Fair enough. I expected more overall and more regular snowfall and premium north facing ‘box canyon’ positioning would have overcome that shortfall.
Which North American Skiers Should Ski in Europe?
- Thread starter EMSC
- Start date
Snowfall and snow preservation are two different topics. Chris Steiner, founder of Zrankings, had only snowfall related parameters in his original algorithm.
I have for another project (still in limbo) constructed crowd indicies based upon estimated skier visits vs. acreage and lift capacity. Crowds do not factor into snow preservation score.
Places like Snowbird and Mammoth get hammered fast on powder days, but for overall retention of packed powder winter surfaces they are still elite. Once early season manmade is buried by that first 4 foot dump, you rarely get that scratchy subsurface. And groomer skier density is not as intense as in Europe or the US Northeast. Colorado's consistent smaller snowfalls eventually bury its manmade subsurfaces too, usually by mid-January but earlier in the better snow years.
In terms of overall comparison of the Alps vs. North American West:
1) Groomed skiing has longer runs with much better scenery in Europe. But surface conditions will be better in western North America at least 3/4 of the time due to lower skier density and less dependence on manmade snow.
2) Until you have skied a few times in the Alps, you don't realize that the snowmaking over there dwarfs even the highest capacity areas in North America. So the bad early seasons in North America like 2011-12 will be more limited in terrain than the bad early seasons in Europe. However those bad early seasons are at least twice as frequent in Europe.
3) We have already discussed the quantity and frequency of powder vs. competition for it. Overall I'd say 2/3 as much snow in Europe but it lasts at least 3x as long. But there are nuances in both regions that some places have snowier microclimates and some places have more powder competition.
4) Ungroomed skiing other than powder has many complexities. Our recent trip was an illustration that after the powder phase, skier packing which is routine in North America within boundaries is beneficial. Week old snow even in midwinter with favorable exposure can be chopped, sastrugi or some other unpleasant surface if it hasn't been skied much. Some places like Serre Chevalier are easily scouted from the lifts for both terrain and snow quality. James seeks out places like that which are also more intermediate in pitch and thus less subject to avalanche exposure. At the places known for big mountain terrain, it's highly advisable to hire a guide to stay out of trouble and learn your way around efficiently. It's not coincidental that ChrisC hires guides for a high proportion of his Euro ski days. Guides will also know where the good snow is when it has not snowed for awhile.
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jamesdeluxe
Administrator
Tony and I have emptied our respective tanks with reports about the recent Euro trip. It would be interesting to read a sentence or two about ChrisC's visit, especially an alternate view of the day when all three of us were at Serre Chevalier.
That may have been a wrong assumption on my part. In 2019 we arrived in Switzerland a few days after a series of massive northern stau storms. Over the next week we skied high quality leftover powder at Arosa, St. Moritz and Engelberg before we saw any new snow at Andermatt. This is an anecdotal example of why James and I achieve higher powder percentages in Europe than at home.
The above is also an argument in favor of our late January time frame. You're not getting good powder a week after a storm in March except in high, steep and well shaded locations.
You should pep talk your wife about this. There is no question that the day-in day-out new snow we enjoyed for 12 days in Hokkaido in 2016 are what made Liz much more comfortable in powder. You might want to get her some instruction too.
Yes. For myself and Emily as well which would make a few private lessons for the three of us reasonably priced.
It’s not needed for Tom. Although we didn’t have more than about a foot of new snow on any morning while in Europe it amazed me how easily he could ‘ride’ powder on a snowboard given he had only 4 days under his belt prior to that trip.
It doesn't amaze me. Many of the early adopters of snowboards were from the Pacific Northwest, where there is abundant but often heavy powder. Mt. Baker, famous for its 646 inch average annual snowfall and 1100 inch world record in 1998-99, is still a hotbed of snowboarding. Its banked slalom event has been held there since 1985. Fat skis for powder were first invented by cutting a snowboard in half.
ChrisC
Well-known member
Re: Euro Ski Mountains.
I had an old 2000 Outside Magazine ski book that suggested: Chamonix, Val d’sere, Verbier and St.Anton/Arlberg as the the 4 best places for experts to ski in Europe. Generally agree - all are high snowfall areas and the latter 3 are super well connected/off-piste accessible. I have perhaps spent about a week in each of them - some over multiple trips.
I like these lists too:
www.nationalgeographic.com
Note the disclaimer on Monterosa/Alagna.
(BTW: I skied Monterosa on way to Courmayeur as a sampler to see whether to come back in a good snow year - 70cm summit base in Alagna this year. Bad year. Do not pre-book)
Another good list:
www.outsideonline.com
Fraser’s list
www.weathertoski.co.uk
My interest in European skiing was reinvigorated a few seasons (2017) ago after a business sale to a Euro company and my brother doing a trip with me.
Just some reasons I like traveling to the Alps:
1. Terrain
I have a personal preference for open alpine skiing (some western US areas, most Alps resorts and Chugach/Valdez). And a just slightly lower desire for trees and powder (Japan, BC heli/cat, etc).
Also, I like the big technical 4-6k vertical lines of the Alps and often involving some couloirs.
You generally can find powder many days after a storm - some by self navigating or a guide. Wind is often the destroyer of powder - not competition- in the Alps.
2. Cost - Lifts
And 4 Days at Val d’Isere equals 1 Day at Vail, Breckenridge, Big Sky, Winter Park, Steamboat, etc …. Europe buys a lot for $250.
