Ski Area Count 2019

Topics of a general nature regarding snowsports, which don't easily fit into one of our other Liftlines categories. This is also the place to post Letters to the Editor.

Moderator: Tony Crocker

Re: Ski Area Count 2019

Postby Patrick » Sat Apr 27, 2019 2:44 pm

jamesdeluxe wrote:
Patrick wrote:Never ever: Massif du Sud and Mont Édouard (been on the list for over a decade)

Interesting that you missed those two ski areas; they're easily in my Quebec Top 5.


Almost went a few times at Edouard, but it didn't pan out. Lucky Luke and I spoke many times of going to MDS and I had planned to ski one day on our Spring Break in 2009 (Charlevoix to Gray Rocks' farewell), but the day we had planned to drive on the South shore, MDS was closed due to the forecasted rain.

Always based on distance versus close and easily accessible top ski areas in the East. To get to those ski areas from Ottawa, you have to plan a few days, Mont Edouard is a 7 hour drive versus a maximum of 5 for all the major New England ski areas.
Ski Mad World
A blog of MadPat's World: A History of Skiing Geography
http://madpatski.wordpress.com
User avatar
Patrick
 
Posts: 4780
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:19 am
Location: The Great Trip 2006
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

Re: Ski Area Count 2019

Postby EMSC » Tue May 07, 2019 12:35 pm

Patrick's is definitely and informative list.

I have never heard of more than half of his Quebec list. Must a be a huge number of very small places, since I thought I have heard of a fair number of even medium sized ones up that way (half question/half comment).
User avatar
EMSC
 
Posts: 2297
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 6:54 pm
Location: Front Range of Colorado

Re: Ski Area Count 2019

Postby Tony Crocker » Sun May 19, 2019 8:57 pm

jamesdeluxe wrote:The following comment is only of interest to those nutcases who keep count of their visits --

A few weeks back on Alpinforum, there was a discussion of what constitutes a ski area given how there are so many gigantic interconnected circuits in the Alps composed of what were at one point separate lift-served mountains. For example, should the Portes du Soleil be considered one ski area or should you list all the separate components that in the past were self-contained (Les Gets, Morzine, Avoriaz, etc.).

One solution offered that makes sense to me is: there has to be lift access in both directions; thus, the Portes du Soleil should be one area (I've divided mine out into the French and Swiss sectors); however, Mont Chery is separate. Westendorf was separate when I visited in the early 00s; however, it is now connected to the Skiwelt in both directions. OTOH, Arosa and Lenzerheide should be considered separate ski areas connected by a tram. Same deal with Whistler and Blackcomb. Likewise for Diavolezza and Lagalb even though they're physically very close together (connected by a moving carpet in one direction). Tony, where does Fieberbrunn stand compared to Saalbach-Hinterglemm? Haven't been there since they've been connected.

That's going to be my criteria moving forward unless I can be talked out of it.


Somehow I missed this when originally posted.

Doesn't the tram at Arosa-Lenzerheide constitute there has to be lift access in both directions? Perhaps that criterion should be modified to: there has to be lift and SKI access in both directions? I agree with James' implication that a connecting transport lift with no connecting pistes is a strong indicator that areas should be separate. There are quite a few others in the Alps: Lech-Warth, Les Arcs-La Plagne, Kitzbuhel-Pass Thurn for example.

As far as Portes du Soleil is concerned, I don't see Morzine/Les Gets as connected to Avoriaz when it's a 10 minute bus ride across town from one base to the other, at least as much hassle as Mont Chery to the other side of Les Gets. I also say being a different country (Samnaun, Swiss side of Portes du Soleil) means a separate area (boundary is obviously defined). You also have an option for cheaper single area tickets at Avoriaz and Chatel, and there are big banners at the boundary point reminding skiers where they are. So I would would go with 4 areas at Portes du Soleil (Swiss side being the 4th) based upon the ticket boundaries, which leaves Mont Chery as part of Morzine/Les Gets.

