killington news ???????
- Thread starter joegm
- Start date
Patrick
Well-known member
Harvey44":1z8fqlj6 said:
Although it's been probably cold enough last night to make snow, however their website, AZ, SJ, TGR and KZone forums + phone snow doesn't mention anything about lift spinning. :?:
I just checked my calendar and it's October 13th, not April 1st? :roll:
Interesting if true for sure.
joegm
New member
key in on question 7.
http://skiing.alpinezone.com/articles/c ... =sugarbush
i appreciate the apparent good faith effort in the responses in trying to be honest....the acknowledgment about the foolishness of pushing early but not late is something that most of have known... but she is still spinning out the convoluted argument about making money / lack of making money in certain time periods...i still say that is an inaccurate way to frame it...
http://skiing.alpinezone.com/articles/c ... =sugarbush
i appreciate the apparent good faith effort in the responses in trying to be honest....the acknowledgment about the foolishness of pushing early but not late is something that most of have known... but she is still spinning out the convoluted argument about making money / lack of making money in certain time periods...i still say that is an inaccurate way to frame it...
joegm
New member
in case anyone cares and hasn't seen this yet
interviews and questions from Killington's management from before last season.
http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/vi ... hp?t=13227
interviews and questions from the new lineup of bosses from powdr corp
http://skiing.alpinezone.com/articles/c ... killington
good attempts to get info by these guys running these other sites putting this together....but it strikes me how the spin and non answers flow so easily from the mouths of these upper level managers....
interviews and questions from Killington's management from before last season.
http://www.killingtonzone.com/forums/vi ... hp?t=13227
interviews and questions from the new lineup of bosses from powdr corp
http://skiing.alpinezone.com/articles/c ... killington
good attempts to get info by these guys running these other sites putting this together....but it strikes me how the spin and non answers flow so easily from the mouths of these upper level managers....
joegm
New member
from k zone:
" Geoff wrote:
rogman wrote:
Chris Nyberg (AZ challenge) wrote:
Killington has a strong brand based on the size of the resort, its diverse terrain, awesome snowmaking firepower, the variety of entertainment found both on and off the slopes, a multitude of dining and lodging options, and in general the high energy atmosphere found here as a result of the guests we host. The length of the season and the operating schedules for lodges are not drivers of our brand position or financial success.
I do not find his view encouraging...
I think he'll find that his long time repeat customer base thinks differently. A bunch of his season pass base that is the strength of the business is going to vanish after this year. The residents of the town and the access road businesses are the ones who will feel the pain since those season pass people are the ones spending money in November and April. There is no way the town will let them build anything when businesses on the Access Road are failing because of these bone heads. The Killington midwinter product has always sucked. There is no way these tools are going to be able to fix that. You can't re-cut the trail pods and you can't stop the A-hole New Yorkers and Bostonians from being inconsiderate barbarians. By killing off early and late skiing, he's pushing the advanced skier base away to other resorts that offer a longer season. They're not going to sell trophy homes to families with a bunch of novices because that kind of customer will never pick Killington no matter how much lipstick they put on the pig.
If they really do this. I'm gone after this year. With the town obstructing base village construction and what is clearly going to be an operating loss every year as Killington trains customers to go elsewhere, the new management will be shot within 2 or 3 years.
The Boston market is definitely going to vanish. Loon just expanded. Sunday River and Sugarloaf offer a joint season pass and will have a longer operating schedule.
If Sugarbush could convince the state to improve the Roxbury Gap road so you can get from I-89 to Rt 100 reliably in the winter, Sugarbush would grab a bunch of the Boston market. Exit 5/Williamstown & Northfield on I-89 is mile marker 43. It's 17 miles from I-89 over the gap to Warren and 8 miles of it is crappy roads. With an improved road, Sugarbush would only be another 15 or 20 minutes drive time from Boston. More snow. Less crowds. Counting Mad River, a similar number of acres and better terrain. "
these two guys are right on...
