Vertical vs. Techical Terrain vs. Powder vs. $$$

[snowbird surfer]

The $700 is consistent with Canadian day cat skiing, but the odds of powder at Arpa are low given its latitude and the extreme volatile snowfall pattern very opposite in both regards to interior B.C.

If the helicopter at Portillo can get you to the Super C that’s probably worth it vs. a 3+ hour hike above Roca Jack.

I can’t imagine being satisfied with 9-12k vert over the course of a day, regardless of the price. The Stowe 4Runner yields 12+k per hour midweek. Many locals enjoy 20k by 10 am then go about their day.

I was lucky enough to ski with the mica heli outfit years ago. I was placed in a fast moving group and we comfortably blew through 20k before lunch.

The arp offering reminds me of expensive tasting menus at “instagram worthy” hot spots that leave you hungry and heading to a quality pizza joint after paying the bill.

 

[snowbird surfer]

Yes. It appears all the areas are making progress; Valle even opened its backside today. Again, these are initial openings, so they take longer: dig out lifts, create surface lift tracks, build catwalks, create pistes/tracks, etc.



I thought all 4 areas are worthwhile and each can easily consume a day. The weakest is El Colorado - I am not into the front-side snow fence aesthetic, but there is good terrain on the backside.





That is a reasonable rate for a day of cat skiing, and 10-12k vertical with orientation is industry standard. Again, I cannot comment on the operation, but it seems like a worthwhile experience.

The heli operation at Portillo looks interesting, and runs were not crazy $ for powder and views of Aconcagua LINK . Given the strong snowfall to date in Portillo, it might be an alternative: half day lift/half day heli.



CMG Purcells: $1550 USD/day
Eagle Pass Revelstoke $1900/day

Vertical per Day: 12-15k at BC heli ops Eagle, Stellar, Selkirk-Tangiers, etc

Can’t compare cat skiing in sun/wind affected high density costal snow to heli blower in the Purcells.

Tony, would you happen to know the average density for Portillo/las Lenas?

My suggestion illustrates my revealed preference for high quality resort + BC access + opportunistic heli add on. To each their own!

 

[ChrisC]

I can’t imagine being satisfied with 9-12k vert over the course of a day, regardless of the price. The Stowe 4Runner yields 12+k per hour midweek. Many locals enjoy 20k by 10 am then go about their day.

I take it that Snowcat skiing is not your vibe.

And I might avoid La Grave - or even Mont Blanc: Chamonix's Aiguille du Midi or Courmayeur's Monte Bianco Cable Car . Those are not high vertical days. Alps couloirs limit vertical. (The only place one can just hammer extreme vertical is Verbier (Mont Gele, Fort, Gentianes/Jumbo cable cars)).

 

[snowbird surfer]

I take it that Snowcat skiing is not your vibe.

And I might avoid La Grave - or even Mont Blanc: Chamonix's Aiguille du Midi or Courmayeur's Monte Bianco Cable Car . Those are not high vertical days. Alps couloirs limit vertical. (The only place one can just hammer extreme vertical is Verbier (Mont Gele, Fort, Gentianes/Jumbo cable cars)).

Yep, not a snowcat, cat - yet. Favorite setup is lift access + slack/side/BC. Grand Montets without the summit lift was actually perfect in April. I enjoyed a tour or two up Logan glacier plus lots of lift accessed riding. Solitude is excellent and highly underrated for this as well. Can ride powderhorn, lap cathedral cirque then boot fantasy ridge or head out to Wolverine cirque via HTH or Millicent boot pack. It’s even possible to ski argenta or god’s lawnmower before lifts open if staying in BCC! Cervinia/Zermatt is appealing because it also offers fun inbounds and easy access to the breithorn.

Portillo looks equally appealing! Alas, no rooms at the inn until 9/12.

 

[snowbird surfer]

Yep, not a snowcat, cat - yet. Favorite setup is lift access + slack/side/BC. Grand Montets without the summit lift was actually perfect in April. I enjoyed a tour or two up Logan glacier plus lots of lift accessed riding. Solitude is excellent and highly underrated for this as well. Can ride powderhorn, lap cathedral cirque then boot fantasy ridge or head out to Wolverine cirque via HTH or Millicent boot pack. It’s even possible to ski argenta or god’s lawnmower before lifts open if staying in BCC! Cervinia/Zermatt is appealing because it also offers fun inbounds and easy access to the breithorn.

