What Season Would be Complete Without East vs. West?

[Harvey]

But living here for a few seasons would give you a sense that, if you're willing to go for it, you might understand more our Eastern point of view. East isn't inferior...it's simply different.

That was not the point of my earlier comments, but since Patrick brought it up again...
1) The largest resorts of East are smaller in scale than what, 50+ areas in the West, and smaller by a factor of 10 to the largest ones.
2) Lift-served sustained steeps top out at 33 degrees (Paradise).
3) Terrain is less diverse. Almost no high alpine and only an elite handful have meaningful glade skiing.
4) And then of course we have the rain/freeze/thaw conditions that typically make conditions marginal about 1/3 of the time.
5) Powder is IMHO the equalizer that sometimes elevates eastern skiing to be comparable to other ski regions. Since terrain is on average less interesting and diverse, I would be more powder-centric living in the East than I am here. I was content for years with advance scheduled skiing due to Mammoth's vast terrain and consistent snow conditions.

The "apples and oranges" description applies to West vs. Alps, depends on whether you think snow conditions or scale of terrain is more important. If, like Patrick and me, you think both are important, you want to spend some time skiing both. The rest of it is one's personal geographic reality. Living where I do, Europe is way more expensive and inconvenient. If I lived equidistant the ratio between the two might be fairly close. So the northeasterners make the best of what's close and convenient to them, and some of them are very good at it. But as I theorized in another thread, put them in the Midwest and I know where the vast majority of their destination trips would be.

.

I have to admit skibum has a point. But you gotta love Patrick's passion, fighting the good fight. Right on!

What I want to know is how does Tony define:

meaningful glade skiing.

 

[Geoff]

3) Terrain is less diverse. Almost no high alpine and only an elite handful have meaningful glade skiing.

Any eastern mountain that gets 220+" per year has outstanding glade skiing with excellent snow preservation. Killington, Pico, Sugarbush, Mad River Glen, Stowe, Smuggs, Jay Peak, Sugarloaf. I'm most familiar with Killington. There is a line through the trees between virtually every trail. The trees are completely ignored by 95% of the customer base. It doesn't require much creativity to be skiing untracked lines days after the last storm. In tight trees, you really don't need oh-my-gosh steeps to have a good time and even low-intermediate pitch in the trees can be plenty entertaining with 6" of untracked snow on it. I usually average around 50-60 days per year. On a good 20 of them, the cut trails are just a means to get to the powder in the trees. For another 10, I'm more interested in working on my tan in the spring conditions.

As I said earlier in this thread. I'm a recreational skier. I'm completely entertained with eastern skiing as long as I'm not banished to groomed snowmaking trails. Would I rather be skiing at AltaBird? Sure. Would I be willing to give up living on the ocean the other 6 months? Nope.

 

[Admin]

Once Tony retires, I expect even more detailed reporting, although I can only guess at what additional stats he would need to keep track of!

Meaningless conjecture on this point could be a thread in itself. :lol:

 

[Patrick]

Not because of the East vs. West, but because I knew that the eastern powder in 2006-07 was concentrated in time, while Patrick's ski days are spread over the season with not much flexibility.

I didn't miss much in 2006-07, I believe I got 3 of the 4 biggest storms of the seasons. I believe the only big storm I missed (although I was skiing in the storm, but far from epicentre) was on March 17. I had my Masters final and I wasn't going to miss that. So you see, they are other things that powder in the East.

:lol:

That was not the point of my earlier comments, but since Patrick brought it up again...
1) The largest resorts of East are smaller in scale than what, 50+ areas in the West, and smaller by a factor of 10 to the largest ones.

Killington and Tremblant are WAY bigger than MRG.
Whistler is WAY bigger than Shames.

2) Lift-served sustained steeps top out at 33 degrees (Paradise).

33 degrees is the average. What is the average of Wipe Out or Drop Out top-to-bottom all the way to the lift? Also great runs BTW. .(Not saying that they aren't steeper, just wondering?).

Here is a quote from our old archives...thanks again Admin.

I found this in an old Powder mag (Oct. 89).'The Raddest Runs in the East' by David Goodman (in search of the steepest run in the east). Great article.

Here are the stats from the article:
Name,(where), lenght, vertical drop, average width, Steepness (Steepest/avg in degree), snowmaking, groomed (numbers by ski areas)

Paradise (MRG), 1600ft, 750ft, 50ft, 45+/33, No, No

I've measured it and 45+ for the first few hundred feet seems about right.

This also points into that direction (from 3dskimaps.com).

http://3dskimaps.com/madriverglen/

3) Terrain is less diverse. Almost no high alpine and only an elite handful have meaningful glade skiing).

Geoff answered this one pretty well.

4) And then of course we have the rain/freeze/thaw conditions that typically make conditions marginal about 1/3 of the time.

5) Powder is IMHO the equalizer that sometimes elevates eastern skiing to be comparable to other ski regions.

