Wachusett, Hunter, Snow and Skier Visits

I don't buy any of those numbers for starters.
That is certainly a possibility. In my rain vs. snow exercise, I looked for a location in the Catskills and found East Jewett, elevation 1,950. It had scattered data (aggregate about 25 years) averaging 81 inches snowfall. I'd be interested in Harvey's 2 cents here.
 
Why should Hunter, a higher mountain, be that much less than the other Catskill areas?

Hunter clearly gets less snowfall than Windham, Belle and Plattekill.

Elevation isn't everything, especially in NY. Snow Ridge summit is ~2000, and it's number one for snowfall in the state.

What is the terrain like to the west and northwest? Gore (3600') gets less snow than McCauley (2300'), because Gore is blocked to the northwest.

This map doesn't precisely represent summit snowfall but it gives a general idea of what I am saying:


Another key factor is mountain reporting. Whiteface is known for using summit snowfall for annual totals. That has a big impact. Other mountains use base or mid totals.

FWIW Tony's method of adding 20" to our 12-month number (~125") for Gore is true BS. It may make him feel better for some statistical reason, but it's not based on the data. Gore is one of the only mountains I know of that accurately markets it snowfall.

 
FWIW Tony's method of adding 20" to our 12-month number (~125") for Gore is true BS.
Does Gore report snowfall when the area is not open? Is Harvey getting ALL November and April snowfall since he started collecting data in 2008? My indexing method to Killington would be flawed if (proportion of Gore's Nov and Apr snowfall to Killington's) is less than (proportion of Gore's Dec to Mar snowfall to Killington's). The elevation difference could create such a flaw given the massive rain incidence in the shoulder months.

If I read that color coded map right, nobody in the Catskills gets over 100 inches despite the quote:
Three other upstate areas record heavy snow accumulations, averaging from 100 to 120 inches.......The Catskills in Ulster, Delaware and Sullivan counties
The map shows Catskill snowfall declining west to east, thus maybe we can say Plattekill and Belleayre are in the 100-120 range but Windham and Hunter are under 100?

But it's possible that map doesn't capture microclimates. Since Harvey has extensive experience in the Catskills as well as Gore, does he think anyone in the Catskills gets as much snow or more than Gore?
 
Does Gore report snowfall when the area is not open? Is Harvey getting ALL November and April snowfall since he started collecting data in 2008? My indexing method to Killington would be flawed if (proportion of Gore's Nov and Apr snowfall to Killington's) is less than (proportion of Gore's Dec to Mar snowfall to Killington's). The elevation difference could create such a flaw given the massive rain incidence in the shoulder months.

Gore does not report snowfall out of season.

I check the Gore report every day. Occasionally there is snowfall that goes unreported, and I add it myself, listing the source of the report. If the mountain is closed, I add it as well, from my own observation or data from another skier, who skis every day. It may not be perfect, but it's much more accurate than randomly adding 20 inches. The largest snowfall for Gore out of season was 7 inches, several years ago and it was a huge deal. One week after closing, and many people were earning it. That's going back to 2008.

I don't know about Killington. It's likely very little gets missed in the spring because they are open until June. They open early too, but I could see 10 inches falling before opening day that may not get reported. I don't watch Killington closely so this is only speculation.

The difference IMO is orographics of which there is (almost) zero at Gore. Gore can get that kind of enhancement when a storm comes from the due south, up the Hudson Valley. That storm track is very unlikely to deliver snow outside of the season.
 
Belleayre’s brochure quote is 140, which James seems to think is reasonable.

Killington I’m sure has measured every inch of November and April snowfall for decades. That is the reason I use it to index several NE areas which don’t do that. Harvey is hands on at Gore and I suggested a reason (altitude/rain incidence) that my indexing method might be flawed there. So I think we are done with that part of the discussion.

But is it reasonable that Gore gets less snow than Belleayre and Plattekill? This is the question I keep asking Harvey given his extensive experience in both regions.
 
But is it reasonable that Gore gets less snow than Belleayre and Plattekill? This is the question I keep asking Harvey given his extensive experience in both regions.

I ski/follow Gore and the Catskills differently. I check the Gore snow report every day, and compare it to my porch (4 miles away) if I am in town. I also ask locals/friends about accuracy of those reports.

In the Cats, I'm a storm chaser, so I know from watching events, who gets what and how they compare, but I don't know about the accuracy of the annual total.

I also watch the radar. Lake effect is extremely rare at Hunter, and rare at Windham.
 
I ski/follow Gore and the Catskills differently.
After skiing these places almost exclusively for decades you have no opinion who gets more snow???

I have been involved in evaluating "brochure quotes" for areas where I do not collect formal data. The people who know whether brochure quotes are realistic are locals who ski these places regularly. Thus my persistence in this thread. :eusa-wall:

From what I see here, you NY region locals seem OK with both Hunter's 71 and Belleayre's 140. There is logic that Catskill snowfall would decline NW to SE but by 50% is a lot.
 
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After skiing these places almost exclusively for decades you have no opinion who gets more snow???

