Where to Live in Upper New England

[J.Spin]

Thanks for your response Steve, that’s exactly the kind of stuff I was wondering about. It’s one thing to visit the NEK, but like most places, living there for a certain amount of time will let you know what life is really like. So it was great to hear about it from your perspective. I never knew that you headed over to Burlington so often when you were in St. J., but after reading your comments I can see why. The common phrase I’d always heard in the Burlington area is “The great thing about the Champlain Valley is that it’s so close to Vermont.”

-J

 

[Tony Crocker]

From River's description, Jeff Foxworthy would suggest that you "check your NEK" before moving there. :lol:

 

[skibumm100]

I never thought that I'd see "Brattleboro," "Bennington" and "urban" used in the same sentence.

I believe a Grand Union (supermarket) qualifies a town in VT for "urban" status.

We just felt like outsiders. I got the same vibe from a lot of transplants up there.

I moved to St. Albans from northern NY and lived in there for five years and I have to agree with Steve's comment. For the first six months that I lived there you could hear a pin drop when I walked in the Annex bar. Very difficult to meet people. People weren't rude, just cliquey. Not at all what I was used to coming from Lowville, NY where everybody is your friend and you can't get out of a bar because drinks you didn't pay for keep showing up in front of you. Of course, drinking heavily was the local past time and no one wants to do it alone. After I met my girlfriend (now wife), people in town (read "bar") started accepting me. She grew up in Newport, VT and had been in St. Albans for several years. After that everything was fine. The people that I worked with in VT were all very friendly. Some were native Vermonters and many were from Maine. All a good bunch. I enjoyed living there and I am looking at property in the NEK. I don't think I want to move back but I enjoy visiting. I was not crazy about the politics of the state. It seemed like Vermont is not run by Vermonters. It seems like it's run by urban transplants who got their chunk of heaven and will do their best to make sure you don't get yours and stop you from doing what you should have the right to do on your own land. NH has a completely different feel to me. I like it and my wife likes it. I think if I gave my wife the option of staying here or moving back to the NEK she would pick here for many different reasons. Sorry... a little long and a little off-topic.

Skiing content: The skiing is good here too and it's not too far away.

 

[riverc0il]

I was not crazy about the politics of the state. It seemed like Vermont is not run by Vermonters. It seems like it's run by urban transplants who got their chunk of heaven and will do their best to make sure you don't get yours and stop you from doing what you should have the right to do on your own land. NH has a completely different feel to me. I like it and my wife likes it. I think if I gave my wife the option of staying here or moving back to the NEK she would pick here for many different reasons.

Funny you think NH is completely different politically than VT considering its politics are being taken over by MA transplants moving into southern NH. Without getting too political and just keeping to the facts, NH recently elected two democratic congressmen and a democratic governor after years of being a republican stronghold.

Regarding Vermont, if you want to read up on the politics of the state, Two Vermonts by Searls, Dateline Vermont by Graff, and Fast Lane Dirt Road by Sherman are nice places to start and Vermont Political Tradition by Doyle and Feedom and Unity by Sherman will add a bit more. Two Vermonts by Searls really captured so much of Vermont politics for me between the rural and the city pressures on the governmental system. It is ironic that the people pushing for economic development in VT are often the natives and the transplants are trying to conserve VT so they don't loose their views of an idealistic and iconic location of their dreams. Take the Wind Farm Tower issue which often has transplants calling for "don't ruin my view of the ridgeline" and locals calling for more jobs and better economic issues. With so much of the voting population coming from Burlington, an ultra progressive city and regional area, that large population dictates a lot of state politics. That can be traced back to the decision to allow for population dictated governance instead of one town one vote style which favored the rural regions. Really interesting stuff. The most interesting thing is the two extremes come together to get so much done. But the biggest political forces are often transplants themselves (Dean, Sanders, Welch, Douglas currently and so many big names in the past as well). Don't mean to hyjack the thread, but I thought the characterization of Vermont politics somewhat unfair. One of the biggest liberals in the state is VT born Leahy. There are a lot of transplants elected but they are on both sides and the bigger battle is not transplant versus native born in politics but rather city versus country, preservation versus development, or in Searls terms... Uphill versus Downhill.