Portillo looks equally appealing! Alas, no rooms at the in until 9/12.

I should add Monterosa ski to the list above. Incredible terrain/side/BC access/views all with near zero skier density. MR with snow is likely tops. Sadly, snow is not consistent and south facing aspect can warm quickly, as you know.

Given declining snowfall, it seems to me that the optionality of early retirement and a fist full of dollars is the only way to truly get the most from ski country!

 

[Tony Crocker]

Favorite setup is lift access + slack/side/BC.

In terms of bang for the buck or favorable ratio of skiing to grunt work, the Alps are by far the best overall destination region. You may need to hire guides for navigation and local expertise on snowpack safety/conditions, but still a good value for what you can get.

proceed to Portillo and rip the super c in between lift accessed slay fest.”

Not on the same day unless you are the likes of Greg Hill. For 99% of skiers, the Super C will consume your entire day or you will need rest after climbing and skiing it. That's ChrisC on Palmyra or me in Highlands Bowl. How many laps can snowbird surfer do on Highlands Bowl in the same day? So maybe if you're in Portillo for a whole week, you might devote one day to the Super C. But on a 3-4 day trip ChrisC is right, there's plenty of interesting terrain to keep most people engaged.

I can’t imagine being satisfied with 9-12k vert over the course of a day, regardless of the price.

For either cat or heli that is almost always what you will get at a day operation where you have the morning safety briefing and transceiver drill, plus the guides want to see how people ski before they step up pace or terrain. So i figured out right away (see 1997 and 1998 below) that I preferred a multiday lodge based operation.

As one who has counted vertical since inception, perhaps I can provide some perspective. Hopefully it will be useful as I suspect snowbird surfer is no older than I was when I started the Canadian trips at age 44 in 1997. This period coincided with the growth spurt of mechanized backcountry operations in B.C. so I got to try many of them. I was hooked immediately because my first two experiences were outstanding:
Island Lake 1997
TLH Heli 1998
I think both the 3 days at Island Lake and the two at TLH cost around $1,400 back then. There was a $400 surcharge for extra vertical at TLH. When the guides warned us midday that might happen, one of us clients rolled up his sleeve and said, "Stick the needle in. I want some more."

I sampled both cat and heli operations for another decade+. As of 2009 I had 35 days and 410K vertical of snowcat and 19 days and 370K vertical of heli. So there was a gap in vertical per day in the ballpark with the price gap. But in 2010 I discovered Mustang Snowcat, where I took 10 tours, skiing 31 days at average 16K vertical. And Mustang has an exceptional microclimate averaging 575 inches snowfall at its 5,700 foot lodge plus solid advanced/expert terrain quality. At that point I was done with heli in Canada though did some more in Alaska and Iceland.

My vertical page also lists every day I have skied as much as 15K per day in powder by a fairly strict definition excluding traverses and runouts.
There are 17 via heli (55% of 31) and 21 (17 Mustang, 4 Island Lake) via snowcat (21% of 99). The remainder represent less than 1% of lift served ski days, which might explain why people are wiling to pay $$$ for cat or heli, especially if their schedules are not flexible.

optionality of early retirement and a fist full of dollars is the only way to truly get the most from ski country!

For powder that is true for most people. The exceptions live within daytrip distance of the highest snowfall areas. As I've mentioned before my early retirement seasons ages 58-66 were my peak ski years in terms of all of the parameters in the title of this thread.

 

[snowbird surfer]

Excellent info and perspective.

I’m good for 2-3 highland bowls plus laps on temerity. I was lucky enough to have first tracks on highland December of 24? That was the epic early season IIRC. My daughter and I flew out in a powder fever for 4 great early December days. They opened highland on day 3 of our trip. When they dropped the rope line we basically ran for it. Can’t remember the climb time but 37 minutes in a flop sweat sounds right. She was happy after the first lap but I convinced her we needed more and up we went. She was cooked after that. I told her to ride temerity and I went for a third lap then joined her. Good memories.