" Geoff wrote:
rogman wrote:
Chris Nyberg (AZ challenge) wrote:
Killington has a strong brand based on the size of the resort, its diverse terrain, awesome snowmaking firepower, the variety of entertainment found both on and off the slopes, a multitude of dining and lodging options, and in general the high energy atmosphere found here as a result of the guests we host. The length of the season and the operating schedules for lodges are not drivers of our brand position or financial success.
I do not find his view encouraging...
I think he'll find that his long time repeat customer base thinks differently. A bunch of his season pass base that is the strength of the business is going to vanish after this year. The residents of the town and the access road businesses are the ones who will feel the pain since those season pass people are the ones spending money in November and April. There is no way the town will let them build anything when businesses on the Access Road are failing because of these bone heads. The Killington midwinter product has always sucked. There is no way these tools are going to be able to fix that. You can't re-cut the trail pods and you can't stop the A-hole New Yorkers and Bostonians from being inconsiderate barbarians. By killing off early and late skiing, he's pushing the advanced skier base away to other resorts that offer a longer season. They're not going to sell trophy homes to families with a bunch of novices because that kind of customer will never pick Killington no matter how much lipstick they put on the pig.
If they really do this. I'm gone after this year. With the town obstructing base village construction and what is clearly going to be an operating loss every year as Killington trains customers to go elsewhere, the new management will be shot within 2 or 3 years.
The Boston market is definitely going to vanish. Loon just expanded. Sunday River and Sugarloaf offer a joint season pass and will have a longer operating schedule.
If Sugarbush could convince the state to improve the Roxbury Gap road so you can get from I-89 to Rt 100 reliably in the winter, Sugarbush would grab a bunch of the Boston market. Exit 5/Williamstown & Northfield on I-89 is mile marker 43. It's 17 miles from I-89 over the gap to Warren and 8 miles of it is crappy roads. With an improved road, Sugarbush would only be another 15 or 20 minutes drive time from Boston. More snow. Less crowds. Counting Mad River, a similar number of acres and better terrain. "
these two guys are right on...
joegm
New member
posted on kzone:
In addition to scaling back operations for the upcoming season, the new owners
announced layoffs, terminated what many pass holders regarded as lifetime season
passes, raised season ticket prices and tentatively moved up the closing date to
April 13.
In his e-mail, Nyberg warned that more changes are likely in the offing.
"As you know, Skyeship Stage 1 is not the only change that we have made.
Frankly, there may be more changes in the way we will operate Killington and
Pico in the future. We understand the issues and concerns that arise from
change; however, it is important to keep in context, the changes we are making
are intended to bring Killington and Pico back from the decline in business and
profitability that it has been on. Our decisions soundly align with our business plan and the plan is to make Killington and Pico
more successful in the future."
also from same post
"In addition to scaling back operations for the upcoming season, the new owners
announced layoffs, terminated what many pass holders regarded as lifetime season
passes, raised season ticket prices and tentatively moved up the closing date to
April 13. "
based on this somewhat muddied statement
" the changes we are making
are intended to bring Killington and Pico back from the decline in business and
profitability that it has been on. "
my question is, is Killington losing money...or are they just not making as much money as they feel they should be and has that margin of profit been going down year over year ????
In addition to scaling back operations for the upcoming season, the new owners
announced layoffs, terminated what many pass holders regarded as lifetime season
passes, raised season ticket prices and tentatively moved up the closing date to
April 13.
In his e-mail, Nyberg warned that more changes are likely in the offing.
"As you know, Skyeship Stage 1 is not the only change that we have made.
Frankly, there may be more changes in the way we will operate Killington and
Pico in the future. We understand the issues and concerns that arise from
change; however, it is important to keep in context, the changes we are making
are intended to bring Killington and Pico back from the decline in business and
profitability that it has been on. Our decisions soundly align with our business plan and the plan is to make Killington and Pico
more successful in the future."
also from same post
"In addition to scaling back operations for the upcoming season, the new owners
announced layoffs, terminated what many pass holders regarded as lifetime season
passes, raised season ticket prices and tentatively moved up the closing date to
April 13. "
based on this somewhat muddied statement
" the changes we are making
are intended to bring Killington and Pico back from the decline in business and
profitability that it has been on. "
my question is, is Killington losing money...or are they just not making as much money as they feel they should be and has that margin of profit been going down year over year ????