3. Free ride/Off Piste
It’s easy to split a guide with 2 or 3 people, and still be better off than US lift tickets. I have done a few private guide days at Val d’Isere, Verbier, Chamonix, Courmayeur and groups at St. Anton, Andermatt, La Grave, Engelberg (if you call Tony, Liz and I - a group and not a private). A guide can offer you recommendations for remaining days…
4. Transportation
Plane tickets can be relatively inexpensive to major European ski gateways in mid winter (not much more as a non-Denver/SLC location) and car rentals are less than US. Parking - still lots of free lift side lots at some resorts. Just look.
5. Costs - Accomodations - especially Half Board
Walking distance (to lifts) accommodations (with breakfast and parking) are relatively inexpensive. Courmayeur was a shared room with business school friend <50 euros. Also, easy to make adjustments before mid-February depending on snow.
Breakfast can be my mountain lunch
- ate my ham/cheese already.
The only other destination that as good as a value as Europe is interior BC/Alberta - the Powder Highway resorts. They are relatively cheaper than their US counterparts. Also you can pick the places that have the best snow whether coming from Calgary or Spokane or Kelowna.
Japan is the only destination I visited where it snowed daily for a week (2”-12”) and definitely a place to experience once.
I had an old 2000 Outside Magazine ski book that suggested: Chamonix, Val d’sere, Verbier and St.Anton/Arlberg as the the 4 best places for experts to ski in Europe. Generally agree - all are high snowfall areas and the latter 3 are super well connected/off-piste accessible. I have perhaps spent about a week in each of them - some over multiple trips.
I like these lists too:
The Top 7 Ski Resorts in Europe Right Now
The Alps boast some of the top adventure skiing spots in the world, from scrappy under-the-radar locales to couloir-etched slopes with international appeal.
www.nationalgeographic.com
Note the disclaimer on Monterosa/Alagna.
(BTW: I skied Monterosa on way to Courmayeur as a sampler to see whether to come back in a good snow year - 70cm summit base in Alagna this year. Bad year. Do not pre-book)
Another good list:
The Top 10 Ski Resorts in Europe
Discover what a passion for winter really means by schussing in the shadow of the Eiger, chowing down on five-star fondue in a slope-side farmhouse, or partying in Kitzbühel with the world's best skiers.
www.outsideonline.com
Fraser’s list
Weather to ski’s top 10 powder destinations – Europe
Weather to ski’s guide to finding the deepest powder in Europe.
www.weathertoski.co.uk
Just some reasons I like traveling to the Alps:
1. Terrain
I have a personal preference for open alpine skiing (some western US areas, most Alps resorts and Chugach/Valdez). And a just slightly lower desire for trees and powder (Japan, BC heli/cat, etc).
Also, I like the big technical 4-6k vertical lines of the Alps and often involving some couloirs.
You generally can find powder many days after a storm - some by self navigating or a guide. Wind is often the destroyer of powder - not competition- in the Alps.
2. Cost - Lifts
And 4 Days at Val d’Isere equals 1 Day at Vail, Breckenridge, Big Sky, Winter Park, Steamboat, etc …. Europe buys a lot for $250.
3. Free ride/Off Piste
It’s easy to split a guide with 2 or 3 people, and still be better off than US lift tickets. I have done a few private guide days at Val d’Isere, Verbier, Chamonix, Courmayeur and groups at St. Anton, Andermatt, La Grave, Engelberg (if you call Tony, Liz and I - a group and not a private). A guide can offer you recommendations for remaining days…
4. Transportation
Plane tickets can be relatively inexpensive to major European ski gateways in mid winter (not much more as a non-Denver/SLC location) and car rentals are less than US. Parking - still lots of free lift side lots at some resorts. Just look.
5. Costs - Accomodations - especially Half Board
Walking distance (to lifts) accommodations (with breakfast and parking) are relatively inexpensive. Courmayeur was a shared room with business school friend <50 euros. Also, easy to make adjustments before mid-February depending on snow.
Breakfast can be my mountain lunch
- ate my ham/cheese already.
The only other destination that as good as a value as Europe is interior BC/Alberta - the Powder Highway resorts. They are relatively cheaper than their US counterparts. Also you can pick the places that have the best snow whether coming from Calgary or Spokane or Kelowna.
Japan is the only destination I visited where it snowed daily for a week (2”-12”) and definitely a place to experience once.
ChrisC
Well-known member
Tony and I have emptied our respective tanks with reports about the recent Euro trip. It would be interesting to read a sentence or two about ChrisC's visit, especially an alternate view of the day when all three of us were at Serre Chevalier.
Summer 2013
No - I skied a few more places in Europe and evening remote work:
La Thuile/La Rosiere
Flaine/Grand Massif
Avoriaz/Chatel/Champery/Les Crosets
Morzine/Les Gets/Mt Chery
jamesdeluxe
Administrator
If I don't write a report within a few days of the experience, I lose momentum and start forgetting what happened!Summer 2013
Until you get your photos up, it'd be interesting to see how your impressions squared with mine (obviously you're looking for tougher terrain than me):
That's a target for my upcoming trip, assuming that the Western Alps get some decent snow in the next three weeks.
So this brings up the flip side of the question I posed to EMSC. Would ChrisC being be skiing as much in the Alps from SF if he didn't have a work connection there? My read is that the work connection made it easy a couple of times and then he decided it was worth doing regularly on his own dime.
I agree with essentially all of ChrisC's points.