 

[icelanticskier]

many good points made here. when i lived up north burke, lincoln, bethel i found that since i had skiing so close to me in those areas that i was less likely to travel east/west, (a pain in northern ne) to chase snow when i had snow and good skiing in my back yard. living in the portsmouth area is nice cuz it's hip and groovy, has a lot goin on, has some cultural diversity, the ocean, easy to points south and north/west. from a skiing standpoint it's nice cuz as chricC pointed out, storms track south sometimes and it's nice to hit those and it's also nice when corn season comes and there's no new snow anywhere, it corns south sooner. when i lived north i didn't travel south to ski cuz it just didn't feel right to do so. so, even though i drive a bit more now, i've been hitting the storms/goods wherever they may land with more efficiency than ever before. south's not bad. nh is great.

rog

 

[riverc0il]

NH is better for living but VT is better for skiing. At least that is the conclusion I have come to. Though NH has better late season backcountry options and VT does not have much for the above tree line mountaineering qualities that the Presidentials bring (Mansfield excepting, which just as much slacking than backcountry). Rog's point about not going south is spot on and happened to me both living in StJ and currently in Ashland though I did do a night race league at Pat's this year (doubt I will partake again next year though). North and west are generally the only directions I travel for skiing.

Hanover (or the Upper Valley in general) was mentioned as a good area to live. You have a decent sized city with some shopping and cultural options in the area, Dartmouth of course brings the cultural options and employment options a big name College/University offers, and skiing options are immense with most of VT within 1-2 hours. Certainly closer to a lot of VT options than my current location. Concord is another great location that provides lots of options. Folks in Concord can get to Bush, MRG, and Stowe faster than I can going back roads (not too much faster though, but all highway). Though Concord has more going on than Plymouth, I really like having the Whites and Lakes in my backyard and spring, summer, and fall up here are going to be just sensational this year now that I can actually enjoy them instead of working 6 days a week 12+ hours a day.

Portsmouth is a killer city and has good skiing options but VT is a long haul from down there. Same with Portland, even further away from VT but close to Maine mountains and not too far from the Presis. Overall, I see Portsmouth and Portland having the same skiing draw backs as living in north eastern MA as I once did, just better/cheaper quality of living, less people/traffic, better cities with more going on, etc.

The big problem with where to live in New England, is the better your skiing options... the worse your cultural, shopping, entertainment, and social options with very few exceptions. Burlington and Concord are really the only two Northern New England cities (Concord in "Northern New England" is a big of a stretch but close enough) that offer enough of those non-skiing options for the city slicker. Manchester is close enough to Concord to provide lots of options on that front and Manchester is only an hour outside of Boston from there. Hanover/WRJ, Montpelier/Barre, North Conway, and perhaps Rutland form that second tier of small cities. Then places like StJ, Lincoln, Plymouth, Waterbury, etc. make good options for more of the town option with just enough to do within the city limits that you don't have to go too far to get things done non-skiing related.

 

[skibumm100]

Funny you think NH is completely different politically than VT considering its politics are being taken over by MA transplants moving into southern NH.

Correct, speaking more about the feel of the state when I moved here six years ago. The times are definitely changing...and will continue to move in that direction as more people move out of MA. I am afraid that NH will lose it's identity soon, if it hasn't already. "Live Free or Die" won't be any more than bumper sticker fodder.

It is ironic that the people pushing for economic development in VT are often the natives and the transplants are trying to conserve VT so they don't loose their views of an idealistic and iconic location of their dreams. ......

That's because they need a job. The view is nice but you can't eat it. Industry has been leaving VT for a long time. You could see it coming like a freight train since the mid 80's (or before). Companies leaving VT in droves. How many large companies that actually make something have moved into VT. I can think of Husky. There might be a couple more. The list of companies leaving or downsizing is longer. That is true nationwide, though, so it's not just a VT thing. You only need just so many tourist information booths. Most of the people in VT just want a steady job, a house they can afford and a good school for their kids. They can't live off the dividends from their portfolio and they aren't "trustafarians".

But the biggest political forces are often transplants themselves (Dean, Sanders, Welch, Douglas currently and so many big names in the past as well). Gov. Madeline Cunin (Swiss born?)

My point exactly.

One of the biggest liberals in the state is VT born Leahy. .

I'll cut Pat some slack. One of my in-laws worked in his office in DC for a while. Supposed to be a good guy but I never met him. Liberal or Conservative, I would like to see more Vermonters involved in the politics of their state.

There are a lot of transplants elected but they are on both sides and the bigger battle is not transplant versus native born in politics but rather city versus country, preservation versus development, or in Searls terms... Uphill versus Downhill.

I agree with the sentiment but I think it ends up being transplant vs. native by default, in some situations, because of the reasons mentioned earlier in this thread. For example, how many transplants will move to Lowell or Irasburg or East Enosburg(to live, not visit)...not many. Why..no jobs. They will move to Burlington or Rutland or Brattleboro. Why? Employment, convenience (they got a Grand Union!)cultural opportunities and it is more of what they feel comfortable with. More urban, more like MA or CT or NY.

