides/recipe books is 1.5 oz. And the universal definition of a "drink" (like when your doctor says limit yourself to only 2 drinks per day) is 12oz of beer, 5 oz of wine, or 1.5 oz of 80 proof spirits, as those quantities all contain about the same amount of alcohol.

Oh, and regarding the free pour measurement that you're used to seeing in other states? A study conducted two years ago by a food and hospitality trade association discovered that over 75% of bartenders who free pour without measuring under serve by as much as 25% with the average being about 12%.

Note about Utah and kegs: an in-state producer can keg their own product for use on premise, at events, or sale to bars. And that product can be greater than 4% ABV.

 

[Patrick]

I'm kidding bored too. :roll:

Beer at 3.2%.

Totally off-topic, a co-worker from Quebec today commented on the fact that another Quebec coworker young teenaged kid was going to a mall in Ottawa (Ontario) with his girlfriend. I said to myself...oh man!!! The Quebecers mentioned as a joke that the kids went to the mall together to get a pack of condoms. I replied, impossible...you have to be 19 to buy condoms in Ontario. I had the co-worker going for maybe 4-5 seconds...really? Ah, perceptions.

For you Americans, Ontario is viewed as being pretty conservative. And yes, Beer and Liquor is also uniquely sold in Government run Liquor and Beer stores. There are a bunch of Toronto versus Montreal jokes that we build on old perceptions. Some of them probably go back to Prohibition.

 

[Admin]

Beer at 3.2%.

4.0% ABV, which is the standard of measure virtually everywhere else in the world. That 3.2% is by weight, which is a uniquely Utah measurement. And remember, that's not the limit on the beer sold in Utah, just the limit on the beer sold in groceries and convenience stores, gas stations, etc.

For you Americans, Ontario is viewed as being pretty conservative. And yes, Beer and Liquor is also uniquely sold in Government run Liquor and Beer stores.

And Quebec's situation is very similar to Utah's in that packaged liquor is only sold in SAQ stores owned and run by, you guessed it, the government of Quebec.

 

[Marc_C]

Beer at 3.2%.

We've discussed that one to death!
Besides, I'd rather have a flavorful 3.2% ABW than that marginally stronger swill like Kokanee or Molson that's produced in America's Hat. :stir:

 

[Patrick]

marginally stronger

3.2% versus 5% for most industrial produced Canadian beer (which I rarely drink anyway). Microbrewery are at a total different level. I'm sure that some European beer amateur is probably laughting at this discussion now. Q?

Brador (which was a Molson product (not even a micro) when I could buy in legally in Quebec at 18) was a nice 6.2%.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqkWBQpvQAc[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQepNi99rpQ[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Hr3FUsATHs[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQL0Q6EvdH0[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9W9NTEJOQrA[/youtube]

Argentinian version of a sexist beer commercial.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjUWx_ZKPlg[/youtube]

Yeah, Andes is a good beer but I found people in Argentinian generally prefer drink fernet when they go out.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wajm6isPwqA[/youtube]

And the last one is on me. Cheers.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLdA2PfwzTQ[/youtube]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[socal]

I dunno having spent some time (obviously not living) in SLC and having lived in PA (some odd laws too) I just can't seem to understand how you guys don't think the laws there are odd and lend themselves to visitors finding them to be inconvenient and just plane strange. It's one thing to have laws on where you can buy booze to go, it's another having all the strange rules about what I can drink when i go to a bar/restaurant/etc.

You're missing the point. It's not that Utah doesn't have odd liquor laws - it's that they are no more odd or strange than those in any other state. Because of decades of more restrictive laws, Utah rightfully earned the reputation of being highly restrictive and yes, the land of strange laws. The majority of these have been removed over the past decade, so now it's no more strange or bizarre than anywhere else.

