if this were snow!

[Patrick]

I think that it's human nature to think that what "you've" got is good or better than what others have. Some kind of built in optimism.

Precisely.

However I would add that my skiing experience isn't limited to one part of the World and I've always thought of myself as a good judge/critic of a place.

On this forum most of us put the powder days at the top, say 6 inches minimum new snow (Riverc0il's definition, fairly reasonable).

I've had this debate in the past on Zoneski with Frank and others. Rolling my eyes at their frequent calls for driving 6-8 hours for small ski areas when places like Jay, Stowe, etc are all within a day trip. Most of the writers there are powder powder powder and choose to drive to places like Le Valinouet, Mont Comi, Val d'Irène and Mt. Miller. For me, the number one is "terrain" (and I believe it is for the most of the people on Epic). Whiteface is one of my favorite areas which isn't the snowing place in the East, regardless of the conditions.

So the L.A. skier who books his room at Mammoth a month or two ahead is going to be happy with his experience nearly every time, while the NY skier making the same committment to Vermont is going to get burned and think he wasted his money 1/3 of the time.

That is your point of view, definitely not mine or most skiers out there. This came up during that debate on ZSki. I've never had a boring day at MRG, regardless of conditions.

MarcC and tirolerpeter are FTO posters and not "average skiers" and they aren't looking back.

It's funny, but there is someone from Epic/Mammoth forums that moved from SoCal to Ottawa...he didn't seem to regret his move skiing wise. :twisted: And then there are the Hamdog. J.Spin and Icelandic that have spent some time in the West and moved back.

Not everybody in the West is as close to regular great skiing as the folks in Salt Lake.....some Western locations aren't ideal either.

True, but it's debatable whether the best of the East (Montreal, Vermont) would crack the top 10 in the West. And you need to be flexible like Riverc0il and powderfreak to make that argument.[/quote]

One day I'll finish the quantitative analysis once and for all. :twisted: (although some would say that it's a cold and impersonal way of measuring the best place to ski). :twisted:

I'll humbly remind all of you that during my 13 "family obligation" seasons I averaged 24 days. And with those commitments affecting scheduling I'm sure glad I was in L.A. and not in the East.

My daughter has been averaging around 20times/year in the last 3-4 seasons and has had music class on Saturdays (no skiing at all on Saturdays) + the odd birthday party. I've posted my detailed numbers somewhere in another discussion.

I remember seeing the Quebec number on this, I believe it was around 8 days.

 

[Tony Crocker]

For me, the number one is "terrain"

A minimum pitch and fall line is necessary for powder skiing to work. Mt. Baldy has only 3x the acreage of Snow Summit but probably 10x the acreage suitable for powder. In January 2006 I was at Northstar during a 4-foot dump, and maybe 1/3 of its terrain has adequate pitch for powder. But 1/3 of Northstar is probably = 100% of what's suitable for powder at a decent size eastern area like Mt. St. Anne.

And in terms of terrain Mt. Baldy is similar to MRG, a consensus favorite of the easterners on FTO. Another example where the best of the East = what, the 25th or 50th best of the West?

There's no way Patrick will convince me that he (or his daughter) have real powder skiing at the Ottawa molehills, or that her overall ski experience remotely compares to Adam's at the same ages. Same number of ski days (and other activities), massive difference in quality and variety of terrain skied, Patrick's stated number one criterion.

 

[Tony Crocker]

One day I'll finish the quantitative analysis once and for all.

I think I know how to do this now. PM me off-line or start a separate thread.

 

[Patrick]

For me, the number one is "terrain"

A minimum pitch and fall line is necessary for powder skiing to work.

Not talking terrain and powder. If would have to choose only one, let say there is powder at one place, but no challenge/terrain. I would choose terrain. This is the basis of the argument I had on ZS.

And in terms of terrain Mt. Baldy is similar to MRG, a consensus favorite of the easterners on FTO. Another example where the best of the East = what, the 25th or 50th best of the West?.

](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)

"]There's no way Patrick will convince me that he (or his daughter) have real powder skiing at the Ottawa molehills, or that her overall ski experience remotely compares to Adam's at the same ages. Same number of ski days (and other activities), massive difference in quality and variety of terrain skied, Patrick's stated number one criterion.

I'm not trying to convince you. [-( I'm just stating what I've been skiing and we enjoy it. My experiences and my daughter will probably never be close to yours or Adam. 99.9% of the people here will never be close to you guys, but that doesn't stop us from appreciating what we've got.