1) I too have a strong preference for alpine terrain, likely due to Mammoth being my home area. Mammoth is #2 to Whistler Blackcomb for that type of terrain in North America. ChrisC should really make the effort to get to Mammoth in April/May of a season like this one. I analyzed the powder situation with my own stats earlier in this thread. The long vertical runs are something we don't get so much in North America and even some of them that are pistes are memorable. As for the off-piste big lines, I was aware enough of that uniqueness to sign up for the Extremely Canadian trip to La Grave in 2008.
2) James and I have commented often on the window price disparity vs. North America, which has been growing steadily over the past decade. If you're a variety junkie like Liz and I are, it's nice to be able to decide where to ski on a day-to-day basis without being price gouged.
3) I have not done as much guided skiing as ChrisC, but there's no question that it's often worthwhile. April 13, 2018 in Val d'Isere was every bit the equivalent of a top tier powder day at Mustang. And backside Valluga from St. Anton and the "Big Five" at Engelberg are bucket list runs in anyone's book. Despite James' protests, I believe he would have been comfortable with both of those especially in the powder conditions I enjoyed them. As for the more extreme terrain, ChrisC's abilities there are above mine, and while I skied La Voute at La Grave at age 55, it's not clear that I should be skiing lines like that at 70.
4) Our preferred late January timeframe does seem to be a slow demand time for US-Europe airfares. The March/April time we went in 2022 is more expensive, though probably not as much as in summer.
5) On the ground in Europe, Americans are currently in a sweet spot for costs with the exchange rates. In 2004 and 2008 it was not like that. James started skiing the Alps in that era and often bemoaned the high costs. He advocated half board then primarily as a cost saving measure. Liz and I like it for the relaxed self contained ambience after an energetic ski day.
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jamesdeluxe
Administrator
This is probably for a different thread but without having seen any of those runs, it's possible that I'd enjoy them in untracked powder or otherwise forgiving conditions. As you and @EMSC have seen with me, it's when we're combining a) double-black steep/confined/narrow/exposed terrain with b) sub-optimal cover that I say "no thanks." Just trying to make it down in one piece is not fun for me. I believe that @jasoncapecod may have a similar approach.
FWIW, it's the same deal for me with mountain biking.
Yes I've been doing that since nearly every season since 1997. There was a short period in the mid-2000's when $CDN was strong, but prices were still OK and well below Europe.
ChrisC
Well-known member
I looked at some saved articles on Skiing: Europe vs. North America. This one had a lot of good points:
The Alps possess lure and legend for every alpine skier. Zermatt, St Anton, Kitzbuhel, Courchevel, Chamonix… all these ski resorts conjure visions of grand vertical, soaring skiable peaks, picture perfect chalets, and the best ski scenery in the world. But modern progress in the US Rockies, in Japan, have perhaps eclipsed the traditional alpine skiing of Europe. Are The Alps still the best, with the deepest snow, the greatest lifts, attracting the greatest skiers? Here’s our take on why you must ski the Alps in your lifetime, and why you should be wary of the flurry of folklore ….
Reasons to Ski The Alps
The Scenery – the amazing Alps – the superlatives aren’t super enough – breathtaking, jaw dropping, dramatic, otherworldly, blah blah blah… The Matterhorn of Zermatt is the most iconic peak and most photographed in the world. The Jungfrau trio – The Eiger, The Monch and Jungfrau are inimitable. From atop Lenzerheide’s Rothorn you can see 1001 peaks. Verbier’s Mont Fort is spectacular… I could go on…you just need to go and see for yourself these majestic snow-capped sky scrapers of nature.
The History – The Alps are where the tradition of skiing was born. Medieval villages like Kitzbuhel spawned the sport of skiing down a snow covered hill with wooden boards strapped to one’s feet with leather thong strappings. Just as devout Catholics are drawn to Rome and Vatican city, so should skiers be called to St Anton – the cradle of alpine skiing. Spain’s Pyrenees are dramatic, the Val D’Aran in the heart of this mountainous region holds 33 authentic villages and the biggest skiing in Spain at Baqueira Beret.
The Terrain – Skiing the Alps is so much bigger than most US or Canadian ski resorts. “Ski Arenas” they’re called as several villages connect their snowy slopes via cable cars and trams to create huge ski regions and circuits. You can ski for miles, from town to town, peak to valley to peak and so on. Aletsch Arena in Switzerland, The Dolomites in Italy, Les Trois Vallees of France – these vast conglomerates of ski lifts and long trails connecting villages are impressive, complicated on a trail map, and exciting to conquer during your visit.
The Lifestyle – Skiing is a tradition, a revered pastime and a lifestyle in Europe’s Alps. Its not just making laps, or an activity on the occasional weekend or holiday. Alpine enthusiasts in the Alps love their mountains, make their homes here, and revere this terrain all year round – from hiking to biking to skiing and sledding. The Swiss and The Austrian are particularly outdoorsy and just love being in the mountains. From a young age with their parents, to old age, you see people engaging in mountain exploring, walking and adventuring in the Alps.
The Lifts – Switzerland is home to Garaventa, Austria – Doppelmayr. The Alps showcase their lift engineering with amazing trams, cable cars and bubble-covered heated six and eight person chairs. Where they place these marvelous lift is also mind blowing, landing large trams on craggy peaks with huge glass lodges at 3,000 meters. The 3-minute Tram connection Lenzerheide to Arosa is fascinating with its two independent 150 person trams and moving loading platforms. Zermatt’s Swarovski crystal bedazzled gondolas are a sight to behold.