Subjectively the bigger the ski complex, the more I lean toward separations, but there also needs to be an easily definable geographic boundary. To me Klein Matterhorn vs. the rest of Zermatt is a direct analogy to Whistler/Blackcomb, two huge by both scale and vertical areas connected only at the base (prior to Peak-to-Peak at W/B). In general I'm slightly more inclined to separate the close calls than James, though he separated Diavolezza/Lagalb and I didn't. I've left Fieberbrunn and Westendorf separate as they are both substantial in size with clear cut geographic boundaries.

The Dolomites must be the most difficult region to partition. The Dolomite Superski map shows 12 areas, which are likely based upon lift ownership like the 7 in the Arlberg. Almost any division there is subjective.

I also grandfather cases where I skied areas separate before they were joined, Snow Summit and Bear Mt being the notable case. I should have kept Mt. High and Holiday Hill (now East) separate because I skied both when they were two areas before 1981. But in those early days I wasn't thinking about such details so never tracked my skiing between the two sides during the rest of the 1980's or since. The Big Bear merger was in 2002 and I continue to track those separately.
http://bestsnow.net
Ski Records
Season length: 21 months, Nov. 29, 2010 - July 2, 2012
Days in one year: 80 from Nov. 29, 2010 - Nov. 17, 2011
Season vertical: 1,610K in 2016-17
Season powder: 291K in 2011-12
User avatar
Tony Crocker
 
Posts: 10916
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:37 am
Location: Avatar: Charlotte Bay, Antarctica 2011
Location: Glendale, California

Re: Ski Area Count 2019

Postby Patrick » Sun May 19, 2019 11:57 pm

EMSC wrote:Patrick's is definitely and informative list.

I have never heard of more than half of his Quebec list. Must a be a huge number of very small places, since I thought I have heard of a fair number of even medium sized ones up that way (half question/half comment).


Well, there were a lot more 40 years ago. The total number of Quebec ski areas is now somewhere around 75, it used be like 110-120. A bit of history, similar to the North East, many little towns had their own local hill. What else are you going to do in Winter to have fun? Okay, nevermind, forget I mentioned that as it wasn't rare for rural French Canadian families to have 15-20 kids rural in the 1930-40s.

You didn't have to drive anywhere, snow was there. If I take the 4 closest ski areas from Ottawa (all within 25 miles from downtown), they are all between 500-650ft vertical. About 20% of my Quebec list are areas somewhere between 1500-2500ft vertical.
Ski Mad World
A blog of MadPat's World: A History of Skiing Geography
http://madpatski.wordpress.com
User avatar
Patrick
 
Posts: 4780
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:19 am
Location: The Great Trip 2006
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

Re: Ski Area Count 2019

Postby jamesdeluxe » Mon May 20, 2019 4:30 am

Patrick wrote:it wasn't rare for rural French Canadian families to have 15-20 kids rural in the 1930-40s.

The ubiquity and influence of the catholic church in Quebec back then always blows me away. I remember a scene from Deny Arcand's "The Barbarian Invasions" when a priest takes a visitor into a huge warehouse filled with statues and other ephemera from hundreds of decommissioned churches.
User avatar
jamesdeluxe
 
Posts: 3793
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 3:19 pm
Location: South Orange, NJ

Re: Ski Area Count 2019

Postby jamesdeluxe » Mon May 20, 2019 7:28 am

Tony Crocker wrote:Perhaps that criterion should be modified to: there has to be lift and SKI access in both directions? I agree with James' implication that a connecting transport lift with no connecting pistes is a strong indicator that areas should be separate.

Agreed with your suggestion. At the same time, I guess my original point about separating Alps ski areas is that it's easy to fall down the rabbit hole and split hairs -- and the next thing you know, Marc C is (perhaps justifiably) snarking it up about us needing to get a real life.

