NE Gets Screwed Again?

berkshireskier":19g61wwg said:
I don't blame you. I'd rather fly to Utah or JH or Denver than drive 6 hours to ski Stowe or Jay Peak - ignoring the extra cost.

What extra cost, really? By shopping around and timing it right you can get a round-trip fare from the East Coast to SLC for around $300, give or take. Once here you can take a free airport shuttle to a Salt Lake Valley hotel, which can be had for ~$35/night if you're frugal, but for the sake of argument let's include $40 for a paid airport shuttle ($20 each way). Ski bus fare costs $6/day round trip (or you could get a multi-day pass to the Cottonwoods that includes free ski bus transportation to and from your hotel). Lift tickets, even at the walk-up rate are $64 for the first day at Alta, and $59 for all subsequent days if you keep your lift ticket -- even in subsequent seasons.

Now, let's compare it from NYC (and admittedly BBD is farther from N VT than NYC). Round-trip mileage to and from Stowe is 670 miles. Not even considering the depreciation on your car, that's $92.13 in gas based on 20 mpg and $2.75/gallon. A "basic room" at the Mountaineer in Stowe, one of the more economical options on the Mountain Road, ranges from $99-$159/night according to their website -- I'll use $129 as an average. A daily lift ticket at Stowe will set you back $84/day. Food is food, for you're eating anyway whether you're in Utah, in Vermont, or at home, so I won't include food in my calculations -- although I dare say that on-mountain lunches are cheaper here. (A huge Philly cheese steak, fries and a fountain soda with free refills -- enough food to choke a horse -- will cost $12 at Goldminer's Daughter. But I digress...)

So, for a 4-day trip you get:

Stowe:
$92.13 gas
$516.00 lodging
$336.00 lift tickets
TOTAL: $944.13

Alta:
$300.00 airfare
$140.00 lodging
$241.00 lift tickets
$24.00 ski bus fare
$40.00 airport shuttle
TOTAL: $745.00

It's actually cheaper for a NYC resident to spend 4 days skiing here than going to Stowe for the same 4 days, a savings of 22% by the analysis above. It's a myth that it's cheaper to drive to Vermont. Every weekend -- and I mean every weekend I meet folks from NYC who come out here 3, 4, 5 or more times a season and don't ski in the Northeast. They've discovered that it's cheaper and frankly easier to do so.

If instead of pricing gas I use $0.50/mile for gas and depreciation on your car, the cost of that Stowe trip goes up to $1,187. You could stay in a castle here and still break even or come out ahead. It may not be a castle but you could stay on-mountain at Alta in the Peruvian for $188/night in regular season for a room with a private bath and including breakfast, lunch and dinner! Now, let's say that you spend on average $50/day to eat (I'm being conservative -- just try to eat breakfast, lunch and dinner in Stowe for $50/day without going to McDonald's). The cost comparison now becomes:

Stowe:
$335.00 gas and mileage on personal car
$516.00 lodging
$200 meals
$336.00 lift tickets
TOTAL: $1,387

Alta:
$300.00 airfare
$752.00 lodging and all meals
$241.00 lift tickets
$68.00 airport shuttle (Canyon Transport round-trip to/from Alta from SLC International)
TOTAL: $1,361

So for essentially the same price as driving to Stowe for 4 days and staying on the Mountain Road, you could be flying to Utah and staying slopeside at Alta and sipping a cocktail in the Peruvian's outdoor pool before dinner as you watch the sun go down behind Mount Superior. And you could get to Utah faster than you could get to Stowe from NYC without the hassle of driving. I mean, really? This gets ridiculous.

All bets are off if you're coming out here as a family. But the analysis above is sound for a solo traveler.
 
jamesdeluxe":29uep8oz said:
Admin":29uep8oz said:
Not even considering the depreciation on your car
:-s

Why does that puzzle you? Is your car the only one that doesn't have a limited life? What's the standard IRS mileage rate now? I think it's in the fifties, which is why I used $0.50/mile for the latter analysis.
 
