Kmart VT 10/1/05

[Lftgly]

a Ribbon of Death - a sheet of bulletproof porcelain

I guess you MRG guys are spoiled by not having to deal with "artificial snow".

Skiing at Cannon Mtn on the man-made is usually a "Ribbon of Death" from opening day after Thanksgiving (God willing) in November, though December, and well into January. So I'm happy to make some lift-served turns on porcelain anytime before MLK day in January, while waiting for the off-piste base to build up. Back in the day of "early season" openings at KMart, I gladly skied by the blowing snow guns with glazed-over goggles just for the chance to slide on snow again. I agree with Mark that it's not even in the realm of a powder day in glades, or an April day on the rock pile, but that 'ribbon of death' still counts as 'real ski season' in my book.

 

[sven]

Unrelated post about Killington... do they have free lift tickets on opening day or am I completely imagining that? I've been thinking about watching the weather and waking up at 5 AM to double check it on days that look probable, but that would be stupid without a free lift ticket, eh? I'd bet opening day would be less crowded too than the next day, when everyone has already found out....

Sven

 

[Admin]

Unrelated post about Killington... do they have free lift tickets on opening day or am I completely imagining that?

You're completely imagining that.

 

[Anonymous]

Blame ASC for being cheap. New K1 would work fine as a transport lift to an extended Glades or Canyon chair. No need to reopen the extended debate on this topic from the past 2 years.

Problem with that is that I dunno' if there would be enough room at the top, there as it gets pretty steep and rocky up there and it would also mess up Catwalk, a fun little adventure from the top.

Face it, October and November simply ain't ski season unless you count scaring the fecal matter outta' you on a Ribbon of Death - a sheet of bulletproof porcelain comprised of compressed Frozen McSludge, scraped off by 9:20AM. Any good day ya' get during those months is simply gravy.

As we know, April is a month ocurring during the real ski season 8) .

Come on, Mark. That's what rock skis are for. Not all of life can be playing in the trees. I look forward to the ribbon of death. I just don't ski it on the weekend.

PS: Met your friend Jonathan the other day.

On the free tickets, I thought that they used to have a promo for a free ticket on May First if you recited the Gettysburg Address.

 

[Mark Renson]

You guys/gals have much bigger cajones/ovaries than I do. I'm terrified of lift-served in November.

.....hmmm, but then again, to a starved man even a Big Mac starts looking mighty tasty :lol: .

Free list served at Killington? .....yup, I saw it happen once. I believe the exact date was November 19th, 1989. I had my season's pass and I was trying to hawk ski shares for our house in Plymouth and the skiing was awful beyond words. It was so awful that it made a Big Mac look like a Lobster Fest in comparison :shock: . A few days later, a huge dump in excess of 2 feet occurred and an epic Thanksgiving was had, thus making that November more than just a month honoring the date Felix Unger got canned (November 13th ....deep down inside, he knew she was right 'cuz he was such a pain in the arse).

 

[Tony Crocker]

I generally disdain "Ribbon of Death" skiing also. In 2000, 2003 and 2004 I did not have my first ski day until January. But then came last season's October

and November

The only "strip skiing" was in August

and I suspect Mark would approve of that one!

I will confess that extension of the current ski streak might get me to consider "Ribbon of Death" skiing at Big Bear or Mountain High. Of course in SoCal the ribbon tends to be snow-cone slush (and airborne snowboarders) more often than porcelain.

 

[cd]

I don't see the fringe-of-season chat as a "debate" but more akin to those memorial notices one sees in the newspaper obit section, the ones that people take out on the anniversary of a loved ones passing. Keep the tales, pics, links etc. coming, as the headers are always plenty obvious if one wishes to skip the threads. At this point it doesn't seem they'll ever "get it" about exactly what they've given up in terms of image etc. but people will always lament the loss and the fact they are becoming just another ski area. Again I'll grant that a couple of isolated novelty days like they might have been able to squeeze out last week are no huge loss of skiing from the big picture, at least compared to the drastic chopping of the late season w/ full cover.