The Chalets – modest wooden huts with beautiful balconies, shuttered windows, and large overhanging roofs loaded with snow, these are not postcards of yore but true building styles used to this day. Staying in a chalet, you will find wood burning stoves, native stone and usually a down duvet fluffed atop your simple neat bed, and a hearty breakfast, of yogurt, farm cheese, ham and bread, is served early before you hit the slopes. Often ski hotels have a ski and boot room – with a boot dryer which make me and my feet happy. See Top Swiss Ski Hotels, Top Ski Hotels in Austria, Top Ski Hotels in France, and Top Ski Hotels in Italy.
The Cuisine – You can ski to a mountainside hut, step inside and be greeted by the owner, the very farmer who grazes his sheep here in summer. Their often simple menu is homemade fare with cheese from the cows, and crops from local fields. Hearty plates include Rösti- grated potato baked with cheese, bacon and egg on top, Fondue or Raclette! While the cuisine is not complex, its filling, delicious and wholesome – typically made from scratch. Coffee is a tradition, cappuccino or expresso served with a little something sweet as you ski in mid morning, or following your big lunch. Schnapps and Grappa are “digestives” –moonshine made from juniper, apples, berries, picked from the hillside flora and fauna. Its wicked strong, often tasty but sometimes resembles lighter fluid…but its made with love, so toast “prost” and drink and smile!
The Après Ski – The Austrians love to party after skiing, with drinks and music and dancing often at a bar by the slopes (still; in ski boots) – like the Moosewirt at St Anton, or a sun terrace in the ski village at the base of the slopes. The French like their disco dance parties like La Folie Douce on the slopes at Val D’Isère and Meribel. The Swiss love their Glühwein and sunning themselves at a mountain chalet. The Italians like to sip their Aperol Spritz in their chic ski attire while admiring the scene and themselves – so good to see and to be seen.
Why not to ski the Alps …
The Weather -Skiing is a weather dependent sport, and The Alps create a dramatic environment of every changing conditions. You can have blinding snow, or scorching sun, wind or rain, perhaps all in one day. Much of the skiing is above tree line, so visibility can be a white out with fog or snow. Some years the Alps are blessed with bountiful snow, with huge snowbanks, or there can be snow draught years, where ski resorts with snowmaking survive, but others are extremely limited in their operation.
The Terrain – In the US, ski resort mountains were carefully selected for their northern exposure and natural contours inherent to skiing. Ski industry leaders developed the mountains with the best slopes and aspects, then cut the trails. Take Vail for an example where they designed the mountain and the resort village followed to accommodate the skiers. In some cases, the resulting resort village in the US came out charming, others, not so much. In the Alps, they had summer tourist towns and villages that existed for hiking and summer activities long before the ski terrain. The towns then placed ski lifts up the nearest mountains, sometimes regardless of the viability or fall line of the ski terrain. Then they started connecting lifts to neighboring village with long cable cars or steep t bars – whatever worked. So the terrain is vast, spread out, sometimes huge, not always ideal or convenient, with long traverses (hence snowboarding is less popular in Europe) and crazy lifts spanning deep steep valleys. And there are cliffs, big cliffs, venture “off piste” and you are on your own. There is rarely, if ever, a “danger cliffs” sign. Hire a Guide to safely explore off-piste and truly maximize your time on skis – its worth it!
The Trails – In Europe, ski trails don’t really have names, just a number, and a delineation of poles marking each side, short colored stripes to the left, longer colored stripes to the right (this becomes important in white out conditions).
Blue is easy, Red is intermediate, Black is expert, Yellow is ungroomed.
The prepared pistes lack the character a trail name brings to its run… White Heat and Forever sound more tantalizing, unique and memorable than #5 or 23. North American mountains also have more trails, where in The Alps one lift serves maybe 2 or 3 pistes.
The Skis – The Europeans are traditional alpinist, racing and carving turns are revered. The Swiss all ski on Stockli’s and carve their perfect little turns, so you might look ridiculous on your fat pow skis asking about the off-piste. Interestingly more and more European are finding interest in “free riding” – their term for skiing beyond the prepared groomed pistes… so the shaped ski revolution may change to rocker.. stay tuned. You see far fewer snowboarders in Europe, like 10% or less, it’s just not the rage given that ski touring and traversing on big mountain terrain is just more convenient on two planks than one.
Reservations for lunch – Dining in the Alps is a pastime, and the most reputed huts and chalet reserve their lunch tables in the advance. Mind you, its more than a cafeteria tray, burger and cold fries. So scout at the best lunch huts, most trail maps have a whole section on mountain restaurants, and call ahead for your spot. Lunch menus average about $20 per person, so bring your wallet too, and don’t be in a rush if you want to take part in this authentic alpine experience.
Lift Queues – Lift lines in The Alps are a bit chaotic, compared to the US and Canada with our controlled corrals and lift attendants. You are frequently riding high capacity trams, 100-150 passengers, with a crush to get in, or six to eight passenger high speed chairs with little order as you enter the lift terminal. European lift attendants don’t bother to pair people up or manage the liftlines, they do manage time for their cigarettes however, even while loading chair or dispensing T-Bars.
The Chairlift Conversations – maybe its just me (“chatty chair cathy”) but I find the Swiss in particular to be not overly friendly in lift lines and on the lifts. I love a good ski conversation on my ride up. The Europeans can be downright quiet during their uploads. They are very quick to put down the safety bar however, so be ready immediately upon loading, its not optional, and they raise the bar at the very last moment, not before… it’s the law, and they’re serious and punctual about it.