Size in the East does not mean the same thing as size in the West. Killington is not Mammoth or Vail in size by a longshot. And with Mammoth and Vail it's not just size, it's the alpine steeps and back bowls, which no eastern area can offer.
No more diverse than any of the areas to its north in Vermont, less so in terms of glades and steeps.
The length of season was what communicated that firepower to most eastern skiers. In terms of well-maintained slopes, my impression is that Okemo and Sunday River have always been better than Killington.
I wouldn't want to base the success of ski operations on this. Stowe stacks up rather well in these areas and has, ahem, a much more diverse mountain to go along with it.
Those are the skiers Killington will be losing with its current strategy.
Length of season was clearly a key part of the Killington brand. Restructuring lifts so that there are fewer of them but with more capacity was one of the few things Nyberg said that I agree with.
Bingo. If you can afford the trophy home, you can afford the airfare (or private jet share) to a real mountain in the West.
Geoff
New member
Tony Crocker":2phqilq6 said:
Tony,
You really don't fathom the market in the East. I skied in Chile two summers ago with a couple who own a place at Killington. They also have a place at the Yellowstone Club. Killington is their drive-to weekend place. They live on Long Island and it's as far as they're willing to drive. They don't have the time to fly to Montana every weekend. Killington has plenty of people in their season pass base who have more money than god. One of the founders of Matrix Partners has been there for years. I've never met a poor venture capitalist.
The point I was making is that you're not going to sell trophy homes to wealthy novices with young children. The Killington market is advanced skiers from metro-NYC and metro-Boston who don't want to drive farther. The family market looking for a trailside trophy home will go to Stratton, Okemo, or Loon. If Killington shrinks their season and resorts like Sugarbush and Sunday River pick up the torch, those people will likely change mountains since it's not a huge penalty to drive to those places.
Patrick
Well-known member
Geoff":2tld2zp5 said:
I agree with Geoff on this. People with serious $ will still ski regularly in the East. Case and point, Tremblant's business and homeowners are mostly non-Quebecers. I don't want to quote a number, but it was something like maybe 50% Ontarians, 25% Americans and 25% Quebecers. Many of these owners aren't within a day (not Montreal or Ottawa). Toronto is 7 hours away. Tremblant has just bought a few years ago the old army strip in LaMacaza which started accepting semi-regular(?) flights from Toronto and Newark.
Long Island to Killington on a Friday night has to be a tough drive, wrong side of the city like Orange County to Mammoth. I'll bet they could get to SLC or Denver in similar time.
There may be easterners buying ski real estate for personal use 7 hours drive from home, but that doesn't make it sensible IMHO. If they timed their purchases well and can make money on them, that's a different story.
I'm not being snobbish about this. Let's look at Riverc0il, who we all agree has a high average quality of ski day living in the East. Why? Because he 1) has a flexible schedule and 2) chooses the best area among several to ski on any given day. When you buy ski real estate you're committing to one area. And if it's 7 hours from home you're not going be that flexible in when you get to use it. Therefore I see snow reliability as a key factor if you're going to buy in for personal use.
There may be easterners buying ski real estate for personal use 7 hours drive from home, but that doesn't make it sensible IMHO. If they timed their purchases well and can make money on them, that's a different story.
Much less so than when they had less $, if they know what they are doing. As I've mentioned, I've run into many easterners at the cat and heli places in Canada who never ski in the East any more. There are even a few here in SoCal who do all their skiing out of state.
I'm not being snobbish about this. Let's look at Riverc0il, who we all agree has a high average quality of ski day living in the East. Why? Because he 1) has a flexible schedule and 2) chooses the best area among several to ski on any given day. When you buy ski real estate you're committing to one area. And if it's 7 hours from home you're not going be that flexible in when you get to use it. Therefore I see snow reliability as a key factor if you're going to buy in for personal use.