Also, I would rarely if ever classify opening day(s) conditions as a "bullet proof porcelain ribbon of death". Au contraire, they consistently lay down a very good surface of man made packed powder. True, it can be thin and/or scraped, the traffic-to-terrain ratio can suck, and the snow guns can make seeing (and hearing!) pretty tough *but* the surfaces have always been great in my experience. Nowadays they bad-mouth those olde opening conditions as part of the public rationalization for opening late but at the time they were rightly proud of their snowmakers handiwork, a fact they cannot change. In all I've felt far more danger on mid winter rain-freeze days than fall openings!

 

[Patrick]

Unrelated post about Killington... do they have free lift tickets on opening day or am I completely imagining that?

You're completely imagining that.

No Sven, you had a long sleep. The last time I heard about free tickets at Killington must have been over 10-15 years ago.

They had free lift tickets for opening day, closing day... also prior to that June 1st.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I did not object to the "fringe of season" discussion. The topic which I thought had been exhausted was the "replacement of Killington double by K-1 gondola" debate. I do not know the precise topography between top of K-1 and top of Canyon or Glades, except that a green trail leads from the former to the latter. Therefore IMHO a motivated management could figure out some kind of uphill connection, even if it meant a relocated or non straightline chairlift path. Motivated ski area managements do this sort of thing all the time. Mountain High's new management spent the $ to shift the path of a high speed quad chairlift about 100 yards laterally just because local snowboarders didn't enjoy the long skate/traverse required to get back to it from 2 of the main trails. The "K-1 as transport" solution also allows the more sheltered Canyon/Glades area to be the focus of late season skiing, which several posters here said worked well in the 1980's

With regard to snowmaking surfaces I agree with cd. I always look for the run of 72-96 hours of continuous snowmaking when Snow Summit gets a big chunk of trails covered and open for the first time in the season, since they ski just fine then. It's only after a couple of melt/freezes or rain events, plus skier traffic, that you get the man-made porcelain effect.

 

[Mark Renson]

Tony, that's some sweet lookin' "gravy".

Come to think of it :idea: ...... hmmm, lift served days in November that stand out:

1986: Killington got hit with 14" (howcum I can recall exact snowfall totals from almost 20 years ago, but forget birthdays, etc) and then some more squalls in mid-Nov and presto, we had nice turns on North Star.

1989: Huge dump right before Thanksgiving, had a nice day at Jay followed by a day at Killington.

1990: Veteran's Day Weekend, snowguns were vomiting forth Frozen McSludge on Snowden AND it was real snowing. Nice turns on Chute, Bunny Buster and with no snow made, Upper Mouse Run was opened.

1997: WOW! Latter part of November '97 was better than January 2005 when ya' think about it. Great untracked on Derrick's at Jay Peak, Timbuktu Glades. MRG opened for Thanksgiving with top-to-bottom.

1998: Biggest dump of the 1998-9 season was in November. Skied on natural trails at Jay Peak.

2003: Huge weekend at MRG :shock: ; hip deep untracked on Gazelle, thigh deep on Quacky


The above were November days, and now for an October day :shock: :

1993: Halloween Day. I was posting ads for Ski Shares in our house in Plymouth and doing some chares when I caught word that the upper mountain at Killington got 6" of fresh. Made it to the mountain at Noon and had a nice day on the bumps and got some fluff on Cascade which was only trail open. Load/unload/download at midstation. Pretty nice sans a few slick spots, especially considering it was October.

 

[Patrick]

I do not know the precise topography between top of K-1 and top of Canyon or Glades, except that a green trail leads from the former to the latter. Therefore IMHO a motivated management could figure out some kind of uphill connection, even if it meant a relocated or non straightline chairlift path.

A simple shifting of K1 wouldn't necessarly do, Kmart would still have two lifts running for very early skiing (by today's standard). Back in the days, everything was done with only one lift, the double.

To make that happen again, management would really have to be motivated by either:
1) realign the K1 and run another lift.
2) Built a mid-station for the current K1 gondola.

In my opinion that none of these options will ever happened.