I have been involved in evaluating "brochure quotes" for areas where I do not collect formal data. The people who know whether brochure quotes are realistic are locals who ski these places regularly. Thus my persistence in this thread. :eusa-wall:

From what I see here, you NY region locals seem OK with both Hunter's 71 and Belleayre's 140. There is logic that Catskill snowfall would decline NW to SE but by 50% is a lot.
no one is more skeptical about reporting then me , but i might have to agree with those numbers... I have seen first hand the diff between Platt and Bell and Hunter . This is especially pronounced with a North/Northwest flow..ie lake effect... with a regular "nor easter" the differences are much less between all of the cats..
 
I have seen first hand the diff between Platt and Bell and Hunter . This is especially pronounced with a North/Northwest flow..ie lake effect... with a regular "nor easter" the differences are much less between all of the cats..
This is the type of insight I'm looking for. I would not have thought the Catskills were close enough for Ontario lake effect, but with the right direction (NW) and more orographic uplift than Tug Hill I can see the possibility. I would guess the western wilderness part of the Adirondacks would get a lot of snow from Lake Ontario. Unfortunately Whiteface and Gore are in the shadow of those.
 
I would not have thought the Catskills were close enough for Ontario lake effect, but with the right direction (NW) and more orographic uplift than Tug Hill I can see the possibility
When Plattekill receives snow originating from Lake Ontario, I recall a few times reading the words "rogue bands of lake effect," which would seem to indicate that specific conditions need to line up along with a bit of luck. Such a shame that the only people in the Tug Hill region who benefit from all that snow are slednecks.
 
Hunter clearly gets less snowfall than Windham, Belle and Plattekill.

This seems a bit odd to me. Windham and Hunter are practically co-located - maybe 6-7 miles from Windham summit to Hunter West? I would not think more than 10-15% percent.

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I never thought the Catskills received much lake effect snow. Likely after the Nor'easter moves through, you can get NW winds adding to totals.

I found that lake effect snow would barely reach Binghamton, with more accumulation in Cortland/Greek Peak, Song/Labrador, and even more in Syracuse. The Binghamton Airport sits on a plateau above the city and receives more snow than the Triple Cities; consequently, winter flights are often canceled. Syracuse was considered the safest airport.

The only difference I remember is that the Catskills received more snow than the Berkshires. However, for fewer crowds, Catamount or Belleayre were often better - especially since they have lots of parallel runs, and a little skating to a boundary trail is much better. Assume almost everything at Hunter gets groomed.

Whiteface or Gore are the best in the state. NY state/ORDA has improved them after many years of benign neglect. I have a friend who grew up in Keene Valley, NY, so that I could make it up that way. Whiteface has not changed too much - it now features nicer lifts (gondola). Gore added numerous new pods, lifts and glades. Likely more fun than Vermont on a weekend.
 
I notice Jewett with its 81 inches on that map ChrisC posted.

Windham and Hunter are practically co-located - maybe 6-7 miles from Windham summit to Hunter West?
Yes that's what a Google Earth ruler says. Belleayre is 15 miles SW of Hunter and Plattekill is 20 miles west of Windham. Is that enough for double the snowfall? The argument in favor is that Belleayre and Plattekill top out around 3,300 feet and I can't find anything between them and Lake Ontario over 2,000.
 
I notice Jewett with its 81 inches on that map ChrisC posted.


Yes that's what a Google Earth ruler says. Belleayre is 15 miles SW of Hunter and Plattekill is 20 miles west of Windham. Is that enough for double the snowfall? The argument in favor is that Belleayre and Plattekill top out around 3,300 feet and I can't find anything between them and Lake Ontario over 2,000.
You answered your own question
There is nothing between the lake and the western edge of the cats.
I can’t tell you how many times I have driven to Platte and have had zero snow on the way and then all of a sudden a quarter a mile from the base lodge boom there’s 6 inches of snow
 
This seems a bit odd to me. Windham and Hunter are practically co-located - maybe 6-7 miles from Windham summit to Hunter West? I would not think more than 10-15% percent.

I know the least about Windham, maybe they are close to Hunter in snowfall.

Six to seven miles can be significant. What other mountains are close with differences in snow? How far apart are Jay and Sutton? Park City and Alta?

Jason is right about Plattekill, the topography is favorable.
 
Six to seven miles can be significant. What other mountains are close with differences in snow? How far apart are Jay and Sutton? Park City and Alta?
How about Cannon and Loon? Or Stowe and Smuggs?

Massanutten, Wintergreen, and Bryce are pretty close together in northern VA. Fair to say that not only are snow totals often different during the rare snowstorm, wet bulb conditions can vary enough that Bryce can make snow when Massanutten and/or Wintergreen can't. Bryce is at lower elevation but is in a "cold sink."
 
Windham and Hunter are very similar in snowfall. Sometimes Windham will do a little better on a persistent northeast wind because they sit on the north eastern edge of the Catskills. They can get a little bit of orographic snow in that situation.
 
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