Inbounds lift accessed powder can be tough due to competition and crowding. I’ve had huge days midweek at Stowe (40-55k) and solitude (40+) but these days are the exception. Powderhorn is quite slow and much of the best riding requires uphill traverses (cathedral) and gate entrance. The resort is also very cautious since management changed. 10 years ago they dropped the lower gates and had fantasy ridge open quite often. Now fantasy remains closed much of the year despite being littered with towers.

In 2000 I had a season pass to snowbird and probably skied the mountain 80 days - some were very big. Back then you could sprint up the canyon at 50 mph, park anywhere and get lots of vertical in 3 hrs as there were no lines. It was possible to ride the same tram car back then. Harder to do now as the ride is only 8 minutes and there’s inevitably a line at the bottom. Nowadays, the only high vert snowbird powder days seem to be when April storms come in.

My family was lucky enough to have excellent high vert powder at telluride over presidents week on two consecutive years. Think 10+ runs on milkrun/bushwacker/spiral stairs before heading deeper into the report.

For some reason Jackson hole during MLK week is relatively empty and often produces multiple powder days - even two years ago when the town was on suicide watch for lack of December snowfall. Powder laps off the super high speed Teton lift can easily yield 10-12k per hour if you stick to kemerer. Then head to thunder which is also high yield through riverton bowl.

Then there’s the biggest powder days of my life, made possible by the march 2024, 80 inch dump at Zermatt. Day 1 - 17 runs on the rothorn face. Day 2 - another 15+ on hohtali. Powder + high speed lifts + Low/no skier density + hypervolt massage gun + naproxen 440 bid made this possible. If you’ve read some of my prior posts about Zermatt you’ll know that I can’t shake that memory…I’ve chased it two more times to no avail.

These above scenarios are memorable because they are rare and require focused storm chasing which can include cognitive overload, an expanded budget and physical exhaustion

 

[ChrisC]

Not on the same day unless you are the likes of Greg Hill. For 99% of skiers, the Super C will consume your entire day or you will need rest after climbing and skiing it. That's ChrisC on Palmyra or me in Highlands Bowl. How many laps can snowbird surfer do on Highlands Bowl in the same day? So maybe if you're in Portillo for a whole week, you might devote one day to the Super C. But on a 3-4 day trip ChrisC is right, there's plenty of interesting terrain to keep most people engaged.

Palmyra is significantly longer, higher, and more exposed than Aspen Highlands Bowl.

Altitude impacts really kick in at 12k ft+ (High --> Very High threshold), and I always try to use some Ibuprofen (prevent headaches, inflammation, placebo).

However, I don't necessarily recommend it. My brother and I sometimes derisively refer to Palmyra as "The World's Highest Mogul Field"; it's not, and one can avoid traffic and find fresh snow by skiing the couloir to skier's right. However, the effort-reward ratio is out of whack.


Here is a very error-laden list that my sycophant ChatGPT constructed.

Basically, I am most interested in Ski Vertical output versus Vertical Hike required. I want this ratio high, like perhaps a minimum of 2:1 and more like 3 or 4-to-1. I know a lot of the below measurements are wrong, but they are "good enough" to guide choices.

I will skip some excellent, high-profile lines if trade-offs/ratios are not great with time/vertical/hiking/etc. Some lines I have skipped: Portillo's Super C, St. Anton's Valluga, and a bunch more I cannot even recall.


Top 20 U.S. Lift-Served Hike-to Terrain

Note: Pure rage bait.

 

[ChrisC]

Palmyra is an iconic hike and line, but for me - it's a mountaineering season-ender - if even a requirement.

Again, its gate closes at 1 PM to give you an idea of what's involved. Multiple laps?

If you want to ski Telluride's Hike To and SlackCountry terrain efficiently, I do 2 out of the 3 hikes in red. Palmyra serves as an excellent distraction for most. Gold Hill and Bald Mountain can be lapped. Bear Creek concludes in town, and is best followed by après-ski. Not really lapable.