 

[joegm]

patrick is right.. it will never happen... just like K will never open up again without it being top to bottom off the gondy... it just doesn't make any sense from their point of view.
re: snow conditions- imho, the problem with the early/pre season skiing at K is not the snow surfaces, ( ice shows you your weaknesses, i think ) but rather the external conditions that are presented to ski on the surfaces, no matter how crappy the surface is. ( i suppose in theory one could argue that not being able to see is a good drill too, but lets be real for a minute ) the snow guns make visibility almost zero and every time in the last 3 years when i was at K either on day one or within 4 days of day 1, guns were going literally top to bottom on every skiable trail....it's always a rush to get back on the sticks makin turns... but it usually is a bit of a let down until they get some lines open without guns going on them.....31 days till K's target date ... and yeah, i'm sure i'll be there within the 72 hours of so of the first lift spin, skiing blindly saying " what am i doing here :roll: "....
sidenote... i see whaleback now has some public support from some rock stars like bloom and mayer on their site... anyone know the evelation of whaleback?.... are they doomed past a certain point in april as far as holding onto a base of snow?

 

[Anonymous]

Whaleback is about 1000' at the base and 1700'at the summit.

There's enough elevation difference between West Leb (right at the river) and that area that it's often raining in West Leb and snowing at Whaleback. It's not really high enough that they can start snowmaking very early.

 

[Mark Renson]

sidenote... i see whaleback now has some public support from some rock stars like bloom and mayer on their site... anyone know the evelation of whaleback?.... are they doomed past a certain point in april as far as holding onto a base of snow?

Whaleback? .......yeah, buddy. I always drool over that steep face as I round that sharp curve on I-89, almost causing me to lose control of my truck. Seriously, that's got a very impressive pitch :shock: .

It has the Apres' Ski, too - the Purmort NH Truck Stop, a happening scene 24 hours a day :lol: . Hot dogs on the roller with enough sodium nitrates in 'em to poison a large rat, Whoopie Pies, caffeinated beverages which also keep me barely alive enough to drive the next few hours sideways/fishtailing in a blinding storm and of course, 6 packs of beer.

Seriously, it looks like these new Whaleback owners are onto something. I noticed that it's been brushed out, very recently. In the past, they've vomited forth the manmade a little before Thanksgiving.

 

[sheahunter]

The trick to skiing K after opening, is to wait for the first day of above freezing temps. this usually happens within 5 days of opening.

 

[joegm]

that's an excellent point about K and the window after...it's 100% correct....it almost seems like K is insanely cold the first 5 days or so it opens , then it gets warmer for about 2 weeks, then it goes into the regular cold pattern

 

[Tony Crocker]

Interesting Mark should mention Halloween 1993. I skied Killington on November 7, one week later. Cascade, Bunny Buster and Superstar were open, with the lower part of Bunny Buster having the only slick spots. I was impressed to see that much open that early, especially something advanced like Superstar. After reading reports here I have concluded I hit a lucky year.

I do not suggest modifying K-1. An addition or modification to one of the upper chairs is what I would recommend. The cost of lift modification is a one-shot, and the cost of running 2 lifts instead of one is modest. The cost of earlier snowmaking is the issue, especially given the chance it will get washed out and they will have to start over. So even if the lifts were already perfectly configured, current ASC management would not start making snow any earlier. This was the subject discussed last year, and is a moot point with current ASC management.

 

[riverc0il]

and is a moot point with current ASC management.

=D>

even though i completely agree with that last statement and think you are dead on tony, us east coasters are still left to ](*,) and :-({|= about the early season loss. knowing and understanding the reasons (and most of us believe those reasons are 100% legit!) doesn't make it any easier to take. hey, at least i don't know what i am missing since i wasn't into the long ski season when K used to push the ends of the seasons.

 

[cd]

Just going to pick and choose a few points for response from recent posts:

>>>I did not object to the "fringe of season" discussion. The topic which I thought had been exhausted was the "replacement of Killington double by K-1 gondola" debate.<<<

OK, fair enuff. The replacement you mention is a cold hard fact so not sure how to technically "debate" it but yeah a lot of the thoughts on that have been expressed .

>>>A simple shifting of K1 wouldn't necessarly do, Kmart would still have two lifts running for very early skiing (by today's standard). Back in the days, everything was done with only one lift, the double.

To make that happen again, management would really have to be motivated by either:
1) realign the K1 and run another lift.
2) Built a mid-station for the current K1 gondola.