 

[sszycher]

This is a very interesting thread that covers a lot of ground. Here are my quick opinions in conveneint bullet point format!

-for skiing/riding alone, I'd take Waterbury over the Upper Valley, not that the Upper Valley's skiing riding options are shabby by any means! But Waterbury has an embarrassment of riches in that regard.

-the NEK definitely has a different vibe to it than most other portions of VT - definitely different than, say, the Mad River Valley, Woodstock, etc. I do think, more than other regions of VT, there's going to be a "you're from away, aren't you?" attitude, whereas transplants are more accepted/tolerated in other portions of the state (Burlington VT is like ATL, GA...everybody's from somewhere else :? )

-As far as where is better to live, it all depends on a variety of factors. I wouldn't issue a blanket statement saying NH is a better place to live than VT; So. NH now has a lot of communities which feel like exurbs of MA. And I'll bet RiverC0il would feel more at home in Woodstock or Brattleboro than in Pittsburgh NH (apologies in advance for speculating on other folk's opinions).

-as it was pointed out somewhere, things definitely feel different North of Franconia Notch, whether you're in N. NH or the NEK. It's frontier country. As a contractor from Lancaster NH once told me, "Everyone South of the Notch is flatlander!" :!:

 

[skibumm100]

NEK and northern NH are definitely less influenced by "outsiders" than the more accessible areas. Too far from the $$$. Sooner or later the "remote" areas of these two states will change. Waterbury is a nice location.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I may have mentioned before that I job interviewed in Concord NH in 1993. I had been in upper New England as a tourist a few times before and knew about the tedious east/west back roads. So I knew that the Interstate configuration made Concord an attractive location from a ski perspective, and thus entertained the possibility of moving, which I would have dismissed out of hand for most eastern locations.

I skied Killington on November 7 (Upper Cascade, Bunny Buster and Superstar open) on the second interview trip and was told by a couple of the locals that I would be nuts to move to New England from a ski perspective. It didn't help that 1993 was one of the July 4 years at Mammoth. Riverc0il's lake district was at its fall foliage peak during the first interview trip, very impressive.

The interviews didn't work out, which was fortunate because the company involved got moved out of Concord to North Carolina a few years later. But the other attractions of Concord were obvious: no traffic, cheaper housing, good public schools, etc.

 

[salida]

But the other attractions of Concord were obvious: no traffic, cheaper housing, good public schools, etc.

Growing up here, I would say two of the three no longer hold true. Fridays and Sundays now hold big traffic jams through the city, as people invade and depart NH for the weekend. I would also say housing is no longer "cheap" in the area...

 

[riverc0il]

But the other attractions of Concord were obvious: no traffic, cheaper housing, good public schools, etc.

That is funny because I think Concord is crowded as heck when I drive down there and a lot of MA folks reservations about moving to NH is poor school quality compared to MA (obviously, the bigger cities and regional districts in NH have been quality schools, but overall... well, education is falling apart everywhere so probably that issue is different now than it once was. Educational funding is a huge legislative issue right now as the powers that be are looking into realigning how schools are funded). VT beats NH for housing prices in general, but especially because NH usually sells more land at a lower cost. NEK you could get 10-20 acres and a nice house for $200k. Round here, that will net you a slightly smaller house and two acres. The mountains get in the way around here a lot more than VT forcing housing to be more consolidated and clustered whereas VT has more side roads and lets folks spread out. Regardless, Concord is certainly climbing in housing pricing, especially as folks transplant further and further up I-93 and younger folks growing up in the north country head south looking for jobs.

We should probably toss Littleton into the stirring pot as the best place to live "north of the notch." Littleton has nearby shopping in town (where all the NEK'ers go), a kick butt downtown, dining options, quick access to Cannon, Bretton, Burke, Loon, and Mount Washington and near Route 2 for east/west considerations. Lancaster is a neat town a little off the beaten path if Mount Washington, Cannon, and Wildcat are foremost in people's minds but too far away from most skiing aside from those close hits. Still no votes for North Conway area :lol: :lol: :lol: I would rank that area pretty low for quality of living reasons despite tons of nearby skiing options and sensational views and four season options.

 

[ChrisC]

Don't mean to hyjack the thread, but I thought the characterization of Vermont politics somewhat unfair. There are a lot of transplants elected but they are on both sides and the bigger battle is not transplant versus native born in politics but rather city versus country, preservation versus development, or in Searls terms... Uphill versus Downhill.

