Who Skis at "Huntah"? Somebody must!

[Harvey]

...the limiting factor is almost always compressed air. At most eastern mountains, water is a near-infinite resource. The difficulty is getting enough compressed air to make snow in high humidity near the freezing point. The systems are designed so they pump enough water to run all the compressors in optimal conditions (cold & low humidity) so it's highly unlikely that you'd have a water problem. A resort that relies on fan guns may have a different dynamic but most eastern resorts are still relying on piped compressed air and traditional air/water snow guns.

He's right - it's not about the water. Gore is tapping the Hudson. It's essentially an unlimited source of water. But snowmaking is still pretty marginal at Gore.

I'll never forget years ago going to Kmart and parking in a lot next to a row of huge buildings....and they were all HUMMING with big diesels. I'm assuming those engines were generating electricity for compressors? I could be thinking of Okemo, but I'm sure it was a VT mountain with big league snowmaking.

 

[Geoff]

...the limiting factor is almost always compressed air. At most eastern mountains, water is a near-infinite resource. The difficulty is getting enough compressed air to make snow in high humidity near the freezing point. The systems are designed so they pump enough water to run all the compressors in optimal conditions (cold & low humidity) so it's highly unlikely that you'd have a water problem. A resort that relies on fan guns may have a different dynamic but most eastern resorts are still relying on piped compressed air and traditional air/water snow guns.

He's right - it's not about the water. Gore is tapping the Hudson. It's essentially an unlimited source of water. But snowmaking is still pretty marginal at Gore.

I'll never forget years ago going to Kmart and parking in a lot next to a row of huge buildings....and they were all HUMMING with big diesels. I'm assuming those engines were generating electricity for compressors? I could be thinking of Okemo, but I'm sure it was a VT mountain with big league snowmaking.

At KMart, the diesel compressors aren't in buildings.

Most of them are rentals that look like this but are on wheels:

 

[flyover]

In the east, the limiting factor is almost always compressed air.

I have vague memories of some big fights in the 80s and 90s in VT when ski areas started to want to take more water out of streams and rivers for snowmaking than state regulators would initially allow. Does anybody know how (or whether) that issue got resolved?

 

[Tony Crocker]

water supply is the most critical determinant in how much snow a ski area can make.

http://www.sundayriver.com/TheMountain/Snowmaking.html

 

[jasoncapecod]

Over the last few years Hunter has been installing Fan Guns on their major runs. Didn't Mt Snow Make a huge Fan Gun purchase too? Much cheaper and more efficient to run.

 

[Marc_C]

water supply is the most critical determinant in how much snow a ski area can make.

http://www.sundayriver.com/TheMountain/Snowmaking.html

Tony, you're missing the point.
Water supply = determining factor in total amount of snow that can be made.
Air capacity = determining factor in how much snow can be made per unit time.

In getting terrain open or resurfacing after a nasty weather event, an area's compressor capacity is by far the limiting factor in how fast that can be accomplished.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Marc C is right about that, which makes Hunter such a snowmaking beast. I've only experienced it once when they had every single gun blasting after a really brutal rain/freeze event. I took two runs and asked for a voucher when my goggles were frozen solid after 100 vertical feet -- that day, they had the moisture setting on "extra wet."

And as Harvey points out, you can have all the capacity in the world, but if you're not willing to use it (for whatever reason), it's just a marketing stat.

I've mentioned this before... even though I understand that snowmaking is a necessary evil in the East (and at certain places in the West), skiing trails lined with guns really upsets my aesthetic sensibilities.
[-(

 

[flyover]

I understand that snowmaking is a necessary evil in the East (and at certain places in the West), skiing trails lined with guns really upsets my aesthetic sensibilities.

Agreed. I can't stand daytime snowmaking. I simply hate skiing (or even riding a chairlift) under the guns, and will go waaaaay out of my way not to do it. I have always been simply amazed at the number of people I have seen skiing in close proximity to blasting guns. Sorry, but "fresh" tracks in man-made aren't worth the sandblasted face or the hearing loss.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

I can't stand daytime snowmaking.

That goes without saying, but I take it one step further. Even if the guns aren't being used, just seeing them standing there is a huge buzzkill for me -- it upsets the manmade illusion of a natural environment (grooming, lifts, snowmaking, etc.).
:?

 

[EMSC]

Tony, you're missing the point.
Water supply = determining factor in total amount of snow that can be made.
Air capacity = determining factor in how much snow can be made per unit time.