You would agree that I've skied some great places in great conditions, right? Why then am I not convinced by your arguments of the Western superiority or agree with your vision of how great things are in the West versus the East? :shock:

 

[Tony Crocker]

Patrick's and my experiences fit the same percentile descriptions I detailed above. He and I shared one of the top days for both of us at Jackson 1/29/06. I have no doubt that his recent Dec. 15-17 weekend at Smuggs/MRG was as good or better than my top Baldy powder days now listed here: http://webpages.charter.net/tcrocker818 ... and_TC.htm .

But my median (50th percentile) day is probably much better than his, and I would probably stay home rather than ski his worst 25% or so.

Patrick is more dedicated than I. The quality difference is greater between our kids than it is for us.

 

[Patrick]

Patrick's and my experiences fit the same percentile descriptions I detailed above. He and I shared one of the top days for both of us at Jackson 1/29/06. I have no doubt that his recent Dec. 15-17 weekend at Smuggs/MRG was as good or better than my top Baldy powder days now listed here.

I've never been good in quantifying best days, however December 16th at Smuggs was probably on-par with that famous January 29th at Jackson Hole. :shock: :shock: :shock: No kidding. :-s

But my median (50th percentile) day is probably much better than his, and I would probably stay home rather than ski his worst 25% or so.

Patrick is more dedicated than I. The quality difference is greater between our kids than it is for us.

Again, your profil is totally different from mine, your preferences also.

 

[icelanticskier]

WOW!
what a bunch of point, counter point. fun to read it all. i can kinda feel it in my legs from the past two days. whatever it was, it was some fine right coast skiing. powdah, not chowdah as we say in MAINE! more soon.
rog

 

[riverc0il]

WOW!

You can say that again. You haven't even seen the half of it yet. :lol:

 

[riverc0il]

Not talking terrain and powder. If would have to choose only one, let say there is powder at one place, but no challenge/terrain. I would choose terrain.

We could probably split apart entire arguments for many of the point-counterpoint being discussed, but I just wanted to address this issue. Choosing between powder and terrain. My personal decision was I want to have both, but how to plan out a season? 30 terrain / 70 powder. Which is why I have a Jay season pass and a Mad Card and Work Day tickets only to Mad River. Love the terrain at Mad River, but love the Powder at Jay more. Best Jay powder lift accessed usually does not have good pitch. Good terrain and pitch in the east means that the powder gets played faster. Once the powder is hammered, stuff can get chewed up. Combine the two and you have a real winner. That is called a mid-week powder day at Mad River. But for maximizing powder, I choose Jay for most of my lift serviced and often do not get the stellar terrain but do get sensational powder that can usually be found throughout the day even on weekends.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I'm with Riverc0il on this one for perhaps different reasons. I can always get great terrain at Mammoth. So powder has more value to me due to its relative scarcity. Thus I'm willing to pay up for it, as in the annual cat skiing.

Since the best of eastern terrain would be only average plus in the West, I think Riverc0il's priorities make the most sense in maximizing eastern ski quality.

 

[VT108]

I guess I'll just start by saying I love this east vs. west stuff. I had a great time ski bumming in Northern VT for the past few years and my general response to this thread is that the better places in the east do get good snow and they do have great terrain.

The ski mountains are nowhere near as spectacular to look at as in the west, there's not much exposed terrain, open bowls, etc. I don't think a lot of westerners realize when the look up at a mountain like Stowe, or MRG how much of those gnarly thick tree sections are actually amazing to ski if you know where you're going.

All of this is not to make a blanket statement that I think the east has better terrain than the west, because that would be dumb, I'm just saying that there are a lot of shots in the east that no one on this board would have the balls to ski. Present company included. So I guess I'm calling out anyone who has alluded to the fact that the east's terrain isn't exciting enough for them.

And eastern skiers should be willing to concede that the west has steeper terrain and better powder.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

I guess I'm calling out anyone who has alluded to the fact that the east's terrain isn't exciting enough for them.

Our yardstick here is if Tony's son Adam doesn't get bored with it at the age of 12, then it's not the 25th percentile of the fifth median based on the massive difference in quality of suitable powder when you divide it by 5, according to a 20-year average compiled at the Top 25 eastern areas divided by the Top 5 western mountains that are consensus favorites.

And that's only if Larry Schick in Seattle agrees.

If not, you have to start the entire process over again.

 

[Marc_C]

Our yardstick here is if Tony's son Adam doesn't get bored with it at the age of 12, then it's not the 25th percentile of the fifth median based on the massive difference in quality of suitable powder when you divide it by 5, according to a 20-year average compiled at the Top 25 eastern areas divided by the Top 5 western mountains that are consensus favorites.