Re: NH vs. VT politics/culture/policy/development

$0.02

I think one of the key differences between NH and VT is in the above mentioned areas. To even simplify more, contrast the "Live Free or Die" vs. "Act 250" ethos that categorize these states - NH vs. VT.

I know NH resembles a lot of Western state attitudes with low (no) tax, conservative/libertarian streak vs. VT with a progressive planning for the greater good.

I think VT's Act 250 has a lot to with the -modern- difference between the 2 states.

At Dartmouth, I was able to take a few classes with the key author of Act 250 - Jonathan Brownell. And I just thought I would give some understanding - since there appears to be some audience for it.

Act 250 History-Why?
Executive Summary: Shit/effluent flowing down the sides of the Mt. Snow Valley - west side in the late 1960s. And the town could not afford to clean it up easily.

Long (extracted from Internet): The Vermont Land Development was a group of New Jersey investors who purchased large areas of property around the Mount Snow Ski Area. They correctly surmised that Dover was ripe for real estate speculation because the township had no zoning or planning laws and there were no state regulations regarding real estate development projects. It was a financial opportunity too good to pass up. Their greed transformed their original objective into fraudulent land sales that involved phony survey maps, intentionally confusing boundary lines, false septic system perk tests, and in some instances selling the same building lots to different buyers who would sue each other for legal title resulting in mortgage chaos between banks. Fueling their real estate confusion was VLDC’s aggressive advertising campaign throughout Connecticut, New Jersey and New York City that convinced the urban gullible to purchase land in the tiny idyllic state of Vermont before it was no longer available. The end result was a get rich quick scheme with frenzied out-of-state buyers engaging in bidding wars, flipping properties, and paying virtually no capital gains taxes.

In other words, Act 250 was supposed to be a development policy for the citizens of Vermont and allow town hall meetings to govern state growth.

In 1970, the Vermont legislature passed Act 250, known as the Land Use and Development Act. Development pressures creating community concerns including road congestion, increased environmental problems, burden on local services, and rising taxes. Governor Deane C. Davis (Republican) appointed a study commission in 1969 to develop a statewide law to address these concerns, as no environmental regulations or land-use controls existed.

The law created nine District Environmental Commissions to review large-scale development projects using 10 criteria that are designed to safeguard the environment, community life, and aesthetic character of the state. They have the power to issue or deny a permit to real estate developers for any project that encompasses more than 10 acres (40,000 m²), or more than 1 acre (4,000 m²) for towns that do not have permanent zoning and subdivision bylaws. The law also applies to any development project with more than 10 housing units or housing lots; and may also apply for construction proposed above 2,500 feet of elevation. Act 250 also created the Vermont Environmental Board to review appeals coming from District Commission rulings.


[edit] Ten Criteria
The 10 Criteria are as follows:

1. Will not result in undue water or air pollution.Included are the following considerations: (A) Headwaters; (B) Waste disposal (including wastewater and stormwater); (C) Water Conservation; (D) Floodways; (E) Streams; (F) Shorelines; and (G) Wetlands.
2. Has sufficient water available for the needs of the subdivision or development.
3. Will not unreasonably burden any existing water supply.
4. Will not cause unreasonable soil erosion or affect the capacity of the land to hold water.
5. Will not cause unreasonably dangerous or congested conditions with respect to highways or other means of transportation.
6. Will not create an unreasonable burden on the educational facilities of the municipality.
7. Will not create an unreasonable burden on the municipality in providing governmental services.
8. Will not have an undue adverse effect on aesthetics, scenic beauty, historic sites or natural areas, and 8(A) will not imperil necessary wildlife habitat or endangered species in the immediate area.
9. Conforms with the Capability and Development Plan which includes the following considerations: (A) The impact the project will have on the growth of the town or region: (B) Primary agricultural soils; (C) Productive forest soils; (D) Earth resources; (E) Extraction of earth resources; (F) Energy conservation; (G) Private utility services; (H) Costs of scattered developments; (J) Public utility services; (K) Development affecting public investments; and (L) Rural growth areas.
10. Is in conformance with any local or regional plan or capital facilities program.

However, there are a lot of laments about the law. It was viewed as a community process where regular citizens should be involved.

“In writing the law, what we did not anticipate was the involvement of lawyers in the Act 250 process. We wanted the process to be a citizen forum. The legal profession has transformed the citizen input mechanism into an adversarial proceeding. Unfortunately, the confrontational attitude by attorneys during Act 250 hearings has now filtered down into the local planning and permitting process as well. As a result, Act 250 has evolved into a contentious debate pitting residents against each other fighting over property rights. The involvement of lawyers during the citizen hearings distorted the original intent of Act 250 which, as an attorney, I (Brownell) deeply regret.”