The Alps possess lure and legend for every alpine skier. Zermatt, St Anton, Kitzbuhel, Courchevel, Chamonix… all these ski resorts conjure visions of grand vertical, soaring skiable peaks, picture perfect chalets, and the best ski scenery in the world. But modern progress in the US Rockies, in Japan, have perhaps eclipsed the traditional alpine skiing of Europe. Are The Alps still the best, with the deepest snow, the greatest lifts, attracting the greatest skiers? Here’s our take on why you must ski the Alps in your lifetime, and why you should be wary of the flurry of folklore ….
Reasons to Ski The Alps
The Scenery – the amazing Alps – the superlatives aren’t super enough – breathtaking, jaw dropping, dramatic, otherworldly, blah blah blah… The Matterhorn of Zermatt is the most iconic peak and most photographed in the world. The Jungfrau trio – The Eiger, The Monch and Jungfrau are inimitable. From atop Lenzerheide’s Rothorn you can see 1001 peaks. Verbier’s Mont Fort is spectacular… I could go on…you just need to go and see for yourself these majestic snow-capped sky scrapers of nature.
The History – The Alps are where the tradition of skiing was born. Medieval villages like Kitzbuhel spawned the sport of skiing down a snow covered hill with wooden boards strapped to one’s feet with leather thong strappings. Just as devout Catholics are drawn to Rome and Vatican city, so should skiers be called to St Anton – the cradle of alpine skiing. Spain’s Pyrenees are dramatic, the Val D’Aran in the heart of this mountainous region holds 33 authentic villages and the biggest skiing in Spain at Baqueira Beret.
The Terrain – Skiing the Alps is so much bigger than most US or Canadian ski resorts. “Ski Arenas” they’re called as several villages connect their snowy slopes via cable cars and trams to create huge ski regions and circuits. You can ski for miles, from town to town, peak to valley to peak and so on. Aletsch Arena in Switzerland, The Dolomites in Italy, Les Trois Vallees of France – these vast conglomerates of ski lifts and long trails connecting villages are impressive, complicated on a trail map, and exciting to conquer during your visit.
The Lifestyle – Skiing is a tradition, a revered pastime and a lifestyle in Europe’s Alps. Its not just making laps, or an activity on the occasional weekend or holiday. Alpine enthusiasts in the Alps love their mountains, make their homes here, and revere this terrain all year round – from hiking to biking to skiing and sledding. The Swiss and The Austrian are particularly outdoorsy and just love being in the mountains. From a young age with their parents, to old age, you see people engaging in mountain exploring, walking and adventuring in the Alps.
The Lifts – Switzerland is home to Garaventa, Austria – Doppelmayr. The Alps showcase their lift engineering with amazing trams, cable cars and bubble-covered heated six and eight person chairs. Where they place these marvelous lift is also mind blowing, landing large trams on craggy peaks with huge glass lodges at 3,000 meters. The 3-minute Tram connection Lenzerheide to Arosa is fascinating with its two independent 150 person trams and moving loading platforms. Zermatt’s Swarovski crystal bedazzled gondolas are a sight to behold.
The Chalets – modest wooden huts with beautiful balconies, shuttered windows, and large overhanging roofs loaded with snow, these are not postcards of yore but true building styles used to this day. Staying in a chalet, you will find wood burning stoves, native stone and usually a down duvet fluffed atop your simple neat bed, and a hearty breakfast, of yogurt, farm cheese, ham and bread, is served early before you hit the slopes. Often ski hotels have a ski and boot room – with a boot dryer which make me and my feet happy. See Top Swiss Ski Hotels, Top Ski Hotels in Austria, Top Ski Hotels in France, and Top Ski Hotels in Italy.
The Cuisine – You can ski to a mountainside hut, step inside and be greeted by the owner, the very farmer who grazes his sheep here in summer. Their often simple menu is homemade fare with cheese from the cows, and crops from local fields. Hearty plates include Rösti- grated potato baked with cheese, bacon and egg on top, Fondue or Raclette! While the cuisine is not complex, its filling, delicious and wholesome – typically made from scratch. Coffee is a tradition, cappuccino or expresso served with a little something sweet as you ski in mid morning, or following your big lunch. Schnapps and Grappa are “digestives” –moonshine made from juniper, apples, berries, picked from the hillside flora and fauna. Its wicked strong, often tasty but sometimes resembles lighter fluid…but its made with love, so toast “prost” and drink and smile!
The Après Ski – The Austrians love to party after skiing, with drinks and music and dancing often at a bar by the slopes (still; in ski boots) – like the Moosewirt at St Anton, or a sun terrace in the ski village at the base of the slopes. The French like their disco dance parties like La Folie Douce on the slopes at Val D’Isère and Meribel. The Swiss love their Glühwein and sunning themselves at a mountain chalet. The Italians like to sip their Aperol Spritz in their chic ski attire while admiring the scene and themselves – so good to see and to be seen.
Why not to ski the Alps …
The Weather -Skiing is a weather dependent sport, and The Alps create a dramatic environment of every changing conditions. You can have blinding snow, or scorching sun, wind or rain, perhaps all in one day. Much of the skiing is above tree line, so visibility can be a white out with fog or snow. Some years the Alps are blessed with bountiful snow, with huge snowbanks, or there can be snow draught years, where ski resorts with snowmaking survive, but others are extremely limited in their operation.