I don't think Tony is missing the point. Water supply is key. While a lot of resorts are still on the water/air system, virtually all now have at least a handfull of fan guns with more of those all the time. If Gore didn't have a pipeline to the Hudson, how much snow could they make? Having access to that water source is Key. Same goes for Mt Snow - the only reason Haystack was ever kept alive by ASC was for the water rights/storage to use primarily at Mt Snow (there's a pipeline between the two). Even places like Greek Peak which has a creek at it's base and had always been reliable previously have had drought years to the point that in the early 2000's GP had to drill two very deep wells for water to run ANY snowmaking and have any chance of opening at all.

Which is not to say compressed air is not important, but you can make snow without very much air using fan guns which are ever more popular/efficient. You are not going to make any snow without access rights to water - even in the east (big VT battles over snowmaking draws from streams in late 90's as I recall. Sugarbush I think was one of those battles). The biggest issue for compressed air is the cost of it. Way more expensive than pumping water, way more difficult to deal with as well (compression massively heats the air which then has to be cooled again to use in snowmaking, etc..., etc...). For that matter the air is 'free' with no arguments over who gets how much. Jus tinstall more compressors/piping.

Then there are pipe sizing and junction issues out on the hill, etc... that all go into determining how much you can make at any one time. There will always be a bottleneck in some portion of the system relative to other portions - be it pumping, compression, pipe systems, physical guns available, or any other number of issues.

 

[Marc_C]

But this whole discussion started by talking about "snowmaking intensity" per acre, but erroneously used only water in GPH as the metric. Some westerners were also ignoring the reality of the differences in the difficulty of making snow in dry, cold conditions versus high humidity in marginal temps. The fact is that there are far more air/water snow guns at Eastern areas than there are fan guns. So realistically, at most Eastern areas, most of the time, the limit on "snowmaking intensity" is the air supply. You can pump all the water you want, but if you can't disperse it (and get the aid of adiabatic decompression to chill it), you're not going to have a lot of intensity going on.

 

[EMSC]

only water in GPH as the metric

Not certain I agree that there is any better generic metric. Lots (if not most) of eastern areas are now 'mixed mode' snowmaking (as are most western ski areas too). See Hunter as an example in the pic below - lots of shiny new fan guns on large sections of their hill. One can also easily argue that water GPH is not valid since one area may make wet sludge snow and the second pure 'fluffy' cream. Similar 'intensity'/runs covered, but one would be putting out much more GPH. Basically there is no perfect single number to use. As you point out:

if you can't disperse it

Which, you'd be surprised just how often that that issue is all about the piping runs and junctions on the hill and nothing to do with either the pumps or compressors (especially so at smaller areas).

Hunter web cam shows quite a bit of fan guns there too.

 

[Harvey]

Surprised this thread hasn't been broken out a few more times by El Moderato.

Would LOVE to see what Tony would name the thread that starts with the wind power post by Joe.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Surprised this thread hasn't been broken out a few more times

I left the snowmaking discussion here due to Hunter's preeminence in that department.

The wind power by harvey44 is here now: viewtopic.php?t=8265

 

[Admin]

Surprised this thread hasn't been broken out a few more times by El Moderato.

Fer gawd's sake, don't encourage him. :roll:

 

[Geoff]

Far from a specialist on snowmaking capacity...

Kmart...Sunday River is capacity is definitely up there. Tremblant has a lot, often probably not in the same league as K and SR.
Per Acres? Mont St-Bruno near Montreal?
Other impressive places would included St-Sauveur and Bromont.

In terms of compressor capacity to run the most simultaneous air/water guns, Killington is slightly ahead of Sunday River.

After an eastern thaw, the more interesting number is probably the ratio of simultaneous snow guns to total acres. There are probably a lot of smaller ski areas in the east that can do a pretty good job of quickly resurfacing their whole mountain after a big thaw. At a Killington or a Sunday River, the places sprawl so much that much of the mountain will be in pretty tough shape for days.

 

[sheahunter]

Over the last few years Hunter has been installing Fan Guns on their major runs. Didn't Mt Snow Make a huge Fan Gun purchase too? Much cheaper and more efficient to run.

In fact, almost all the new guns at Hunter have been air/ water, low e guns. All the fan jets are really old HDK's. They did buy a couple oscillating fans guns last year.

 

[kingslug]

When comparing the 3 resorts in that area, Hunter Belleayre, and Plattekill, Hunter is far superior in many aspects. Best terrain, best snowmaking, best lifts. Bell has its merits but its runs are pretty much all the same. They do get more natural snow though. Plattekill gets the most natural snow and has some good runs. Its the least modern of the three but thats what makes it special...and its empty most of the time. They have very limited snowmaking but it gets better every year. Best tree skiing out of the three and cheapest. If you could only transplant Hunter to Platts location you would have the perfect resort for the area.