This Act 250 is a Republican lawyer (Brownell) with a Republican governor (Davis) - both trying to do effective public policy. This is the same year Nixon was signing the Endangered Species Act. It has changed the growth of each state - NH or VT.

I think Act 250 was a noble try, and VT fared much better than NH in the 1990 Recession. Vermont does need to think about future growth.

 

[sszycher]

Bravo for the history lesson on Act 250! =D>

Is Act 250 the one that - as part of distributing money for school systems statewide - essentially charges "gold towns" like Killington, Stowe and Manchestere a higher tax rate which then helps subsidize school systems in less affluent towns? I'm trying to think of the Act/law that is a large part of Killington's threats to secede to NH or whatever.

Re: Littleton - It is a cool little town; my buddy worked in Littleton one Winter and had some locals/merchant pass to Cannon & Bretton Woods. My friend's mom who grew up in Lancaster told me, "When I was growing up, Littleton was the big city!"

 

[Admin]

Is Act 250 the one that - as part of distributing money for school systems statewide - essentially charges "gold towns" like Killington, Stowe and Manchestere a higher tax rate which then helps subsidize school systems in less affluent towns? I'm trying to think of the Act/law that is a large part of Killington's threats to secede to NH or whatever.

No, that's another one (Act 200?). Act 250 is the one that stifles development.

 

[skibumm100]

NH also has "donor" and "recipient" towns with regard to school taxes. Sometimes it seems backwards, though. :roll:

From my experience, Act 250 makes it very difficult to subdivide property, even if you're not "developing" it. It's hard to find anybody in VT who has something good to say about it. Of course, I don't know too many VT lawyers.

Gotta go....going skiing. 8) Supposed to stop raining tonight. :wink:

 

[ChrisC]

NH also has "donor" and "recipient" towns with regard to school taxes. Sometimes it seems backwards, though. :roll:

From my experience, Act 250 makes it very difficult to subdivide property, even if you're not "developing" it. It's hard to find anybody in VT who has something good to say about it. Of course, I don't know too many VT lawyers.

I know this is a huge issue. And one that is unresolved and unfair.

The goal of Act 250 was to concentrate development in the towns and cities of VT. However, as I understand things, this did not go into the original law - but was desired - and maybe added on.

To keep taxes low, towns should not have to spend money on development in sub-divided places where they do not see that growth coming. But it is very difficult to draw the line.

 

[BigSpencer]

...Would kind of like to see some concepts of Japanese designers, using space vertically, rather than horizontally. Could save parts of woodlands and grasslands...not to mention savings on fuel if one wants to "get out to the country" now & then...

 

[icelanticskier]

[/quote]


Mount Washington, Cannon, and Wildcat are foremost in people's minds but too far away from most skiing aside from those close hits. Still no votes for North Conway area :lol: :lol: :lol: I would rank that area pretty low for quality of living reasons despite tons of nearby skiing options and sensational views and four season options.[/quote]

i've been holding back but, you had to bring it up. there is no other place that i'd rather live in the north country than the mount washington valley.

with the presidentials offering the most spectacular ski terrain, the longest season and lot's of pow days that vt doesn't see. a bit less crowded skiing than northern vt resorts are, especially for powder, less snow, but less crowded. the valley also has great entertainment, shopping, food, schools, easy to portsmouth, portland, the ocean. the mountain biking is the best i've ridden in the north country and yes, i've ridden and built many of the kingdom trails and ridden waterbury/richmond/stowe trails a bunch and others. it's truly a recreation persons paradise. mount washington alone seals the deal for me for skiing. the locals are a great crowd minus the bro, brah tude that i've witnessed at other spots to the west. just a great place.

rog

 

[riverc0il]

S'all good rog. Don't hold back on us, you never have before :lol:

Seriously though, I can access all that for 1-1.5 hours drive. No doubt the MWV has tremendous outdoor recreational opportunities. I would rather drive there when I want to access it from nearby than live there. Tourist traffic on the weekends along gives me a headache just thinking about it and the traffic is worse during the non-skiing season. So that boils down to quality of life issue. True, MWV has the Presis and occasionally gets a rare powder day that completely misses VT. But VT is more consistent for powder. I was a nearly NH exclusive skier for years before moving up to StJ and expanding my horizons, there is a substantial difference and I don't think easy access to VT can be over looked when considering an ideal upper New England living location. MWV and North Conway area could definitely be good for the person looking for specific options and that doesn't mind the traffic or tourism mentality of the area.