The Terrain – In the US, ski resort mountains were carefully selected for their northern exposure and natural contours inherent to skiing. Ski industry leaders developed the mountains with the best slopes and aspects, then cut the trails. Take Vail for an example where they designed the mountain and the resort village followed to accommodate the skiers. In some cases, the resulting resort village in the US came out charming, others, not so much. In the Alps, they had summer tourist towns and villages that existed for hiking and summer activities long before the ski terrain. The towns then placed ski lifts up the nearest mountains, sometimes regardless of the viability or fall line of the ski terrain. Then they started connecting lifts to neighboring village with long cable cars or steep t bars – whatever worked. So the terrain is vast, spread out, sometimes huge, not always ideal or convenient, with long traverses (hence snowboarding is less popular in Europe) and crazy lifts spanning deep steep valleys. And there are cliffs, big cliffs, venture “off piste” and you are on your own. There is rarely, if ever, a “danger cliffs” sign. Hire a Guide to safely explore off-piste and truly maximize your time on skis – its worth it!
The Trails – In Europe, ski trails don’t really have names, just a number, and a delineation of poles marking each side, short colored stripes to the left, longer colored stripes to the right (this becomes important in white out conditions).
Blue is easy, Red is intermediate, Black is expert, Yellow is ungroomed.
The prepared pistes lack the character a trail name brings to its run… White Heat and Forever sound more tantalizing, unique and memorable than #5 or 23. North American mountains also have more trails, where in The Alps one lift serves maybe 2 or 3 pistes.
The Skis – The Europeans are traditional alpinist, racing and carving turns are revered. The Swiss all ski on Stockli’s and carve their perfect little turns, so you might look ridiculous on your fat pow skis asking about the off-piste. Interestingly more and more European are finding interest in “free riding” – their term for skiing beyond the prepared groomed pistes… so the shaped ski revolution may change to rocker.. stay tuned. You see far fewer snowboarders in Europe, like 10% or less, it’s just not the rage given that ski touring and traversing on big mountain terrain is just more convenient on two planks than one.
Reservations for lunch – Dining in the Alps is a pastime, and the most reputed huts and chalet reserve their lunch tables in the advance. Mind you, its more than a cafeteria tray, burger and cold fries. So scout at the best lunch huts, most trail maps have a whole section on mountain restaurants, and call ahead for your spot. Lunch menus average about $20 per person, so bring your wallet too, and don’t be in a rush if you want to take part in this authentic alpine experience.
Lift Queues – Lift lines in The Alps are a bit chaotic, compared to the US and Canada with our controlled corrals and lift attendants. You are frequently riding high capacity trams, 100-150 passengers, with a crush to get in, or six to eight passenger high speed chairs with little order as you enter the lift terminal. European lift attendants don’t bother to pair people up or manage the liftlines, they do manage time for their cigarettes however, even while loading chair or dispensing T-Bars.
The Chairlift Conversations – maybe its just me (“chatty chair cathy”) but I find the Swiss in particular to be not overly friendly in lift lines and on the lifts. I love a good ski conversation on my ride up. The Europeans can be downright quiet during their uploads. They are very quick to put down the safety bar however, so be ready immediately upon loading, its not optional, and they raise the bar at the very last moment, not before… it’s the law, and they’re serious and punctual about it.
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jamesdeluxe
Administrator
Nice find. The + section is pretty complete. I'd make the following caveats in red to the - comments
Why not to ski the Alps …
The Terrain – There is rarely, if ever, a “danger cliffs” sign. Maybe 15+ years ago; however, in my experience these days there are lots of signs on inbound terrain with either a) an exclamation point and a written warning ("you are leaving the ski area/continue at your own risk") or b) a graphic of a skier falling upside down over a cliff along with the word "danger" in three or four languages. Still, the signage is not as extensive as in our U.S. nanny state, which is mainly about avoiding legal exposure.
The Trails – In Europe, ski trails don’t really have names, just a number. The prepared pistes lack the character a trail name brings to its run… White Heat and Forever sound more tantalizing, unique and memorable than #5 or 23. Once again, maybe 15+ years ago but for the most part not true anymore. Agreed that naming a trail "#5" isn't very inspiring; however, at the same time, the North American custom of thinking up overly catchy names (like "White Heat") is equally annoying.
The Skis – The Europeans are traditional alpinist, racing and carving turns are revered. The Swiss all ski on Stockli’s and carve their perfect little turns, so you might look ridiculous on your fat pow skis asking about the off-piste. Not true anymore about people looking askance at non-narrow skis, especially at places with extensive big-mountain terrain. For example, I saw lots of people on upper 90 waists and above at Serre Chevalier, even though one could claim that it wasn't the right tool for the general conditions.
Reservations for lunch – Dining in the Alps is a pastime, and the most reputed huts and chalet reserve their lunch tables in the advance. Mind you, its more than a cafeteria tray, burger and cold fries. So scout at the best lunch huts, most trail maps have a whole section on mountain restaurants, and call ahead for your spot. Lunch menus average about $20 per person, so bring your wallet too, and don’t be in a rush if you want to take part in this authentic alpine experience. In my experience, you only need to book a reservation at specific well-known huts and just like in North America, if you show up before noon or after 1:30, there are usually open tables. Also, as EMSC's recent Keystone pic made clear, $20 per person is what you pay for a burger and a drink at a stateside F&B joint so the value equation isn't comparable.