In my opinion that none of these options will ever happen.<<<

Yes you're right that it's moot (witness the new Kmart motto: "Why does it have to be Killington?"). For the sake of the ol' chat however....

The Glades chair is still the best isolated upper elevation candidate and a short hike to/from is no big deal BUT, if the desire was there, IMO the simplest/cheapest solution would be to put a surface lift on Upper Cascade, running from the old K2 midstation to just below the Cascade headwall. Skiers coming off the gondola would only need to descend/ascend those stairs that go down to the right just before you walk into the lodge then walk around the base of the building, or they could establish a new route through the summit lodge (say, down through the old gondola station/ bathroom area and out the bottom of the building). The lift could be a poma (either move the one from Snowden or buy another- plenty are cheaply available I'm sure!), the use of which could then be discontinued once additional terrain was open since there are a number of crossovers in/around Cascade. Plus it's right there for all the leaf peepers and local camera crews to see!

>>>it will never happen... just like K will never open up again without it being top to bottom off the gondy... it just doesn't make any sense from their point of view. <<<

It makes the same "sense" that it did for a quarter century or more...it's their "point of view" that changed.

>>>...early season loss. knowing and understanding the reasons (and most of us believe those reasons are 100% legit!) doesn't make it any easier to take. <<<

Again, "legit" is subjective. The reasons both for and against are the same as always. Once they allow themselves to dismiss the factors of cachet, reputation, PR, etc. it gets a little more clear cut. Again again, it's myopic as it's NOT the odd coupla weeks of season fringes that put them in the doghou$e.

BTW, got my pass yesterday so it's getting ever closer. Even the recent late openings are now only a few weeks away. Hey I've never had any problem whatsoever with the skiing they do offer, only what/when they don't!

 

[joegm]

i'm certainly not going to ever argue against more access to skiing. but i still say, objectively, it really doesn't make sense to open and then deal with a somewhat significant chance of having to close again because the product they made which allowed then to open was taken away by the weather...there are a lot of factors involved with opening and then being forced to close like ordering food products that might go to waste if the place is not open and paying for employee housing when the employees are not working cause the hill is closed... and i'm sure that has happened in the past 25 years.... none of that is a factor in the spring.. when the snow is gone, that's it... it's gone and they turn out the lights....that's all i was trying to say by saying it doesn't make sense, and i stand by that. trying to look at it objectively, risking having to close doesn't make a whole lot of sense. . which is a lot different than closing when you do have the product to offer ( ie may ) without having to spend money on it ( ie snowmaking) but don't spin becasue you can't hit a preset number of skiers coming. i won't strongly argue against your point that the fringe season expenditures are not the main culprits to their current state / way of thinking. but the the fact is they seem to either have 1) changed the amount of money they are willing to either lose or 2) have raised the amount of profit they require to reap on any given day to keep the place open during those fringe seasons. if we assume that the fringe seasons are comprised of numbers that don't meet one of the above 2 , and cutting back on one of those seasons would allow the other too be lengthened, i would vote to open later in november ( so as to not risk wasting money on snowmaking that may or may not contribute to the overall base depth ) to stay open in may. on the other hand, i must say that my observations of skiing K in the first 5 days, especially the madness of day 1 of opening are that those days are often a lot busier than the following days 6 through 15 of operations. but who knows , maybe they make more money in november than they do in may when everything is factored in. i find it hard to believe, but i don't work there. and i've said it before . but $369 to ski all the asc resorts , minus 14 days that you don't want to be there anyways, is ridiculous... that pass should be at least $500, if not more. you get what you pay for. and obvoiusly in recent cheap season pass years , we are getting what we pay for... late openings and early closings ...i don't see how anyone could objectively expect to ski from nov 1 to june 1 , IN NEW ENGLAND, at major resorts with high speed lifts, for $369, NO MATTER HOW MUCH THE grand summit staying WEEKENDERS SUBSIDIZE US. if we were in say, mammoth or whistler or loveland or a basin, that's different... why not make a bronze level 2 pass and bump the price of that pass another $150. it's your option- bronze 1 good from dec 1 to april 1- $369... bronze 2 good from opening day till closing day- $ 500 or so... the hard core's directly subsidize their " fringe seasons "