 

[snowbird surfer]

Some AI slop in there. Fantasy ridge has much more exposure than Baldy/Gold Hill/Expert chutes and many more… The hike to access the ridge includes bolted cables which serve as fixed lines on the “crux” of the knife edge booter. Prior to tower installation the skiing off FR could be as “comfortable” or as gripped as you like. Since towers, they hardly open and lines are filled with debris. Sad.

Also, the hike to pipeline is NOT 15-25 minutes .

 

[snowbird surfer]

Palmyra is significantly longer, higher, and more exposed than Aspen Highlands Bowl.

Altitude impacts really kick in at 12k ft+ (High --> Very High threshold), and I always try to use some Ibuprofen (prevent headaches, inflammation, placebo).

However, I don't necessarily recommend it. My brother and I sometimes derisively refer to Palmyra as "The World's Highest Mogul Field"; it's not, and one can avoid traffic and find fresh snow by skiing the couloir to skier's right. However, the effort-reward ratio is out of whack.


Here is a very error-laden list that my sycophant ChatGPT constructed.

Basically, I am most interested in Ski Vertical output versus Vertical Hike required. I want this ratio high, like perhaps a minimum of 2:1 and more like 3 or 4-to-1. I know a lot of the below measurements are wrong, but they are "good enough" to guide choices.

I will skip some excellent, high-profile lines if trade-offs/ratios are not great with time/vertical/hiking/etc. Some lines I have skipped: Portillo's Super C, St. Anton's Valluga, and a bunch more I cannot even recall.


Top 20 U.S. Lift-Served Hike-to Terrain

View attachment 52496

Note: Pure rage bait.

I fell for the bait

 

[ChrisC]

Yes, Fantasy Ridge and Headwaters are some of the more exposed hikes... You likely want to have your skis strapped onto your pack (vs. your shoulder). Others require it for the length of the hike.

I am roughly concerned with this ratio: Ski: Hike. Again, not looking for accuracy, just scale of magnitude. Basically, if it's 1:1, I am not hiking.

 

[jimk]

I don't have a big hike-to resume as my cardio-vascular fitness ain't what it used to be and I didn't ski extensively in the west until past age 60, but from list above I've done Breck-Lake Chutes, Taos-West Ridge, BC-Stone Creek Chutes, Telluride Gold Hill Chute 6, and Snowbird-Baldy Summit. Snowbird-Baldy was the most difficult of those. Two that I haven't done, but have contemplated are Highland Bowl and Snowbird-Pipeline. Don't get many chances to try Highland Bowl, but I have done it from the snowcat drop-in a few times. Still aspire under the right circumstances to try to hike to the top, but my window is closing on that due to age. Snowbird-Pipeline is a bitch of a climb and often includes a hairy little downclimb at the top, so that one will have to wait for another lifetime My son says it's pretty manageable once you get into the chute.

 

[Tony Crocker]

@jimk:
How does your son compare Pipeline to Main Chute and Little Chute?

I’ve never contemplated Pipeline for the reason stated by ChrisC: that hike looks way too long.

 

[ChrisC]

My family was lucky enough to have excellent high vert powder at telluride over presidents week on two consecutive years. Think 10+ runs on milkrun/bushwacker/spiral stairs before heading deeper into the report.

That's not quite my strategy, but Chair 9/Plunge Lift is the obvious place to start. (But it's also the first place to leave, as gets hammered after 1.5-2 hours without going deep into woods. Locals will also take laps here and then go to work, but are less likely to ski other sectors).

My Telluride Powder Day looks something like this:

• Start at Chair 8/Town Lift. Put skis in line by 7 AM. Other lifts will put you behind first chair on Ch9/Plunge. My brother literally knows the preferences of other local Telluride skiers (by outfit) and where they go - so you are either in front of them or behind for 2nd/3rd/etc tracks.
  • Ski fast runs! 2x This means no moguls, and focus on powder-covered groomers like Bushwacker and Plunge.
  • Ski bumps! 1x. Maybe Mammoth-Stairs-Lower Plunge
  • Ski trees! 2x. Almost all the woods between trails on face are now gladed, some wider than others. Lots of untouched
• Leave Chair 9 by 10/10:30 AM to Chair 6 Apex.
  • Lap Apex (Sully's Remote, Chongos, Happy Thoughts), paying strict attention to gates to Gold Hill/Prospect Bowl Ch 12/14.
• If 12" or less, gates open at 11am-ish due to control work. If 16-18" or more, these lifts typically will not open.
• Next, Gold Hill 1x - on my favorite line there. Possibly skip.
• Then, Prospect Bowl - play on Hike-To's, Trees, hidden glades, and catch Bald Mt hike-to opening (noon?).
• Early afternoon - the steep areas into the creekbed off Chair 10/12.
• Usually, skico has been keeping Revelation Bowl closed on a powder day (8"+ IDKW), but it's saved for the next day (although it's small).