Lift Queues – Lift lines in The Alps are a bit chaotic, compared to the US and Canada with our controlled corrals and lift attendants. You are frequently riding high capacity trams, 100-150 passengers, with a crush to get in, or six to eight passenger high speed chairs with little order as you enter the lift terminal. European lift attendants don’t bother to pair people up or manage the liftlines, they do manage time for their cigarettes however, even while loading chair or dispensing T-B. Agreed about the lack of organization at lifts (no corrals or pairing people in chairs); however, if you don't go during peak vacation periods at mega resorts, 90%+ of the time you're skiing right up to the lifts, same as North America. Also, you're only riding high-capacity trams and chairs at the industrial joints.
The Chairlift – They are very quick to put down the safety bar however, so be ready immediately upon loading, its not optional, and they raise the bar at the very last moment, not before… it’s the law, and they’re serious and punctual about it. True about them putting down the safety bar within two seconds of sitting down; however, western North American skiers (not all but many) need to stop with their dramatic discomfort about using the bar -- that's the way it is at lift-served ski areas all over the world.
Why not to ski the Alps …
The Terrain – There is rarely, if ever, a “danger cliffs” sign. Maybe 15+ years ago; however, in my experience these days there are lots of signs on inbound terrain with either a) an exclamation point and a written warning ("you are leaving the ski area/continue at your own risk") or b) a graphic of a skier falling upside down over a cliff along with the word "danger" in three or four languages. Still, the signage is not as extensive as in our U.S. nanny state, which is mainly about avoiding legal exposure.
The Trails – In Europe, ski trails don’t really have names, just a number. The prepared pistes lack the character a trail name brings to its run… White Heat and Forever sound more tantalizing, unique and memorable than #5 or 23. Once again, maybe 15+ years ago but for the most part not true anymore. Agreed that naming a trail "#5" isn't very inspiring; however, at the same time, the North American custom of thinking up overly catchy names (like "White Heat") is equally annoying.
The Skis – The Europeans are traditional alpinist, racing and carving turns are revered. The Swiss all ski on Stockli’s and carve their perfect little turns, so you might look ridiculous on your fat pow skis asking about the off-piste. Not true anymore about people looking askance at non-narrow skis, especially at places with extensive big-mountain terrain. For example, I saw lots of people on upper 90 waists and above at Serre Chevalier, even though one could claim that it wasn't the right tool for the general conditions.
Reservations for lunch – Dining in the Alps is a pastime, and the most reputed huts and chalet reserve their lunch tables in the advance. Mind you, its more than a cafeteria tray, burger and cold fries. So scout at the best lunch huts, most trail maps have a whole section on mountain restaurants, and call ahead for your spot. Lunch menus average about $20 per person, so bring your wallet too, and don’t be in a rush if you want to take part in this authentic alpine experience. In my experience, you only need to book a reservation at specific well-known huts and just like in North America, if you show up before noon or after 1:30, there are usually open tables. Also, as EMSC's recent Keystone pic made clear, $20 per person is what you pay for a burger and a drink at a stateside F&B joint so the value equation isn't comparable.
Lift Queues – Lift lines in The Alps are a bit chaotic, compared to the US and Canada with our controlled corrals and lift attendants. You are frequently riding high capacity trams, 100-150 passengers, with a crush to get in, or six to eight passenger high speed chairs with little order as you enter the lift terminal. European lift attendants don’t bother to pair people up or manage the liftlines, they do manage time for their cigarettes however, even while loading chair or dispensing T-B. Agreed about the lack of organization at lifts (no corrals or pairing people in chairs); however, if you don't go during peak vacation periods at mega resorts, 90%+ of the time you're skiing right up to the lifts, same as North America. Also, you're only riding high-capacity trams and chairs at the industrial joints.
The Chairlift – They are very quick to put down the safety bar however, so be ready immediately upon loading, its not optional, and they raise the bar at the very last moment, not before… it’s the law, and they’re serious and punctual about it. True about them putting down the safety bar within two seconds of sitting down; however, western North American skiers (not all but many) need to stop with their dramatic discomfort about using the bar -- that's the way it is at lift-served ski areas all over the world.
Terrain: If it's not a designed/named trail/skiroute you are definitely on your own for spotting rocks and other hazards. Many places you can scout while riding chairlifts, but you're not going to know that by looking at terrain compressed trail maps. You have to see it in person.
Skis: Depends on the area. At the intermediate oriented places it's nearly all narrow skis, but not so much at known freeride Meccas like Verbier and Val d'Isere. Still, wide in the Alps is probably anything over 80mm.
Lunch: James nailed that one. But we eat only occasional lunches on our Alps trips due to the high quantity and quality of the breakfasts and dinners, particularly at the half board hotels.
Lift Queues: In the tradeoff between lift capacity and elbow room, nearly everyone in the Alps prioritizes lift capacity. So in our experience lift lines while disorganized are usually short to nonexistent. The big exception, as at Mammoth, is when weather shuts down a bunch of lifts above tree line. The negative of the high lift capacity is excess skier density on piste, often far higher than all but the most urbanized areas in North America. But that density is worst around base areas, particularly late in the day. At most big complexes you can find outlying lifts/terrain with much more elbow room. And of course off piste skier density is low.
Skis: Depends on the area. At the intermediate oriented places it's nearly all narrow skis, but not so much at known freeride Meccas like Verbier and Val d'Isere. Still, wide in the Alps is probably anything over 80mm.