Patrick
Well-known member
Not much time to respond (one computer family :roll: ). But it seem to me that Powdr is going the wrong way. The last time I saw an new owner giving all the wrong signals to the local die-hard fans and potential market was Jerry Loria of the Montreal Expos. :shock:
Killington was absent at the Ottawa Ski Show this weekend. I don't think it's a good move. People are going to start to forget them if they take themselve for granted marketing wise. I've never seen a ski show without Killington present, especially that the Canadian was worth almost $ 1.04 US on Friday (yes, it worth more than the US).
US areas present at the show this year: Jay, Smuggs, Stowe, Whiteface, Titus, Gore, Sunday River and a bunch from Mount Washington areas (Bretton Woods, Attitash, Wildcat, Black, Cranmore + Shawnee ME). That would be the competition in the Killington market in both side of border.
Killington was absent at the Ottawa Ski Show this weekend. I don't think it's a good move. People are going to start to forget them if they take themselve for granted marketing wise. I've never seen a ski show without Killington present, especially that the Canadian was worth almost $ 1.04 US on Friday (yes, it worth more than the US).
US areas present at the show this year: Jay, Smuggs, Stowe, Whiteface, Titus, Gore, Sunday River and a bunch from Mount Washington areas (Bretton Woods, Attitash, Wildcat, Black, Cranmore + Shawnee ME). That would be the competition in the Killington market in both side of border.
berkshireskier
Active member
I agree with Tony here. Having skied most of my life in the East and some in the West, I think that most serious skiers who live in the East and have both the money and time would be better off to schedule trips out West rather than ski in the East. Tony's right about the commute from Long Island to Killington - it is at least a five-hour trip on Friday night and then back again on Sunday night (after skiing all weekend and fighting the Killington crowds) - not a pleasant experience on a regular basis. Furthermore, if you have to ski on weekends, most Eastern ski areas are crowded, expensive and usually have marginal condition, even after a snowstorm as most trails get skied off fast. (It can be a different story if you can ski mid-week and have the flexibility to pick and choose the days you ski).
salida
New member
berkshireskier":3r4xnnl2 said:
I've got to point out. Just because they might own a multimillion dollar house at Kton doesn't mean they are a serious skier. Nor does it mean that they spend enough time thinking about skiing to realize that for the same time investment (driving v. flying) and less cost they could be in SLC up to their crotch in Admin's pow.
porter
Another deja vu. Mt. Bachelor was always at the L.A. Ski Show until Powdr Corp bought it.
That's why I mentioned that I hoped they were better at investing than in choosing where to ski.
These comments are in no particular order (God forbid!!)
1. I understand the new owners not wanting to honor the lifetime passes, but I don;t think it would have killed them to offer these passholders a deal for a few years (not free, but significantly discounted season passes). Or is that waht they have done and I'm misinterpreting the situation?
2. Regardless of pass-gate
, the new owners appear to be doing a really, really lousy job at building goodwill. Tony, I know your experience with POWDR Corp indicates they don;t give a crap about goodwill, but if they are indeed trying to get a base village built, it seems really counterproductive not to build relationships that would foster a positive environment for this.
3. With the hassle and expense of flights these days - airports are now getting close to hospitals as the most miserable places in the conutry - skiers will be looking to stay closer to home more frequently than what we've seen over the past 10-15 years.
4. Tony, you are spot-on with your comments about POWDR being in for a surprise if they think they can compete in the East on reputation. Again, we'll see what they do as far as on-mountain experience...but they better not treat the place as a cash cow. Or that cow will stop producing milk.
5. I'm against the suggestion of re-doing the Roxbury Gap road. That road, which I've been on during the Summer, is spectacular, and pretty hilly...sending a lot of flat-landers on that road in the darkness of Winter nights - even if it's redone- seems like a bad idea to me.
6. I'm actually fine with K-mart dropping its committment to the earliest opening in the East, but putting an arbitrary date for closing up seems premature. Could they go to a Fri-Sun schedule after mid-April, or does the workforce issue prevent that?