Did you know that...
you cannot be on a dance floor holding an alcoholic beverage in ......Vermont?
At a wine tasting at a liquor store, you cannot have more than 4 bottles open at any one time in......New Jersey?
Stores cannot sell beer after 8pm and are required to have some sort of way of locking them up in.....Connecticut?
You cannot serve drinks in a bar unless you have a kettle of soup on the stove in the kitchen in.....Nebraska?
There are still dry counties where sale of any alcohol is illegal in......Kentucky, Tennessee, South Carolina, West Virginia?
In order to purchase a drink, you must be a member of a private club in.....numerous parishes (a sub-county division) in Texas?
At one time, you could not have more than a single drink at a time in...Vermont? (This was repealed only within the past decade - 2002-ish I think, but it made for a curious shot and a beer - the bartender would hold your beer, serve you the shot, then return your beer.)

But only the last really effects my ability to get a drink the rest are just funny laws that have never been removed but are likely not enforced or laws in places I don't plan on ever going and have WAY more to disagree with than their liquor laws (Kentucky, Tennessee, South Carolina, West Virginia)

Anything that normalizes liquor laws for out-of-state visitors is good for Utah, said Steve Lindburg, general manager of a downtown hotel and a member of the state tourism board."People didn't understand. People felt isolated or even turned away," he said. "Now, that kind of becomes moot."Still, plenty of oddities remain among Utah's liquor laws. It is the only state that bans the sale of flavored malt beverages from grocery and convenience stores and is one of only a handful states where beer can contain no more than 3.2 percent alcohol by weight, or 4 percent by volume. Most beers contain 3.6 percent to 3.9 percent alcohol by weight. Bars and restaurants in Utah are allowed to serve full-strength beer if they buy it in bottles from the state liquor store."We should have real beer," said Kevin Frohmoder, who was sitting next to Morrison at No Name Saloon in Park City. "Why can't we all be one nation under God and do what everybody else does?"Happy hours remain illegal here, and ordering a double is also a no-no. No alcoholic drink can contain more than 2.5 ounces of liquor and in new restaurants, all cocktails must be mixed out of the view of customers.

http://www.standard.net/topics/news/2009/07/01/utah-bar-crawl-mark-end-liquor-restrictions[/quote]

That quote is blatantly dishonest and is the type of things that furthers the myth. It's simply not true that Utah doesn't have beer over 4% ABV. What is true is that out of state producers cannot ship it to Utah in kegs since kegs are illegal in the state liquor stores. (Which doesn't mean that kegs are entirely illegal - see note below.)[/quote]

Not that we needed more proof but you're awfully defensive and it got in the way of you actually reading the quote. Check it again, it doesn't say that, in fact it specifically says the opposite.

Yes, the metering system is different from other states in that its use is mandated, however it's not unique as more restaurants and bars outside of Utah discover it's an excellent way to control costs and profit margin. BTW, the standard for a "shot" or "jigger" that is referred to in all the bartenders guides/recipe books is 1.5 oz. And the universal definition of a "drink" (like when your doctor says limit yourself to only 2 drinks per day) is 12oz of beer, 5 oz of wine, or 1.5 oz of 80 proof spirits, as those quantities all contain about the same amount of alcohol.

Oh, and regarding the free pour measurement that you're used to seeing in other states? A study conducted two years ago by a food and hospitality trade association discovered that over 75% of bartenders who free pour without measuring under serve by as much as 25% with the average being about 12%.

Note about Utah and kegs: an in-state producer can keg their own product for use on premise, at events, or sale to bars. And that product can be greater than 4% ABV.

"Yes, I'll have a martini please...." Tough to make one without 2.5oz of alcohol. Or, how would I order my regular "Double kettle and soda"? Point is you've got great skiing and crappy liquor laws. Cool with me now, but as a early 20 something would have been annoying.

 

[Marc_C]

marginally stronger

3.2% versus 5% for most industrial produced Canadian beer (which I rarely drink anyway). Microbrewery are at a total different level. I'm sure that some European beer amateur is probably laughting at this discussion now. Q?