Good grief, if you're going to include car depreciation in this analysis, you might as well throw in the potential life-shortening effects of cosmic radiation absorbed during the flight.
 
jamesdeluxe":2m7l32ou said:
Good grief, if you're going to include car depreciation in this analysis, you might as well throw in the potential life-shortening effects of cosmic radiation absorbed during the flight.

Unlike your ridiculous comparison, depreciation on the automobile is a true cost associated with a 670-mile drive. However, fine...if you want to play that way I will. Take your pick -- for staying in the Salt Lake Valley:

Stowe:
$92.13 gas
$516.00 lodging
$336.00 lift tickets
TOTAL: $944.13

Alta:
$300.00 airfare
$140.00 lodging
$241.00 lift tickets
$24.00 ski bus fare
$40.00 airport shuttle
TOTAL: $745.00

OR for slopeside at Alta vs. Mountain Road in Stowe:

Stowe:
$92.13 gas
$516.00 lodging
$200 meals
$336.00 lift tickets
TOTAL: $1,144.13

Alta:
$300.00 airfare
$752.00 lodging and all meals
$241.00 lift tickets
$68.00 airport shuttle (Canyon Transport round-trip to/from Alta from SLC International)
TOTAL: $1,361

Would you still rather go to Stowe? Seriously.

The point of all of this is that despite the popular misperception espoused by berkshireskier earlier in this thread, there is no price premium for many Northeasterners to ski out here instead of Vermont. Compared to Stowe, lift tickets are 28% cheaper, and an apples-to-apples lodging comparison shows a 73% savings on lodging in the Valley, or a 50% savings on slopeside lodging (based on slopeside Stowe Mountain Lodge's $1,316 rate for 4 nights in a Studio Guestroom [their cheapest room] plus the $200 for 4 days of meals based on $50/day to make up for the 3 meals/day included in the Peruvian's $188/night rate). The difference in lodging costs and lift tickets more than makes up for a $300 airfare.

Of course there are cheaper options than Stowe, but not cheap enough to negate this analysis and again, this is apples to apples. If you want to bring up Plattekill, I'll bring up Beaver Mountain or Wolf Creek Utah.
 
Admin":22cfpwhj said:
jamesdeluxe":22cfpwhj said:
Good grief, if you're going to include car depreciation in this analysis, you might as well throw in the potential life-shortening effects of cosmic radiation absorbed during the flight.

Unlike your ridiculous comparison, depreciation on the automobile is a true cost associated with a 670-mile drive. However, fine...if you want to play that way I will. Take your pick -- for staying in the Salt Lake Valley:

Stowe:
$92.13 gas
$516.00 lodging
$336.00 lift tickets
TOTAL: $944.13

Alta:
$300.00 airfare
$140.00 lodging
$241.00 lift tickets
$24.00 ski bus fare
$40.00 airport shuttle
TOTAL: $745.00

OR for slopeside at Alta vs. Mountain Road in Stowe:

Stowe:
$92.13 gas
$516.00 lodging
$200 meals
$336.00 lift tickets
TOTAL: $1,144.13

Alta:
$300.00 airfare
$752.00 lodging and all meals
$241.00 lift tickets
$68.00 airport shuttle (Canyon Transport round-trip to/from Alta from SLC International)
TOTAL: $1,361

Would you still rather go to Stowe? Seriously.

The point of all of this is that despite the popular misperception espoused by berkshire skier earlier in this thread, there is no price premium for many Vermont skiers to ski out here instead.

Admin, you forgot that it's Woodchuck Day at $towe tomorrow. (where is emoticon of someone ducking from a snowball?)

Carry on...
 
How many people actually do either of these solo? I think a 2x factor would be more reasonable and how obtainable is a $300 airfare on short notice
 
skimore":q5c70j5h said:
How many people actually do either of these solo? I think a 2x factor would be more reasonable

A lot of people do it solo -- Andy from NYC this past weekend was just the latest example. However, since you asked let's re-analyze it based on 2 people:

Stowe:
$92.13 gas
$516.00 lodging
$672.00 lift tickets
TOTAL: $1,280.13, or $640.07 pp

Alta:
$600.00 airfare
$140.00 lodging
$482.00 lift tickets
$48.00 ski bus fare
$80.00 airport shuttle
TOTAL: $1,350.00, or $675.00 pp

Would you spend an extra $35 to vacation in Utah over Vermont for four days? You betcha!

skimore":q5c70j5h said:
and how obtainable is a $300 airfare on short notice

Piece of cake. You could likely find it for less even. Although remember that it doesn't need to be short notice here. A couple of weeks out is more than sufficient, for we don't get the season-stopping deluge/refreezes here. Chasing snow on a few hours' notice isn't necessary.
 