Oh, and POWDR appears to have screwed a lot of their staff by firing them and re-hiring them under more mgmt-friendly terms. Plus, my buddy in Burlington says they are not offering any "shop program" discounts to VT businesses this year. Again, great way to make friends, guys!
1. I understand the new owners not wanting to honor the lifetime passes, but I don;t think it would have killed them to offer these passholders a deal for a few years (not free, but significantly discounted season passes). Or is that waht they have done and I'm misinterpreting the situation?
2. Regardless of pass-gate
, the new owners appear to be doing a really, really lousy job at building goodwill. Tony, I know your experience with POWDR Corp indicates they don;t give a crap about goodwill, but if they are indeed trying to get a base village built, it seems really counterproductive not to build relationships that would foster a positive environment for this.3. With the hassle and expense of flights these days - airports are now getting close to hospitals as the most miserable places in the conutry - skiers will be looking to stay closer to home more frequently than what we've seen over the past 10-15 years.
4. Tony, you are spot-on with your comments about POWDR being in for a surprise if they think they can compete in the East on reputation. Again, we'll see what they do as far as on-mountain experience...but they better not treat the place as a cash cow. Or that cow will stop producing milk.
5. I'm against the suggestion of re-doing the Roxbury Gap road. That road, which I've been on during the Summer, is spectacular, and pretty hilly...sending a lot of flat-landers on that road in the darkness of Winter nights - even if it's redone- seems like a bad idea to me.
6. I'm actually fine with K-mart dropping its committment to the earliest opening in the East, but putting an arbitrary date for closing up seems premature. Could they go to a Fri-Sun schedule after mid-April, or does the workforce issue prevent that?
Oh, and POWDR appears to have screwed a lot of their staff by firing them and re-hiring them under more mgmt-friendly terms. Plus, my buddy in Burlington says they are not offering any "shop program" discounts to VT businesses this year. Again, great way to make friends, guys!
Pfunkride
New member
Here's some more good news:
Employee's will have black out dates! Yeah! Like this Sat.-Sun and next Sat. Sun. I'm only guessing they'll continue spitting out blackout dates on employee passes! F*** this. What are they doing??
I'm going to finish up my ski patrol training and likely will not return next year. I'd rather buy a pass to sugarbush or jay or stowe, ALl offer me more for buying a pass, than getting blacked out on an employee pass!
:!:
Employee's will have black out dates! Yeah! Like this Sat.-Sun and next Sat. Sun. I'm only guessing they'll continue spitting out blackout dates on employee passes! F*** this. What are they doing??
I'm going to finish up my ski patrol training and likely will not return next year. I'd rather buy a pass to sugarbush or jay or stowe, ALl offer me more for buying a pass, than getting blacked out on an employee pass!
:!:
Geoff
New member
Pfunkride":18j33iq1 said:
Quit bitching. Killington has always restricted employees from skiing the early season weekends. If you've ever skied there on Thanksgiving Saturday, you'd understand the motivation for the policy. Pre-ASC when passes were produced with a Poloroid camera rather than printed from a digital image and mailed, comp employee family passes weren't issued until after the Thanksgiving holiday and employees could only ski midweek in November.
Killington, in the Preston Smith years, also didn't give comp tickets to ski shop employees. They only gave them to shop managers and owners.
Geoff
New member
Tony Crocker":1sw1aosk said:
Long Island (at least the part near NYC where most of the people live) is not 7 hours from Killington. Most people I know do it in 4 1/2 to 5. It might be 7 in a snowstorm. Even Google Maps says it's 5 hours and that presumes you are going the speed limit. Once you clear NYC, everybody goes 80 mph on I-87 and that makes up the time you lose in the traffic delays in the first 40 or 50 miles of the drive. The New Yorkers usually start showing up in the bars around 9:30 on a Friday night.
jasoncapecod
Well-known member
I have to agree with Tony on this, I live north of theTZ off 287 and it takes me 4 1/2 hrs and i drive like a mad man.. Getting across the Whitestone or Throgs Neck and then having to deal with the Huntch and the TZ is a nightmare on Friday evening.