Lunch: James nailed that one. But we eat only occasional lunches on our Alps trips due to the high quantity and quality of the breakfasts and dinners, particularly at the half board hotels.
Lift Queues: In the tradeoff between lift capacity and elbow room, nearly everyone in the Alps prioritizes lift capacity. So in our experience lift lines while disorganized are usually short to nonexistent. The big exception, as at Mammoth, is when weather shuts down a bunch of lifts above tree line. The negative of the high lift capacity is excess skier density on piste, often far higher than all but the most urbanized areas in North America. But that density is worst around base areas, particularly late in the day. At most big complexes you can find outlying lifts/terrain with much more elbow room. And of course off piste skier density is low.
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jamesdeluxe
Administrator
This can't be emphasized enough. When I go to Denver in late March/early April, without an Ikon/Epic Pass my only option for a remotely affordable day ticket on the I-70 corridor is Ski Cooper ($60 Mon-Thurs if you buy in advance). Loveland is $95 midweek. Even Ski Granby is $125! I might as well just go x-c skiing.
I have read that the Vail/Alterra pricing model has helped some of the independents. They can charge $80 - $100 for window tickets, attract day customers and be profitable. But in big markets like Denver/Utah/Tahoe the independents are charging more.
Weathertoski
Member
Top resorts for expert skiers in the Alps depends a bit on what you are looking for but in no particular order, I would say St Anton, Andermatt, , Verbier, Zermatt, Chamonix, L'Espace Killy, (Val d'Isere/Tignes) 3 Valleys (Courchevel, Meribel, Val Thorens etc) Paradiski (Les Arcs/La Plagne), La Grave, Alpe d'Huez, Alagna. Yes I know that's 11 areas but that really does cover all the must ski Alpine areas for experts.Re: Euro Ski Mountains.
I had an old 2000 Outside Magazine ski book that suggested: Chamonix, Val d’sere, Verbier and St.Anton/Arlberg as the the 4 best places for experts to ski in Europe. Generally agree - all are high snowfall areas and the latter 3 are super well connected/off-piste accessible. I have perhaps spent about a week in each of them - some over multiple trips.
I like these lists too:
The Top 7 Ski Resorts in Europe Right Now
The Alps boast some of the top adventure skiing spots in the world, from scrappy under-the-radar locales to couloir-etched slopes with international appeal.
Note the disclaimer on Monterosa/Alagna.
(BTW: I skied Monterosa on way to Courmayeur as a sampler to see whether to come back in a good snow year - 70cm summit base in Alagna this year. Bad year. Do not pre-book)
Another good list:
The Top 10 Ski Resorts in Europe
Discover what a passion for winter really means by schussing in the shadow of the Eiger, chowing down on five-star fondue in a slope-side farmhouse, or partying in Kitzbühel with the world's best skiers.
Fraser’s list
My interest in European skiing was reinvigorated a few seasons (2017) ago after a business sale to a Euro company and my brother doing a trip with me.Weather to ski’s top 10 powder destinations – Europe
Weather to ski’s guide to finding the deepest powder in Europe.
Just some reasons I like traveling to the Alps:
1. Terrain
I have a personal preference for open alpine skiing (some western US areas, most Alps resorts and Chugach/Valdez). And a just slightly lower desire for trees and powder (Japan, BC heli/cat, etc).
Also, I like the big technical 4-6k vertical lines of the Alps and often involving some couloirs.
You generally can find powder many days after a storm - some by self navigating or a guide. Wind is often the destroyer of powder - not competition- in the Alps.
2. Cost - Lifts
And 4 Days at Val d’Isere equals 1 Day at Vail, Breckenridge, Big Sky, Winter Park, Steamboat, etc …. Europe buys a lot for $250.
3. Free ride/Off Piste
It’s easy to split a guide with 2 or 3 people, and still be better off than US lift tickets. I have done a few private guide days at Val d’Isere, Verbier, Chamonix, Courmayeur and groups at St. Anton, Andermatt, La Grave, Engelberg (if you call Tony, Liz and I - a group and not a private). A guide can offer you recommendations for remaining days…
4. Transportation
Plane tickets can be relatively inexpensive to major European ski gateways in mid winter (not much more as a non-Denver/SLC location) and car rentals are less than US. Parking - still lots of free lift side lots at some resorts. Just look.
5. Costs - Accomodations - especially Half Board
Walking distance (to lifts) accommodations (with breakfast and parking) are relatively inexpensive. Courmayeur was a shared room with business school friend <50 euros. Also, easy to make adjustments before mid-February depending on snow.
Breakfast can be my mountain lunch
- ate my ham/cheese already.
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The only other destination that as good as a value as Europe is interior BC/Alberta - the Powder Highway resorts. They are relatively cheaper than their US counterparts. Also you can pick the places that have the best snow whether coming from Calgary or Spokane or Kelowna.
Japan is the only destination I visited where it snowed daily for a week (2”-12”) and definitely a place to experience once.
Of those, the ones with the most extreme, cultish expert terrain (again in no particular order) would be Chamonix, La Grave, Andermatt, St Anton, Verbier. However, if you were an American expert skier who had one trip of a lifetime, and one only, and wanted to hedge your bets in advance, it would have to be Val d'Isere, at least from from a purely skiing point of view. If you wanted the most complete Alpine experience though I would always recommend Zermatt as it also has exceptional charm, scenery and mountain restaurants - in addition to world-class skiing.