You're not actually reading anything before posting, are you? Let's try it again...
3.2% in Utah is alcohol content by fricken WEIGHT and the 5% you keep quoting is alcohol content by VOLUME!. 3.2% by weight = 4.0% by volume. And most mass market, industrial produced beer in North America is 4.2% - 5.4% ABV, with the average being 4.8% ABV. That works out to needing about two extra sips with your 12oz of 4% to equal the alcohol content of 12oz of 4.8%. Most microbrews are between 5.8% and 7% ABV, depending on style and initial gravity.

 

[Marc_C]

But only the last really effects my ability to get a drink the rest are just funny laws that have never been removed but are likely not enforced or laws in places I don't plan on ever going and have WAY more to disagree with than their liquor laws (Kentucky, Tennessee, South Carolina, West Virginia)

Only the soup rule is a funny one that hasn't been removed. All the others directly affect your ability to get a drink. The dance floor law in VT was used to temporarily close a bar in Waitsfield that was having a disagreement with the town over noise issues. Don't ever think that these laws are never enforced.

Not that we needed more proof but you're awfully defensive and it got in the way of you actually reading the quote. Check it again, it doesn't say that, in fact it specifically says the opposite.

You should check it again. Overall it does say the opposite, but in a manner that really obfuscates the truth. The defensiveness is not over the laws - I'd love to see a lot more change (eg: the idiotic malt beverage in supermarkets ban was the trade-off for getting the private club law removed and max limit per drink increased.) - but weariness of people who don't live here constantly saying that you can't get a drink.

"Yes, I'll have a martini please...." Tough to make one without 2.5oz of alcohol.

You're joking, right? A martini has two ingredients* - as long as the proportion is correct, all that varies is the size of the drink. It's very easy to make a martini with 1.5 oz of gin or vodka - I do it every evening. I always measure and I use a standard jigger. If you wanted, you could make martinis in 1000 gal batches. (I have, BTW. We were trying to find alternate sourcing for our vermouth. I worked for 18 years in the alcoholic beverage industry, 4.5 years of which was on the bench top in R&D/Product Development, and have full bartender training.)

Or, how would I order my regular "Double kettle and soda"?

Order a shot of Kettle One, and a soda on the side. Proportion as you desire. Although a restaurant or bar with a decent bartender will proportion appropriately.

Point is you've got great skiing and crappy liquor laws.

Point is, you and a few others don't seem to allow bothersome facts to alter your misconceptions.

*: that is, a real martini has two ingredients. Any of these other fruity concoctions laughingly called a something-tini are merely mixed drinks served in a glass resembling a bird bath.

 

[Admin]

You should check it again. Overall it does say the opposite, but in a manner that really obfuscates the truth.

There's a simple explanation: piss-poor writing. In one sentence the author writes:

and is one of only a handful states where beer can contain no more than 3.2 percent alcohol by weight, or 4 percent by volume.

Then, two sentences later he/she contradicts himself/herself by writing:

Bars and restaurants in Utah are allowed to serve full-strength beer if they buy it in bottles from the state liquor store.

The first quote is patently false, then the second quote corrects the first.

 

[socal]

Point is you've got great skiing and crappy liquor laws.

Point is, you and a few others don't seem to allow bothersome facts to alter your misconceptions.

Sorta like you in your quote below? As you said "overall it does say the opposite" so you agree it's a fact but you won't let that get in your way of making an argument, then change the argument.

You should check it again. Overall it does say the opposite, but in a manner that really obfuscates the truth. The defensiveness is not over the laws - I'd love to see a lot more change (eg: the idiotic malt beverage in supermarkets ban was the trade-off for getting the private club law removed and max limit per drink increased.) - but weariness of people who don't live here constantly saying that you can't get a drink.

Ok, enough of this debate for me. I can grab my post skiing beer without a problem and it can be 2% or 5%, I don't care, either way I'm not gonna even get a buzz from it and that's not why I flew out there to begin with.

 

[Marc_C]

Sorta like you in your quote below? As you said "overall it does say the opposite" so you agree it's a fact but you won't let that get in your way of making an argument, then change the argument.

It's a fact that it was crappy writing, which apparently has confused you to the point of thinking that there's only 4% beer in Utah.