Kitzbühel, for example: I labeled the entire circuit as one ski area however:
-- Isn't Pass Thurn connected via the Zweitausender lift?
-- I skied the Bichalm sector, which was lift-served during our visit 16 years ago, but is now touring/cat-skiing only.
-- The 3S tram (same as the one at Whistler/Blackcomb) connects two sectors joined only by a ski route (#34) in one direction.
-- Kitzbüheler Horn is completely separated from the rest of the circuit by the village.
User avatar
jamesdeluxe
 
Posts: 3793
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 3:19 pm
Location: South Orange, NJ

Re: Ski Area Count 2019

Postby Tony Crocker » Mon May 20, 2019 1:06 pm

Everything east of that 3S tram (Barenbadkogel, Zweitausender, etc.) I defined as part of Pass Thurn. That's what's logical geographically, though perhaps James knows better than I what the locals call that interconnection of lifts and pistes. Kitzbüheler Horn (which we did not ski) would be a third area.

I cited the Dolomites as a good example of
jamesdeluxe wrote:fall down the rabbit hole and split hairs

I could explain how I divided our days there, but many people could easily decide differently.

In my case, I track both day count and vertical, and I want the end result to make sense for both. I've designed my spreadsheet to handle skiing two areas in one day, but I would have make manual and arbitrary adjustments for more than two.

jamesdeluxe wrote:needing to get a real life.

The spreadsheet is clearly a timesaver in the long run. There was plenty of upfront work to set it up in 2007, but looking up past history to answer questions or compare to current/recent seasons is very easy now. I'm fairly sure Patrick went through a similar process a decade ago to help set up his Ski Mad World website.
http://bestsnow.net
Ski Records
Season length: 21 months, Nov. 29, 2010 - July 2, 2012
Days in one year: 80 from Nov. 29, 2010 - Nov. 17, 2011
Season vertical: 1,610K in 2016-17
Season powder: 291K in 2011-12
User avatar
Tony Crocker
 
Posts: 10916
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:37 am
Location: Avatar: Charlotte Bay, Antarctica 2011
Location: Glendale, California

Re: Ski Area Count 2019

Postby jamesdeluxe » Tue May 21, 2019 7:30 am

Tony Crocker wrote:I've designed my spreadsheet to handle skiing two areas in one day

As long as I ski a few hours somewhere, that counts as a day in my book. It's too much work to parse whether I skied a half or full day. In any event, it's very rare that I ski more than one area during a single day, even at a place like St. Moritz, where it's relatively easy (a short bus ride) if you're so inclined. Something like the day in February when I skied both Wurzeralm and Hinterstoder, where I had to drive 25 minutes to transfer to the other, is an anomaly.
User avatar
jamesdeluxe
 
Posts: 3793
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 3:19 pm
Location: South Orange, NJ

Re: Ski Area Count 2019

Postby Tony Crocker » Wed May 22, 2019 1:31 pm

jamesdeluxe wrote:As long as I ski a few hours somewhere, that counts as a day in my book.

I agree that short days of a couple of hours, or backcountry days resulting in one run are still a ski day. But what happens at the end of the season when you add them up? If you ski two areas in one day, your season total day count will be overstated if you count both as one day.
http://bestsnow.net
Ski Records
Season length: 21 months, Nov. 29, 2010 - July 2, 2012
Days in one year: 80 from Nov. 29, 2010 - Nov. 17, 2011
Season vertical: 1,610K in 2016-17
Season powder: 291K in 2011-12
User avatar
Tony Crocker
 
Posts: 10916
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:37 am
Location: Avatar: Charlotte Bay, Antarctica 2011
Location: Glendale, California

Re: Ski Area Count 2019

Postby Patrick » Thu May 23, 2019 12:21 am

Tony Crocker wrote:
jamesdeluxe wrote:As long as I ski a few hours somewhere, that counts as a day in my book.

