Can Snowmaking Compensate for Climate Change?

[Tony Crocker]

The link above says:

Our current snowmaking system had reached end-of-life status and needed an upgrade.

I do not think Alta would open without Sunnyside and probably Collins or Wildcat. I do not know if Alta has snowmaking to the top of those lifts, and suspect would not open until there is natural snow in those locations. Base area snowmaking is primarily to keep high traffic areas from getting chewed up. The transfer tow area is flat and in sun nearly all day, so not surprised about that. I've sent an e-mail to our former admin.

 

[snowave]

We've discussed this technology before; however, I didn't know that it had a proprietary brand name:

Snow Secure, a Pioneer in Large-Scale Snow Storage and Snowfarming Solutions, Named to TIME Best Inventions 2025 - SnowBrains

Snow Secure, a pioneer in large-scale snow storage and snowfarming solutions, has been named to TIME Best Inventions 2025.

snowbrains.com

View attachment 47759

Bogus Basin apparently tested it out this summer, and it looks like it worked. I could easily see this becoming common place in the future.

Snow Secure at Bogus Basin

Your Bogus Basin team does anything to extend your time on snow, even if it means storing it over the summer season! Last summer, we experimented with Snow Secure – a snow storage technology invented in Finland – and it worked! Keep reading to learn about this pilot program, and our big plans...

bogusbasin.org

 

[Tony Crocker]

That Bogus Basin article is quite interesting. It claims they have the second largest snowmaking system in the state. When NASJA was there is 2010, they said their water supply was limited so they did not have a large system. But considering other Idaho areas, it;s quite possible the snowmaking is modest yet still second only to Sun Valley.

Despite the comments about Finland, it is impressive the Snow Secure system worked so well in Idaho's lower latitude and higher summer temperatures.

 

[Marc Guido]

The link above says:

I do not think Alta would open without Sunnyside and probably Collins or Wildcat. I do not know if Alta has snowmaking to the top of those lifts, and suspect would not open until there is natural snow in those locations. Base area snowmaking is primarily to keep high traffic areas from getting chewed up. The transfer tow area is flat and in sun nearly all day, so not surprised about that. I've sent an e-mail to our former admin.

Alta opens without Sunnyside somewhat often, actually. Many years, if the snow pack is thin it's just Collins and Wildcat.

Alta has snowmaking top to bottom on just about every blue and green groomer off every lift, other than Supreme. It's holiday insurance. So that means:

Collins: Mambo, Meadow, Corkscrew, Schuss Gully.

Wildcat: Stimulation to lower Aggie's.

Sugarloaf: Sugar Bowl, Devils Elbow, Roller Coaster.

Sunnyside: Home Run, Easy Mile.

It also runs up the first tower or two of Supreme to cover the flats near the very bottom. The rest of Supreme is natural snow only.

However, the capacity, and the number of guns that can be run concurrently is extremely limited. First on the agenda is to get Mambo/Meadow/Corkscrew covered, to get open. Then Devils Elbow to add Sugarloaf. Next is Home Run to get Sunnyside spinning, Stimulation and Schuss, and Roller Coaster. About a week before Christmas, they're done for the season and the guns get put away. I've never seen them make snow after Christmas.

Alta delaying opening is not rare at all. I've seen it happen numerous times in my two decades there. Some years, by the third week of December I'm so sick of Mambo I could spit. Then again, I've also seen them open with the High T, Backside, etc all open right from opening day in November. It just depends on the temperature and storm cycle from mid-October on. In some years autumn is cold and wet, other years it's warm and dry until someone upstairs flips the switch.

 

[snowtrekker]

longtime "snow from heaven, not from hoses" tagline.

By Mary Forgione
Jan. 4, 2011 12 AM PT
Los Angeles Times Daily Travel & Deal blogger
It’s been a fantastic early season for Southern California ski resorts, with some selling out over the holiday week. Now the diminutive Mt. Waterman (whose motto is “Snow from heaven, not from hoses”) has received some of the white stuff and plans to open at 9 a.m. Friday for the first time this season.