The above typically allows you to nearly find first tracks/untracked line throughout the day.

If Ch 12/14 do not open, you just continue the above on day 2. Other hiking areas will be open on a staggered schedule: Gold Hill & Black Iron. Just watch for them. Or Revelation Bowl. Any big storm 12-18' mostly from NW can offer a staggered 2.5 days of first tracks if you watch the opening schedules.

Therefore, I do not recommend just high-speed laps on Chair 9, but one could do far worse. And the vertical per-lift ride is high with minimal waits.

 

[snowbird surfer]

Awsome post. We roughly flowed through your phased plan with the addition of two milk runs. If you can go full throttle top to bottom with no stops, you can squeeze out extra powder laps. I’ve noticed most skiers stop to celebrate or rest during their runs and miss out big time. That’s what chairlifts are for.

Re: revelation bowl, small, relatively flat, quickly tracked. Perhaps best as catnip draw skiers from more interesting parts of the mountain. Also, when soft Telluride bumps are the best around and need multiple laps!

 

[ChrisC]

Then there’s the biggest powder days of my life, made possible by the march 2024, 80 inch dump at Zermatt. Day 1 - 17 runs on the rothorn face. Day 2 - another 15+ on hohtali.

Typically, with this much snow in the Alps (200 cm new), you are screwed. 100 cm = desirable lifts closed for 1-2 days. Will winds destroy new snow?

This year, France had above-average snowfall after a very dry December, creating a significant avalanche risk for the season. I complained a bit about Ste. Foy patrol recommending terrain closures, and my time at La Grave/Southern Alps was negatively impacted with new snow (50cm+) keeping guided groups in trees, ridges, open faces, but preventing access to its famed couloirs. Excellent skiing! But with restrictions. I was hoping for some valley-floor long 2-3k vertical couloirs.


Zermatt/Monterosa.
I debated going here in March/April 2024. However, there were issues: too much snow, access cutoff, snow levels fluctuating, etc. I chose to ski the Dolomites instead. New snow, but less crazy amounts/weather. LINK

April 1st 2024 - 3 dead in Zermatt due to nearly inbounds avalanche.

US teenager among three killed in avalanche near Swiss resort of Zermatt

Police say they have yet to identify a man and woman also killed in avalanche on Monday

www.theguardian.com

Monterosa - Champoluc cut off in March 2024

Tunnel-Burying Avalanche and Snowfall Cuts Off Several Villages in the Aosta Valley, Italy

On March 3 and 4, several villages in the Aosta Valley in Italy were cut off from civilization after an avalanche covered the entrance to a road tunnel at Gaby. In addition, several regional roads had to be closed out of precaution. The avalanche danger has been elevated for several days as the...

snowbrains.com

Rothorn
Agree. Did not materialize this year (25/26) during my visit.
With the new 2020, 11-minute Gondola, laps are easy on both the Face - YELLOW.
And even the upper bowl is somewhat worthwhile - ORANGE.
You can see the entire face/lines, and they dump you on easy groomed returns. Relatively straightforward.
Issue: faces west - snow quality. Not a ton of snowfall.

Stockhorn-Hohtalli
I don't think one can get as much vertical as you suggest.

YELLOW - Yes, you can lap this area. Especially areas highlighted in YELLOW. However, entrances are rollover/chutes and need some scouting.

ORANGE - Requires taking both trams; your total lift ride time is quite high (similar to Verbier, La Grave, Andermatt, Monterosa, etc). Yes, trams run fast (7 min and 4 min each), but not continuously. Given the tram operator's nonchalance, I found each tram lap (the stairs, waits, etc.) took at least 20+ minutes. Given the terrain features/scouting/avy avoidance, coundtrips were typically 30-40 min. Zero crowds, all powder, but you are not lapping a High-Speed ski-on gondola/chair. However, one could clear 3,500 vertical ft per lap / 7k per hour.