I agree that short days of a couple of hours, or backcountry days resulting in one run are still a ski day. But what happens at the end of the season when you add them up? If you ski two areas in one day, your season total day count will be overstated if you count both as one day.


Well, I keep track for myself.

For example:
One outing overlapping more than one ski area (1 lift ticket). Also counts as one ski area visited (Brévent-Flégère): 1 ski day at 1 ski area. I believe I counted the ski areas in the Jungfrau as 2 separate even if I wrote 4 different places.

30 Je, 27 Mar 03 Le Brévent-Flégère FRA
20 Ma, 11 Mar 03 Mannlichen-Kl. Scheidegg (Grindelwald) SUI
21 Me, 12 Mar 03 Schilthorn-Murren SUI
22 Je, 13 Mar 03 Kl. Scheidegg (Wengen) SUI

One outing for overlapping dates. 1 ski day at 1 ski area

19 Ma, 31 Dec 13# Titus NY
#overlapping days - skiing into the New Year, Jan 1.

Two outing at the same or different hill (one or two lift tickets or special pass): counted as one ski day. 1 ski day at 2 or more ski area.

5 Me, 12 Dec 07 Cascades QC day-night
39 Me, 31 Jan 18 Ste-Marie / Edelweiss QC Day & night

It is rare that my numbers don't add up, but there have been a few exceptions in the last 38 seasons I've been keeping track. Bottom line is that my total ski outings have the exact same weight. From 1 run to 12 hours of skiing = only count as 1 ski day.
Ski Mad World
A blog of MadPat's World: A History of Skiing Geography
http://madpatski.wordpress.com
User avatar
Patrick
 
Posts: 4780
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2004 6:19 am
Location: The Great Trip 2006
Location: Ottawa, Ontario

Re: Ski Area Count 2019

Postby jamesdeluxe » Thu May 23, 2019 4:46 am

Tony Crocker wrote:what happens at the end of the season when you add them up? If you ski two areas in one day, your season total day count will be overstated if you count both as one day.
Patrick wrote:Well, I keep track for myself.

Agreed. My day total is similar to what ski areas say about trail ratings and how they're specific only to that mountain, i.e. a double-black diamond at Snowbird will be different than one at Camelback in the Poconos.

As mentioned, skiing two separate mountains in the same day is something I do rarely if ever and with the Wurzeralm/Hinterstoder exception given above: in the 3-ish hours I spent at each, I covered 90% of their on-piste skiing along with a handful of offpiste runs. The only way I could've improved on the experience would've been to have a local show me less obvious offpiste terrain. Therefore, I got a pretty good overview of them; ergo, they count as full days. OTOH, I counted Diavolezza/Lagalb as one day because I only did two T2B runs at Lagalb due to poor visibility and scratchy conditions as opposed to Diavolezza, which was in very good shape.
User avatar
jamesdeluxe
 
Posts: 3793
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2004 3:19 pm
Location: South Orange, NJ

Re: Ski Area Count 2019

Postby Tony Crocker » Thu May 23, 2019 9:55 am

jamesdeluxe wrote:The only way I could've improved on the experience would've been to have a local show me less obvious offpiste terrain. Therefore, I got a pretty good overview of them; ergo, they count as full days.

That still doesn't answer the question of whether your end of season day count includes that experience as one ski day or two.

I didn't fully understand Patrick's examples but I agree with his conclusion:
Patrick wrote:From 1 run to 12 hours of skiing = only count as 1 ski day.

I agree quantity is irrelevant, as where to draw that line would be a real rabbit hole. I think one of my combined days at Brighton/Solitude was over 30K, but that's still one ski day.

I suspect James and perhaps Patrick might want to answer the question, "How many days have you skied at Area X?" by counting each day as one even if part of that day was spent at another area. In my case, I place higher priority in making the numbers add up, and have so programmed my spreadsheet so I don't have to think about it anymore or make manual adjustments.

With the advent of Mountain Collective and Ikon, my allocation of half a day to each area skied in the same day makes even more sense. 21 of my LCC days since 2014 on those passes have been divided between Alta and Snowbird. Counting those as one day at each would be a significant and systematic overstatement. Lifetime I have 35 days split between 2 areas.
http://bestsnow.net
Ski Records
Season length: 21 months, Nov. 29, 2010 - July 2, 2012
Days in one year: 80 from Nov. 29, 2010 - Nov. 17, 2011
Season vertical: 1,610K in 2016-17
Season powder: 291K in 2011-12
User avatar
Tony Crocker
 
Posts: 10916
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2004 10:37 am
Location: Avatar: Charlotte Bay, Antarctica 2011
Location: Glendale, California

Re: Ski Area Count 2019

Postby vondess » Wed May 20, 2020 2:05 am

There are many ski areas in Maine and British Columbia that are of interest; however, from where I live (15 minutes from EWR), traveling to the Alps is less onerous and a better fit for me culturally.
vondess
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:20 am
Location: London

Re: Ski Area Count 2019

Postby vondess » Thu May 21, 2020 8:17 am

I update at the end of season, but below is a manual edit of that with what I recall from this year. I'm sure I have the areas right, day counts in the 3rd column might be off in a few cases.
vondess
 
Posts: 3
Joined: Thu Apr 23, 2020 1:20 am
Location: London

Re: Ski Area Count 2019

Postby jimk » Fri Jun 26, 2020 2:06 pm

Here is a philosophical question for all you firsttrackers: would you rather ski one day each at 1000 different ski areas. The ski areas would be of mixed quality from grade A+ to grade D-. Or, would you rather ski 1000 days at one grade B quality ski area? Why?

My ski area count as of 2020: 95 ski areas
USA
California
Alpine Meadows
Heavenly
Homewood
Kirkwood
Sierra at Tahoe
Sugarbowl
Squaw Valley

Colorado
Arapahoe Basin
Aspen Highlands
Aspen Mtn
Beaver Creek
Breckenridge
Copper Mtn
Crested Butte
Eldora
Keystone
Loveland
Snowmass
Steamboat
Telluride
Vail
Winter Park

Maine
Mt Abram
Saddleback
Sugarloaf
Sunday River

Maryland
Wisp

Massachusetts
Wachusett Mtn

Montana
Big Sky

New Hampshire
Attitash
Black Mtn
Cannon Mtn
Gunstock
Loon Mtn
Waterville Valley
Wildcat

New Mexico
Red River
Ski Santa Fe
Taos

New York
Gore Mtn
Hunter Mtn
Plattekill
Whiteface
Windham

Oregon
Mt. Bachelor

Pennsylvania
Blue Knob (first place skied, Dec 1967)
Camelback
Hidden Valley
Laurel Mtn
Liberty Mtn
Seven Springs
Ski Roundtop
Whitetail

Utah
Alta
Brighton
Deer Valley
Park City
Powder Mtn
Snowbasin
Snowbird
Solitude

Vermont
Killington
Mad River Glen
Magic Mtn
Mt Snow
Okemo
Pico
Smugglers Notch
Stratton Mtn
Stowe
Sugarbush
Suicide Six

Virginia
Bryce Mtn
Massanutten
Ski Cherokee (lost)
The Homestead
Wintergreen

West Virginia
Canaan Valley
Timberline
Snowshoe

Wyoming
Grand Targhee
Jackson Hole

Canada
AB
Lake Louise
Mt. Norquay

BC
Banff-Sunshine
Revelstoke
Whistler

Quebec
Le Massif
Mont Sainte Anne

Europe
Austria
Bad Hofgastein
Flachau
Saalbach-Hinterglemm
Zauchensee
Zell am See
jimk
 
Posts: 74
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:58 am
Location: NoVa

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests


All content herein copyright © 1999-2017 First Tracks!! Online Media

Forums Terms & Conditions of Use