=D> =D> =D> :lol: :lol: :lol: =D> =D> =D>

 

[VT108]

And that's only if Larry Schick in Seattle agrees.

Nice. I nearly spat my latte.

 

[riverc0il]

Our yardstick here is if Tony's son Adam doesn't get bored with it at the age of 12, then it's not the 25th percentile of the fifth median based on the massive difference in quality of suitable powder when you divide it by 5, according to a 20-year average compiled at the Top 25 eastern areas divided by the Top 5 western mountains that are consensus favorites.

And that's only if Larry Schick in Seattle agrees.

If not, you have to start the entire process over again.

Also, don't forget if you can day trip the area from Ontario, it does not matter quality of terrain by default because Ontario is a terrible Metro area for skiers, therefore you can not have fun skiing Ontario day trip areas. Ever. Even on powder days. You might as well fly out west to B.C.

 

[icelanticskier]

...there's not much exposed terrain, open bowls, etc.

hello, um, mcfly, how bout the presidentials, plenty of bowls and terrain so steep that snow won't even stick to it, up to 4,400 vert of skiing in any conditions you can dream of.

And eastern skiers should be willing to concede that the west has steeper terrain and better powder.

concede, never. the west certainly has more steep terrain but, steeper? how steep do ya need? 55 degrees skis well in good conditions but, turn shape and quality can suffer on anything steeper we got plenty of steep in the high country. chic chocs? forgetaboutit, sick!. powder? the west may have more at times but, powder is powder, a foot here or there, what's the dif?

i fully agree with most of the things you mentioned and glad you got to spend some time out here.

this terrain, east vs west thing is insane. apples and oranges. you can't compare the two thoroughly cuz they're different in many ways.

why do ya think the hot shots out west ski on 200's that are as wide as a staging plank? cuz it's wide open and wheeee! unless their skiing straight forward couloirs or hucking their carcasses off of cliffs, skiing isn't nearly as technical and technique not nearly as important out west.
heck, short swings are a lost art out there from what i've seen. ask most western skiers about brook bed skiing, reply "huh".

i didn't move back east cuz i didn't like the skiing out there. i moved back and live here now cuz my skiing techniques suffered and got lazy out there. felt like a few tools had been lost out of my bag. that's why when i go out west now i call it "a ski vacation". a vacation from my vacation.

well, it'll be nice i guess to go out west next week and roll along from edge to edge without a thought through the wide open spaces looking up and around at the snowcapped peaks that look just like all the other snowcapped peaks, east, west, europe etc all around me takin it easy on the nomads in migration mode. lookin forward to the easy skiing so i can back home to the real skiing that skiing out west will make me appreciate even more. excited to leave, can't wait to come back.

ski the east
rog

 

[Harvey]

Hey this thread got fun again.

Special thanks to:

Ice for the poetry. And for fighting the good fight regardless of the facts.

VT for proving that Western Skiers can come over to the Eastern forum without pissin in the snow.

James D - for measuring soul as well as powder and terrain.

Tony - for giving us the facts. I mean comon everything he says is true, even if we don't buy it.

And of course Patrick...taking on the evil Western Empire...and for being a true All Mountain Skier, who hasn't lost his passion for the land where the sun RISES!

:wink:

 

[VT108]

The ski mountains are nowhere near as spectacular to look at as in the west, there's not much exposed terrain, open bowls, etc.

When I said Ski Mountains I meant ski resorts with lifts... Maybe I missed something, but everything I read in this thread so far was in reference to ski areas.

I've spent a fair amount of time in the Presidentials, so I'm well aware of the 55 degree pitches, couloirs, cliffs, 60 ft snowpacks, hurricane force winds, all that. And any idiot could look at pictures of Katahdin, the terrain in the Gaspe Peninsula and know they it is burly as hell, so I'm not trying to belittle any of that.

Let me also say that I was born and raised in VT and will certainly be back one day, I'm just seeing how the other half lives.

I'm just giving you my opinion, based on the ski resorts I have frequented on each side of the Mississippi. Sorry to cause any confusion.

As far as the snow goes, there are 10 foot snowbanks lining the access road to my mountain, How about you?

 

[icelanticskier]

thanx for clarifying. lifts, no lifts, golf courses, beaches, knolls, east, west, whatever, they're all ski areas. don't limit yourself.

10 foot snowbanks huh, good for you and how's them 10 foot snowbanks skiing for ya?

rog

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Hey this thread got fun again.

Special thanks to:

You forgot to mention Admin, who barged into an innocent thread, ignored proper ski forum etiquette, and turned it into another east/west food fight.

Oh yeah, it's his website... he can do whatever he wants.
:lol: