killington news ???????

[jamesdeluxe]

The closest I've ever been to Killington is Pico, so sorry for the fourth-grade question, but...

Assuming that Powdr bought Kmart to make money -- rather than to make hardcore spring skiers happy -- why would they eliminate such a reliable revenue stream?

Forget that it's wrecking your plans for April and May... if we follow the money, why is Powdr doing this?

If it's already been stated earlier in these Kmart threads, sorry... but it's a tough read if you're not personally involved.

 

[Patrick]

Killington is day trip distance from metro-Boston and 4-ish from metro-NYC. In the spring when everyone else closes, there has always been a huge amount of day ticket business at Killington as the people with all the ski passion from other Northeastern mountains wander in. Tons of Canadians. Tons of Massholes. Tons of New Yorkers.

Sure, the 7 month season and snowmaking reputation has always been a reason to settle at Killington and buy a season pass. A big April into May is also a viable business based on walkup day ticket sales. You don't get the same skier yield since lodging is steeply discounted and there's a price break on the lift ticket but it doesn't take many staff to operate the resort at that time of year. They run the K1 in the summer for mountain biking and touron lift rides when the place gets very little traffic. There's no reason why they can't do the same thing in at least the first half of May.

I remember arguing this point a few years ago. Speaking as a ex-"Canadian within a day trip distance", I've almost exclusively skied Kmart on the margin of the season. Killington is, I believe it's still, my 3rd area with the most visits, although I've only skied a handfull of time in months other than May and June. I haven't skied at Killington much in the last few years, because the Kmart isn't the only game in town for me and I've had other choices.

I think ASC really created the problem when they ripped out the Killington double chair. They could load at the midstation and operate the lift with 3 or 4 staff for October and late-May skiing. Upper Downdraft held snow much better than Superstar and the trail is much narrower so the costs to stockpile snow were much lower. To restore the Killington brand, I really think they should buy a used double or triple and run it from midmountain up to Killington Peak for fall and spring skiing.

Even before they removed that double, they moved late Spring skiing operations on the new Superstar. This was shortsighted, because it required some much more to get Superstar to open that late in the season. Once they decided to removed the double and replace it with K1...that pretty much made the energy and efforts to start early and end late so much harder...the fate of K legacy (early/late skiing) was living on borrowed time.

It would be great if they would try to restore the K brand the way that Geoff mentions, however I would be surprised if that would happened. How many people saw the arrival of the K1 Gondola has an improvment over the 0ld K Peak double? Not many people had a tear from that old double, the ones that did really understood what it meant.

 

[joegm]

i have heard many including pat talk about this old double set up they had ... i wasn't skiing then so i never saw it or skied it...it's interesting to hear about, but it seems like they had no choice but to move it somewhere after the gondy went in.... or is that not true????????? could they have put in the gondy somewhere else.....i am assuming that not putting in the gondy was not an option

 

[jasoncapecod]

The old double was great. The mid station made it very versatile early and late season.. I remember my annual Halloween ski holiday. Usually they just had Upper Cascade opened. It always had Volkswagen sized bumps. I really sucked at skiing them (and still do) but we still had a great time .

 

[Tony Crocker]

Yes, we've been around the block a few times on this subject and my opinion has not changed.

The K-1 gondola should work fine as an access lift. You also have a restaurant up there with a potential captive audience when only upper terrain is open. Very modest investment would be needed to tweak Glades and/or Canyon to link to the gondola and provide the better sheltered terrain for early and late season. This setup is potentially more attractive to early/late skiers IMHO than either the old double or the more recent Superstar setup.

None of us know how many day skier tickets Killington was selling early and late under their old model. I know the population base is huge, and you would think there would be considerable $ to be made when no one else is open, but we don't really know. We do know that the expense side is much more than in the West because of the extra snowmaking.

Running the K-1 for access is chump change by comparison. Access lifts in early or late season are all over the Alps, as well as at Whistler and Snowbird.

 

[joegm]

it's just ridiculous that there is no such concept as an access lift to mountain managers here in the east coast...

 

[Tony Crocker]

I think Patrick has mentioned that Mt. Ste. Anne occasionally runs its gondola the last couple of weeks of the season to access its north facing backside that still has snow.

 

[J.Spin]

Killington has definitely run lifts for exclusively uploading and downloading to access upper-mountain snow (if that's the sort of thing we're talking about), even in the new gondola era. Also, Sugarbush has used their lower-mountain lifts at both South (Lincoln Peak) and North (Mt. Ellen) for uploading and downloading at the edges of the season when you couldn't ski all the way to the base. Whether they do this or not has mostly been based on what trails they decide to start and finish the season with, and whether or not they decide to offer skiing even if you can't ski all the way to the base. Those are just the two places that I can think of around here, but there may be others that have used this method as well.

J.Spin

 

[Harvey]

Gore does it too. They use the Gondi to get you up to Topridge in the early season and the use it to get you to Straightbrook in the spring.

 

[ChrisC]

it's just ridiculous that there is no such concept as an access lift to mountain managers here in the east coast...

I have even seen Mt. Snow use its quad or triple (or gondola) as an access lift pre-ASC. Early and mostly late - the mountain would stockpile snow on its North Face to push its season boundaries.

 

[Patrick]

it's just ridiculous that there is no such concept as an access lift to mountain managers here in the east coast....

I think Patrick has mentioned that Mt. Ste. Anne occasionally runs its gondola the last couple of weeks of the season to access its north facing backside that still has snow.

I think Joe might be using a bit of sarcasm here, but he's mostly right about the access lift concept vis-à-vis Mountain managers.

There are a few exception...

Ste-Anne uses the gondola to access the North side in early and late season (if required). Although the gondola canm be also be seen as a tourist thing. Unfortunately Ste-Anne has fixed date season (still one of the longest season in the East).

Tremblant: Use the gondola to access top of mountain. Early season starts with a few runs on the upper North side then extends to Upper South side. Fixed season here again, but incredible early finish (mid-April) so there isn't any need for the gondola to extend the season in the late season. Same deal as MSA...gondola and summit restaurant is a tourist thing also.

Sugarbush: what J.Spin said. This is a real effort to extend the season using access lift. Hat off to Sugarbush.

Those are the only one I know in recent years.

Killington has done it before as well as the first time push for June at Sunday River (1994?). Chair + walk to access the White Heat quad.

Not sure of the downloading capacities of the new single at MRG (the old one didn't meet the requirements for downloading skiers. However this could be the perfect setup (à la K Peak double with a loading midstation). They wouldn't be able to make it past the others, but come definitely extend their season by a few weeks.

 

[kcyanks1]

Not sure of the downloading capacities of the new single at MRG (the old one didn't meet the requirements for downloading skiers. However this could be the perfect setup (à la K Peak double with a loading midstation). They wouldn't be able to make it past the others, but come definitely extend their season by a few weeks.

I asked about this in the AlpineZone challenge. No go--Eric's reply:

"Yes the historically refurbished Single Chair will include the mid-station in the same exact spot and it will be nearly identical to the old one minus the rust. In terms of early and late season downloading, it is problematic because to download we have to run it MUCH slower than normal (those of you who have ridden the Single for foliage rides know how slow that is). This would make the lift lines at the mid-station VERY long."

 

[Patrick]

Not sure of the downloading capacities of the new single at MRG (the old one didn't meet the requirements for downloading skiers. However this could be the perfect setup (à la K Peak double with a loading midstation). They wouldn't be able to make it past the others, but come definitely extend their season by a few weeks.

I asked about this in the AlpineZone challenge. No go--Eric's reply:

"Yes the historically refurbished Single Chair will include the mid-station in the same exact spot and it will be nearly identical to the old one minus the rust. In terms of early and late season downloading, it is problematic because to download we have to run it MUCH slower than normal (those of you who have ridden the Single for foliage rides know how slow that is). This would make the lift lines at the mid-station VERY long."

Thanks for the info, however I'm not sure how the single is different from the old K Peak double which had the same setup. I don't recall the downloading being an issue except it would run slower for loading and unloading. So yes, the last ride of the day was slow, but it was okay for the most of the day.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I have no idea how often MRG has snow only above midstation, but if it's frequent I think they really missed the boat by not trying to enhance download capacity with the recent redesign.

 

[joegm]

once again, crocker nails it... :evil: :roll: .. not unbelievable... it's all too believable... no thinking outside the box at all

 

[Patrick]

I have no idea how often MRG has snow only above midstation, but if it's frequent I think they really missed the boat by not trying to enhance download capacity with the recent redesign.

Without any real snowmaking capacity, MRG will never be among the last ski area to close in the East (unless all the others are really lame). This isn't even an issue, regardless of the capacity to download or not from the single. With the exceptiion of the well discussed early closing due to the rebuilding of the single, MRG generally tries to extend their season as long as possible considering the conditions.

I'm not 100% sure that the new single cannot download skiers, what Eric said was that this would be long process with long liftline to download. I'm sure that this topic will probably discussed by MRG's board at one time in time, because I believe that downloading is possible for the new single, although...once again, i'm not sure.

once again, crocker nails it... :evil: :roll: .. not unbelievable... it's all too believable... no thinking outside the box at all

The new single will not be completed as hoped for Green & Gold weekend (this weekend), so scheduling the shutdown on April 8th was, unfortunately, the right thing to due at that time. I think that MRG has done it share of thinking-outside-the-box, you cannot dump on them for this.

Here are some of the construction pics from the MRG website...

http://www.madriverglen.com/single_construction/

 

[joegm]

pat, i understand what you are saying and i know you are right...it;s just that there is a crying need for a late season hill and no one seems to want to step up and do it....i don;t buy that sugarbush is going to .. if that snow had not come late last year, i don;t think they would have made enough snow to have pushed a late spring season... i just wish mad river would be the one to step up and become the late season option by making more snow and giving it a shot....
i don't run a ski area , but what i don;t understand about them, and it;s not just mrg, is why they seem to wait until the fall to start really working on capitol projects.. i saw this a few years ago at bretton woods and when i was up at loon last week i saw it there... loon is not even close to having a lift installed ... what have they been doing all summer long? what has mad river glen been doing since april...? it just seems to me that if it were really about the customer, they would make sure to get it done.. but that may be to simple... all i know is seeing how construction projects in the city can move at paces that seem to blow away ski area capitol projects. maybe some one can fill me in as to why when ski areas announce big projects, they always seem rushed to finish them in the fall....?

 

[Tony Crocker]

I've noticed that about ski area construction too. A classic example was Fernie's big Timber/White Pass expansion in 1998. They started in the fall and naturally Griz started dumping on Fernie in early November that year. So the the lifts were not ready by Christmas.

In the West I've heard some comments about the helicopters used for lift placement having firefighting or other priorities during mid-summer. As in the MRG example, some places do seem eager to take down old facilities fast in the spring. Mammoth had the old chair 9 dismantled and auctioned off before the ski area closed Memorial Day.

If you want May lift-service skiing in the East, it's going to require stockpile snowmaking. This may be an insurmountable obstacle in the current economic environment. I believe it will take a privately owned company that is willing to subsidize it, and knows that it makes enough money overall to support it.

The other alternative would be to put lifts in the Chic-Chocs or Presidentials, but I think we all know how far proposals like that would get in the current environment (pun very intentional :wink: ).

With minimal snowmaking, it would not surprise me if the downloadable midstation at MRG would rarely see use. Thus the extra cost to make the lift more download friendly might not be worth it. I would be interested in knowing whether the subject was ever raised. We do know there was a lot of discussion within the MRG coop about how to repair/replace that lift.

 

[ChrisC]

I have no idea how often MRG has snow only above midstation, but if it's frequent I think they really missed the boat by not trying to enhance download capacity with the recent redesign.

Without any real snowmaking capacity, MRG will never be among the last ski area to close in the East (unless all the others are really lame). This isn't even an issue, regardless of the capacity to download or not from the single. With the exceptiion of the well discussed early closing due to the rebuilding of the single, MRG generally tries to extend their season as long as possible considering the conditions.

Thank you for some rationality.

 

[Patrick]

Okay, I'll answer what I know about the MRG issues and give impressions on the rest. :wink:

it;s just that there is a crying need for a late season hill and no one seems to want to step up and do it....

I cannot agree with you more, however I've been impressed by Wildcat's style in October 05 or last Spring.

i don;t buy that sugarbush is going to .. if that snow had not come late last year, i don;t think they would have made enough snow to have pushed a late spring season...

Not so sure, Sugarbush's management is going where ASC wasn't willing to do. I'm still impressed by the previous year extension to April 30th with one access lift. Something I hadn't seen in New England in maybe one decade.

i just wish mad river would be the one to step up and become the late season option by making more snow and giving it a shot....

MRG snowmaking is extremely limited (2 guns) and only at the bottom of the hill. To get able to push for being one of the late ones, it would have to make snow above the mid-station (this isn't going to happen). Snowmaking in the higher mountain, snowboarding and brutal grooming isn't going to happen soon. That's one reason why MRG has been thinking outside-the-box. Even if MRG would want to make more snow, water source is fairly limited (that what I heard from MRG).

i don't run a ski area , but what i don;t understand about them, and it;s not just mrg, is why they seem to wait until the fall to start really working on capitol projects.. i saw this a few years ago at bretton woods and when i was up at loon last week i saw it there... loon is not even close to having a lift installed ... what have they been doing all summer long? what has mad river glen been doing since april...?

As in the MRG example, some places do seem eager to take down old facilities fast in the spring.

I don't know about others, but for MRG, they started removing the single back in April removing towers, dismantling & sandblasting then rebuilding them. My understanding about the current delay is due to the helicopters. Check out the pics of the reconstruction since April.

http://www.madriverglen.com/single_construction/

maybe some one can fill me in as to why when ski areas announce big projects, they always seem rushed to finish them in the fall....?

I know that MRG management was concern and that why they pull the plug on the season when they did (it wouldn't have been an issue if it wouldn't had all that late season snow).

If you want May lift-service skiing in the East, it's going to require stockpile snowmaking.

There is one problem here, regardless of the nostalgic days of K. It's been getting warmer every season. There is no way that K (with the energy and ressource of the 90s) would have been able to offer the same season in the last few years and in the good old day. They are calling for 27c weather in Ottawa tomorrow, that is 12c above normal. Temps have been between 20-30 in September. It's the same story every year and it's not getting better for snow and winter lovers.

Or go further North-East in Quebec, but areas closes without any skiers and most trails still open. From last year list...I believe that Val d'Irene, Mont Comi and Le Valinouet closed with almost 100% of their runs open on the last weekend, it's like that most years. But those areas are even far for me.

http://www.firsttracksonline.com/boards ... &&start=30

QUEBEC - 9

Mont Alta: closed - update
Val d'Irène: April 22
Bromont: April 22
Le Massif: April 22
Massif du sud: April 22
Mont St-Sauveur: April 22
Le Valinouet: April 22
Ste-Anne: April 29
Sutton: TBD???
Mont-Comi: TBD???

The other alternative would be to put lifts in the Chic-Chocs or Presidentials, but I think we all know how far proposals like that would get in the current environment (pun very intentional ).

If it didn't happen in the 50s in golden-age of ski area development, it's never going to happen with the current demographics trend for the ski industry, regardless of the environmental issues. :wink:

With minimal snowmaking, it would not surprise me if the downloadable midstation at MRG would rarely see use. Thus the extra cost to make the lift more download friendly might not be worth it. I would be interested in knowing whether the subject was ever raised. We do know there was a lot of discussion within the MRG coop about how to repair/replace that lift.

You're wrong on the first point. I'm pretty sure that the season could be extended by a few weeks. There is great different in snow accumulation and preservation on the upper mountain versus the bottom. Again, I believe that downloading can be an option if they wanted to (not 100% sure). I know the subject was raised at some point, I don't how serious it was looked at. Mind you the last two years the Coop had many more important issue to deal with.