There used to be Mt. Waterman stickers and patches with that tagline, but I couldn't find any online.

This was the logo on a shirt I bought in 2011:

 

[Tony Crocker]

However, the capacity, and the number of guns that can be run concurrently is extremely limited. First on the agenda is to get Mambo/Meadow/Corkscrew covered, to get open. Then Devils Elbow to add Sugarloaf. Next is Home Run to get Sunnyside spinning, Stimulation and Schuss, and Roller Coaster. About a week before Christmas, they're done for the season and the guns get put away. I've never seen them make snow after Christmas.

No surprise Guido knows not only where but the sequence of snowmaking openings, much as I do for Mammoth and Snow Summit.

Big Bear works like eastern areas, will run snowmaking at least well into February for offsetting drought and/or warm weather. I always thought Mammoth puts the guns away after the first major dumps. But now they have towers on Broadway and Stump Alley that never get taken down. And snowmaking may still be used to help build the terrain parks by chairs 4 and 6.

Useful stats for snowmaking would be how many guns can be run concurrently, and for how long.

 

[MarzNC]

Useful stats for snowmaking would be how many guns can be run concurrently, and for how long.

That's where small southeast resorts can be impressive.

After Massanutten built a 2-mile long water pipe from the valley to increase water availability, added more pumping capacity, and cut new upper mountain trails, it's common for there to be 100+ snowguns on at the same time for 36-hour to 48-hour non-stop snowmaking when a short cold window happens. Most of the snowguns are automated, fund to watch all of them turn on a given trail within a few minutes.

Wintergreen installed a fully automated snowmaking system at least 15 years ago.

 

[MarzNC]

It also runs up the first tower or two of Supreme to cover the flats near the very bottom. The rest of Supreme is natural snow only.

I noticed new fan guns near the base of Supreme last season. Do you remember when snowmaking was first installed near Alf's?

Was one reason the Supreme triple closed a week before other lifts was because the run out didn't have a base quite deep enough by mid-April? Most of my skiing at Alta has been in April the last 15 years. Only skied Alta in early season once, in December 2020.

About a week before Christmas, they're done for the season and the guns get put away. I've never seen them make snow after Christmas.

When a friend arranged for a ride in an Alta groomer one April, the man we went with has been on the snowmaking team during early season. He was from Buffalo who was working as an IT professional after college. After a few years, he hated his job. Decided to see what would be possible at a ski resort out west. Got hired as a snowmaker with no experience. Proved himself to be a good worker on that team and got hired as a groomer for the rest of the season.

 

[snowave]

This was the logo on a shirt I bought in 2011:

View attachment 48130

I had one of those as well, but the emblem on mine was red and blue, I think.I don't remember when I bought mine, but I wanna say 2004-2008 ish.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

This was the logo on a shirt I bought in 2011:

I think.I don't remember when I bought mine, but I wanna say 2004-2008 ish.

Out of idle curiosity, I AI'd to see which ski area was using that slogan first and it came up with a "Financial Times ski piece from October 25, 1997 quotes a Targhee guide saying, 'We get snow from heaven, not from hoses!' in the context of describing the resort’s natural snow." If that's the case, you have to wonder why GT didn't issue a cease and desist. Probably because a) it was a non-litigious Mom and Pop-style ski area, and b) no one outside of Los Angeles was aware of Waterman.

Ultimately: who cares, I know.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Was one reason the Supreme triple closed a week before other lifts was because the run out didn't have a base quite deep enough by mid-April?

Definitely not. It's just the way they phase down operations at the end of the season. And if they do a bonus weekend only or two after daily operation stops, Sugarloaf and Sunnyside also close.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Mt. Waterman’s use of that tagline dates at least to when I first skied there in 1978.

 

[MarzNC]

Definitely not. It's just the way they phase down operations at the end of the season. And if they do a bonus weekend only or two after daily operation stops, Sugarloaf and Sunnyside also close.

I've stayed at Alta Lodge the last week or two of the season annually since 2010. What's been happening since Supreme was replaced has been different than with the triple. That's why I asked about when snowmaking was installed near Alf's. Except for the April with crazy wet slides, Supreme is no longer closing a week before the other lifts on a consistent basis. Haven't been bonus weekends the last few seasons.

The question I'm thinking about is whether or not Alta is adjusting their approach to snowmaking as much for late season as for making sure there is enough terrain for travelers who want to ski during the winter holiday period. In the southeast, building a base of 3-5 feet on core lower mountain trails by mid-January can make a huge difference for late February. Assuming there isn't a heat wave that melts almost everything before Pres. Day weekend.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I push back on the above because there are so many western mountains that close with abundant snowpack for 100% economic reasons. The destination skiers stop coming when the weather at home warms up.

Alta with its 500+ inch average and 350 in its bad years is not within shouting distance of running out of snow anywhere when it closes in late April.

 

[MarzNC]

I push back on the above because there are so many western mountains that close with abundant snowpack for 100% economic reasons. The destination skiers stop coming when the weather at home warms up.

Alta with its 500+ inch average and 350 in its bad years is not within shouting distance of running out of snow anywhere when it closes in late April.

I get that completely. Alta Lodge is always fairly empty the last week of the season regardless of snow conditions. One of the deepest powder days I've ever had at Alta was one April 15, without any lift lines to speak of.

This thread is about snowmaking as it relates to climate change.

The question I'm thinking about is whether or not Alta is adjusting their approach to snowmaking as much for late season as for making sure there is enough terrain for travelers who want to ski during the winter holiday period.

Alta installed snowmaking for core groomers a while ago. I'm curious to know when that happened and why. I have little reason to fly to SLC to ski Alta during early season so don't have first-hand impressions of how deep the snowmakers build the base on core trails in Nov-Dec before deciding that natural snowfall will be enough going forward. Did it once and have no plans to repeat the experience.

Snowmaking strategy varies between regions. What has worked well in the southeast for decades or else there wouldn't be a ski industry in the region. Snowmaking is key in the midwest. There is a reason SMI is still based in Michigan. The approach taken by snowmaking teams in the Rockies has had to evolve fast in the last decade or two.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Snowmaking in most western destinations is not existential as in the Midwest and Southeast. The priorities are maintaining a solid snowpack around base areas and building an early season skeletal trail network that rarely covers as much as 1/4 of acreage. I’ll bet that the number of resorts blowing snow outside base areas by February is minuscule.

As for the history, the extreme 1976-77 season was about the time I started skiing and there was almost no snowmaking at most western destinations. In Colorado that winter was viewed as an aberration but when it happened again in 1980-81 that’s when most of the big resorts put in meaningful snowmaking. Since then increases have been steady but gradual.

Mammoth under Dave McCoy held out even longer. 1976-77 was a wipeout season but 1970-81 was fine from mid-January onward. 1986-87 was a bit worse than 1980-81. It was not until 1991 which had limited snow until March that Mammoth installed robust snowmaking.

Snowmaking is still minimal in the Pacific Northwest AFAIK. And at Grand Targhee and the Utah Cottonwoods. I was surprised Alta has as much coverage as Guido said. But note he also said that water capacity was limited. Perhaps he knows the history.

 

[EMSC]

Speaking of underpowered snowmaking in the West. ABasin will open it's 2nd trail for the season perhaps today. That would be exactly one month after opening their first! Crazy! usually about a 2 week timeframe, but warm temps + dry/little water, etc... have combined to be a near train wreck for the Basin this year.

That said, it has been colder in Colo the past few days and looks to be even colder by this weekend and early next week for sure (forecast currently says even longer), so snowmaking is being pumped out as fast as possible everywhere finally.

 

[MarzNC]

I’ll bet that the number of resorts blowing snow outside base areas by February is minuscule.

Agree that snowmaking in the Rockies and other big mountains out west generally ends by late December. I know there are snowmakers who come in for 2-3 months from the Southern Hemisphere and go home by Christmas.

Snowmaking in most western destinations is not existential as in the Midwest and Southeast.

Do you think destination resorts will increase or decrease efforts for early season snowmaking in the near future?

My impression is that snowmaking at destination resorts in big mountains out west is considered important during early season. I noticed years ago that the Resort Overviews on OnTheSnow included Skiable Acres and Snowmaking Acres. Be interesting to see how the numbers under Snowmaking Acres have changed--or not--in the last decade. May only be 100 acres out of 1500+ skiable acres, but presumably the core trails with snowmaking coverage matter from a business standpoint or else why spend the money?

Fair to say that many of the "lost ski areas" in the east, from NC through Pennsylvania, New England, and northern NY felt no need to figure out how to put in snowmaking. Granted some were tiny, with only surface lifts or 1-2 chairlifts. Those were not unlikely to become sustainable businesses. Others had owners who didn't think it was worth thinking about seriously because they expected there would always be plenty of natural snowfall.

Mountain Capital Partners places a high priority on snowmaking. Perhaps because the founder started out with Purgatory, which typically needs snowmaking in order to open. MCP won't re-open Hesperus unless a decent water supply can be secured. With a little help from Mother Nature, MCP has opened Lee Canyon, AZ Snowbowl, Sipapu, and Brian Head already.

 

[MarzNC]

Did there used to be general articles about snowmaking in Utah, Colorado, or Tahoe? Meaning before 2018 or so. Or was that a function of increased marketing by destination resorts about their snowmaking capabilities? Presumably those resorts wanted to convince people that planning an early season trip or winter break family ski vacation was a sensible investment of time and money. People reading FTO know that's not true, but . . .

November 2022 (Park City, Utah)

Snowmaking and Snowmakers: the backbone of a ski resort - TownLift, Park City News

PARK CITY, Utah — Snowmaking has been an essential tool for ski resorts for several decades. The ability to supplement mother nature’s snowfall with

townlift.com

" . . .
The start of this winter has been one of the best in recent memory for early-season snowfall and cold temperatures. Locally, the many efforts of snowmaking crews have enabled both Park City Mountain Resort (PCMR) and Deer Valley Resort (DV) to open earlier than planned.

PCMR took its first step in snowmaking in 1978 when the initial systems were built after a poor snow year. Continued investments have been made to increase its capacity through several acquisitions. Both PCMR and DV have well over 300 snow guns, with some permanently mounted, and mobile units can be positioned where needed.
. . ."

 

[Marc Guido]

I noticed new fan guns near the base of Supreme last season. Do you remember when snowmaking was first installed near Alf's?

Not a clue. But I've been a passholder since January 2005, and they could make snow back then surrounding Alf's. So, sometime prior to 2005. Of course, most summers see a modest improvement somewhere: a new fan gun here, an upgraded water line there.

There are no snowmaking reservoirs to work with. Instead, all of the snowmaking water comes from wells, hence its limitation. Water rights in the West are something very expensive to obtain, and guarded ferociously by those who hold them.

Was one reason the Supreme triple closed a week before other lifts was because the run out didn't have a base quite deep enough by mid-April? Most of my skiing at Alta has been in April the last 15 years. Only skied Alta in early season once, in December 2020.

Supreme always opens a little later and closes a little earlier, but that's due to staffing, not snow cover. Alta has been eminently skiable wall-to-wall on closing day every year that I've been there. It's really not a question. Base depths are usually close to the annual max on closing day. Nevertheless, Alta always closes at roughly the same time every year as business trails off, and employees are off to their summer jobs like river guiding. Alta remains committed to giving its seasonal employees a reliable release date.

At Alta, snowmaking is a necessary evil to build a base on the key groomers in case it's lean up until the holidays. Once the natural snow arrives, I actually make it a point to avoid runs with snowmaking when possible. Practicing my ABC's: "Anything But Corkscrew". There's a tangible difference without.