Breithorn / Pollux

I assume you are skiing on its north Face after a skin? --> Schwarztor?

I have not skied it, but it's described as the Vallee Blanche of Zermatt. Assume there are enough tracks to avoid the worst glacial obstacles. I believe Tony completed the off-piste route.

Schwarztor | Zermatt

Schwarztor | Zermatt

zermatt.swiss

There are also heli-drop days from Gressoney/Champoluc to combine Zermatt + Monterosa in one day:

 

[snowbird surfer]

Regarding Hohtalli - lap Gant. Fast/efficient. And yes, scout the drops on looker left of the ridge from the cable car. Can average 10k/hr all day.

Similar efficiency to Rothorn face - if there is snow.

 

[snowbird surfer]

I skied the schwarztor twice over 5 days. First with a guide. Second time solo the following day. First time through we had fresh tracks the whole way. Apparently we were the first party to ski it with a guide in a couple of years due to lack of snow in past seasons. The skiing is fun/fine but relatively mellow. A few 30 degree pitches here and there. The main issues are route finding and crevasse danger. I paid careful attention with an eye on returning the following day. For round 2, around 4 pm, I skinned and skied the breithorn then toured over to the black gate. Absolutely no one on either the breithorn, the plateau or the glacier route. Wild, serene, eerie, stupefying… a beatific vision for this believer.

 

[ChrisC]

Yes, Tony humorously and slightly derisively refers to Telluride as a 3-day mountain. But it's quite easy to make it a 5-day powder fest using timing, sidecountry, and Silverton, though bases are typically only deep enough in February, March, and early April:

• A decent storm in Telluride can extend into almost 1-2.5 days of fresh tracks due to staggered terrain openings (lift pods + hike-to's),
• If the stars are truly aligning, one hopefully has scheduled a Thursday at Silverton (after its Mon-Wed closure), and there is more fresh snow/first tracks from a Sunday-Wednesday storm.
• If not, still schedule a day at Silverton. Add 2 heli-drops to Silverton, and you are guaranteed fresh snow.
• Plus, you still have Bear Creek with 4,000 vertical feet of descent into town, which requires only a 15-minute hike.

Yes, Telluride does not get as much snow as some mountains. But due to its remote location, sidecountry, and surrounding mountains like Silverton, you can find fresh snow for quite a few days after a storm with relatively little effort, but a good amount of local knowledge.

Jackson Hole functions somewhat similarly: You can ski powder for a few days after a storm, since it has

• Jackson Hole ski area and Hike-to's
• Sidecountry: Cody, Rock Springs, other gates, etc
• Teton Pass
• Grand Targhee

Awsome post. We roughly flowed through your phased plan with the addition of two milk runs. If you can go full throttle top to bottom with no stops, you can squeeze out extra powder laps. I’ve noticed most skiers stop to celebrate or rest during their runs and miss out big time. That’s what chairlifts are for.

To me, early Milk Run is a mistake. Yes, it's super fun and fast. But I save Chair 7/Coonskin runs for late day/home runs - North Chute/Coonskin/Milk Run combos. I see some people coming down it and think, "You have a big liftline now."

My issue: you get dumped into the Town of Telluride on either the gondola (low-capacity/commuters) or slow lifts. And you are still clearing out some lines from 9-930 even 10 AM. You have just given up first tracks on some Chair 9 runs, Chair 6 runs (both higher altitude/more snow/better quality), or you are going to miss an opening of gates for Gold Hill/Prospect Bowl. It's a poor trade-off.

I don't always agree with my brother on things, but we pretty much silently ski together in agreement/without argument on the same plan. The debates are minor: what chute, A or B? Trees yet? Minor sequencing. He prefers Mount Baldy Hikes; I'd rather do the Gold Hill chutes. Chair 9-same. Chair 6 Apex: he likes Sully's Remote (far skier's right); I like Hidden Chongo's cliff or Happy Thoughts cliff band.