Mont Ste-Anne, Tremblant, Mount Washington, Stowe, Whiteface, Sugarloaf, etc etc etc etc are amazing hills to ski in the Spring time. Although not a big fan of Tremblant, that hill really rocks in April when the snow is turning to corn.

You really need to spend a few seasons here to appreciate it. A visit isn't enough.

 

[Tony Crocker]

You really need to spend a few seasons here to appreciate it.

Not too enticing when I'd be sidelined by crappy conditions 1/3 of the time.

The spring argument is self-delusional. Has anyone been reading admin's Snowbird reports lately? The East has had near-optimal springs the last 2 years, and you can still stick a fork in it by early May, Mt. Washington/Chic-Chocs backcountry excepted. Normal years the fat lady is singing a week or two into April for decent lift service eastern skiing. In a sh!tty year I'm still skiing Mammoth on Memorial Day.

Bottom line: take cost/convenience out of the equation and even Patrick spends only 20% of his ski time in the East. For most of the rest of us, maybe 5-10% at best.

FYI lots of eastern steepness measurements here: http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.ph ... eep&page=3 , posts #66,#69 and #74. Whiteface Slides at 36 degrees are steeper than Paradise. Also Tucks, which measures up to the best of the West, in post #141 on P. 5.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Bottom line: take cost/convenience out of the equation and even Patrick spends only 20% of his ski time in the East. For most of the rest of us, maybe 5-10% at best.

Translation, please.

 

[Patrick]

Bottom line: take cost/convenience out of the equation and even Patrick spends only 20% of his ski time in the East. For most of the rest of us, maybe 5-10% at best.

Translation, please.

:x :x :x I've just lost a massive reply.

The translation comes from a discussion here somewhere and the question was if I could ski anywhere anytime without any cost/convenience factor in, where would I ski. I believe it was in a discussion about where someone in the Midwest should go skiing?

I answered that I would spend 20% of my ski days in the East thus the "20%" quoted by Tony. I also mentioned that I would ONLY spend 40% of my time in the West (Tony didn't mention that part). Why? Simply because they're more big areas that I haven't skied in the West or the Alps. I guess I would need to factor in the Southern Hemisphere too. :-k

Okay, that addresses one of the topics that I've just lost.

 

[Patrick]

.

You really need to spend a few seasons here to appreciate it.

Not too enticing when I'd be sidelined by crappy conditions 1/3 of the time..

Whiteface Slides at 36%.

Slides at 36% :?: :?: :?: I've seen that discussion quoted before. :roll: I guess you mean 36 degrees, which would be the average. The steepest part for a few hundred feet is definitely in the 40-45 degrees range, however that's only part of the difficulty.

Dynamite @ Tremblant - 28 degrees.

Same quote in Epic. Dynamite has probably one of the steepest pitches I've skied, however it all depends how the snow is blow on it and can vary a lot. The steepest I've seen it is close to 50degrees, but only for 30-40 feet.

You want to ski steep? There are some steeps in the East? Steep enough for me.

Here are some TRs from the last 3 months from steep shit in the East by Gpetrics, Jumpturn, Samthaman and AWF170 from T4T, TGR, AZ, FTO, etc.

http://www.timefortuckerman.com/forums/ ... php?t=9710

http://www.timefortuckerman.com/forums/ ... php?t=9716

http://www.timefortuckerman.com/forums/ ... php?t=9762

http://www.timefortuckerman.com/forums/ ... php?t=9776

http://www.timefortuckerman.com/forums/ ... php?t=9804

http://www.timefortuckerman.com/forums/ ... php?t=9881

http://www.timefortuckerman.com/forums/ ... php?t=9630

http://www.timefortuckerman.com/forums/ ... php?t=9856

Now back to the show...

 

[Admin]

I'm enjoying just the battle of the smileys kidnapped from other places. I guess it's time to supplement our selection.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I'm enjoying just the battle of the smileys kidnapped from other places.

I couldn't resist, but Patrick has expanded the selection quite a bit. How about this one

for some of admin's reports?

The other East vs. West vs. Europe thread (a bit more focused) is here: http://www.firsttracksonline.com/boards ... php?t=2352 .

Sorry about the %/degrees typo (now fixed) regarding the Slides. It's clear that Patrick considers them more challenging on average than Paradise.

I've always said that Tucks' steeps were comparable to the best of the West. But you get to ski them a bit more frequently with lift service.

You really need to spend a few seasons here to appreciate it.

On second thought this deserves a more detailed answer. A decision where to spend a whole season to me would first depend upon how many weeks I'd expect the skiing to be worthwhile. By analyzing the last 9 years of FTO reports I find that an average Vermont season has 20 weeks of "conditions worth skiing" vs. 28 at the better western locales, and 13 vs. 21+ weeks of good conditions (B or better).

 

[Harvey]

What I want to know is how does Tony define:

meaningful glade skiing.

 

[Patrick]

You really need to spend a few seasons here to appreciate it.

On second thought this deserves a more detailed answer.

You realize that I'm spending all this time responding to this thread instead of working on the continuation of the Chilean Adventures TR. #-o :wink: Next installment should be this weekend, focus is job related now until the end of the week.

 

[Admin]

I'm enjoying just the battle of the smileys kidnapped from other places. I guess it's time to supplement our selection.

I've added those used in this thread to our selection.

 

[awf170]

The spring argument is self-delusional. Has anyone been reading admin's Snowbird reports lately? The East has had near-optimal springs the last 2 years, and you can still stick a fork in it by early May, Mt. Washington/Chic-Chocs backcountry excepted. Normal years the fat lady is singing a week or two into April for decent lift service eastern skiing. In a sh!tty year I'm still skiing Mammoth on Memorial Day.

Yep, EC spring skiing sucks. Right Icelanticskier? :lol:

 

[Tony Crocker]

icelantic has been earning turns in the backcountry. Care to compare his pics to those schubwa posted from Oregon?

With regard to Harvey44's question about eastern glades, they are a relatively scarce commodity vs. many western areas. Otherwise why is there this great code of silence about disclosing their locations online? I've read several places about tight skiable lines in the eastern woods "being done after 4 or 5 people have been there."

With regard to terrain what you find in the East is a subset of what you find in the West. Some types (high alpine, lift accessible >35 degrees) are nearly non-existent. Others, like glades, exist but in lesser quantity or at fewer areas.

 

[icelanticskier]

i've said it before and i'll say it again, you can't compare east/west tree skiing. western tree skiing is, "throw a tree or two in the middle of a bowl and call it tree skiing, yawn! eastern tree skiing, character, character, character, tight, technical, brook beds, fun. i'd much rather spend a day skiing saddlebacks epic trees than the "glades" off of wildcat at alta or any other place. if there's two things i know it's real estate investment and east/west skiing as i've spent alot more time skiing in western "glades" than tony has spent skiing our eastern woods.

and about eastern spring conditions, better and more consistent than most spots out west as all i've read from western ski reports is, "before it turned to glue" or, "had to change aspect" or, "unsupportable" or, "no refreeze" or, "frozen up high, good in the middle, crappy down low".
not here my friends. mount washington didn't see an overnight freeze from april 18th till almost mid-may and the skiing remained perfect and after a freeze even better, top to bottom, wall to wall goodness. and yes i'm reffering to mt washington as the bc is what matters to me not resort skiing as resort skiing to me is less like real skiing to me and always has been.
rog

 

[Admin]

i've said it before and i'll say it again, you can't compare east/west tree skiing. western tree skiing is, "throw a tree or two in the middle of a bowl and call it tree skiing, yawn!

Careful with that broad brush of yours, Picasso! Most of Colorado, the Pacific NW, etc., etc. isn't like that at all.

 

[icelanticskier]

ok, so i forgot to mention certain tree types of the different regions of the west. ya, steamboats got it's blvd aspen glades and the pnw has it's giant tree well trap variety of pine but, and you get my argument, east/west tree skiing can't be compared especially by folks that haven't spent a bunch of time skiing both. most shot's featured in powder of the west are wide open spaces where the top of the head and maybe a glove are visible and the few that make it in from the east are of the great treeskiing we have with a bunch of pow.
rog

 

[Harvey]

With regard to terrain what you find in the East is a subset of what you find in the West. Some types (high alpine, lift accessible >35 degrees) are nearly non-existent. Others, like glades, exist but in lesser quantity or at fewer areas.

I may have been thrown off by the word "meaningful." From your clarification, it sounds like you're criticizing the variety of EC glade skiing.

As everyone here knows, I spend the majority of my time at Gore - certainly not in the "elite" of eastern ski areas. But the trees at Gore have a lot of meaning to skiers at Gore. I think it's one at the primary attractions for the more advanced skiers who go there.

They also have meaning for the success of the mountain...satisfying families with skiers ranging from expert to beginner.

I'm no expert on Eastern trees, so help me out here ECers with a list of areas with meaningful tree skiing. I may have the elite listed in the top 5 below, so help me with the rest:

Jay
Stowe
Sugarbush
Mad River
Smuggs
Killington
Cannon
Gore
.....

(Where is Riv when you need him?)

 

[Admin]

I'm no expert on Eastern trees, so help me out here ECers with a list of areas with meaningful tree skiing. I may have the elite listed in the top 5 below, so help me with the rest:

Jay
Stowe
Sugarbush
Mad River
Smuggs
Killington
Cannon
Gore
.....

(Where is Riv when you need him?)

This former ECer and frequent Cannon skier wouldn't include Cannon in that mix. Save for a few on-map glades (e.g., Kinsman) and some custom jobs between Mittersill and Cannon proper the woods are too darned dense, even by what Tony refers to as my "rabbit warren" standards.