You can easily knock off $200 on lodging by staying a few miles out of the village
2day lift tix can be obtained for $120
You'd have conveinence with a car
 
I'm in Utah for 8 days of skiing. Lift tix come to about $500 (there are discounts on lift tix at ski shops, super markets and the Utah Super Pass)

You can get airfare for $300 if you go after Prez week. I just checked and Delta flies out of Syr for $299. I could have gotten it that cheap for this current trip if I purchased tickets in Sept (but I used my frequent flyer miles).

If you want to come this weekend it's about $500.

Renting a car is expensive, but the bus is cheap and some hotels have shuttles to the ski areas.

Kevin, I know you can round up 3 friends and split the cost of a hotel room and a vehicle and make it affordable and well worth it.

Even if we didn't get the fresh snow this weekend and with Utah in it's recent (but improving) low-snow conditions, it is still better than skiing in NY and most of the NE right now.
 
skimore":1q5k46qd said:
You can easily knock off $200 on lodging by staying a few miles out of the village

OK, I'll play:
  • Commodore's Inn, south of the village: January – March 2010 $88 – 128 Single, $118 – $178 Double (they call themselves "affordable")
  • The Best Western in Waterbury, VT: $159 weekends, $109 weeknights
  • The Sunset Motor Inn in Morrisville, VT: $102.33/night

Where exactly are you staying and "easily" knocking off $200?

skimore":1q5k46qd said:
2day lift tix can be obtained for $120

A 2-day is $155 from Stowe. I'm comparing window rates to window rates, and you know as well as I do that a four-leaf clover is easier to find than a discounted Stowe ticket. I'm sure lots of folks would like to hear as well where you find a two-day Stowe ticket for $120. But as PQ points out, discounts are available here too:

Powderqueen":1q5k46qd said:
I'm in Utah for 8 days of skiing. Lift tix come to about $500 (there are discounts on lift tix at ski shops, super markets and the Utah Super Pass)

Which is more per day than the walk-up one-day window rate at Alta.

Powderqueen":1q5k46qd said:
Renting a car is expensive

It is? :shock:

Rates for tomorrow:

  • Enterprise Compact or Intermediate: $27.99 USD/day
  • Fox Rent A Car: Economy $17.50/day, Compact $19.54/day, Intermediate $19.80/day

If that's expensive, how do you define an inexpensive car rental? That's called a bicycle. Book in advance and/or book for a week and the rates are less than what's quoted above. So if you've got three people a car is at least as cheap as fare on the Ski Bus. Even for two it's just plain silly to not rent a car.

The point of this whole exercise was to illustrate that there is no price premium for someone from NYC, etc. to ski here as opposed to skiing in Vermont, and that point has been illustrated clearly without the need to drill down into minutiae.

Powderqueen":1q5k46qd said:
Even if we didn't get the fresh snow this weekend and with Utah in it's recent (but improving) low-snow conditions, it is still better than skiing in NY and most of the NE right now.

Yes it is, but again, let's look at definitions. What you're defining as "low-snow conditions" is a 100-inch base. When was the last time NY or the NE had a 100-inch base? At the Mt. Mansfield snow stake it was a couple of days in March 2008...right before it rained and they lost a foot in a day. Take a look at where our base is by March:

29-year average base depth by month at Alta:
Jan Feb Mar Apr
83" 105" 124" 128"

(BTW, you'll note that you're not here in "low-snow conditions" but right on the mark for the 29-year average. So, you're here in "average conditions".)

But I'll tell you...whether we have 100 inches or 200 inches, it skis precisely the same. Everything is covered now the same as it would be covered with 200 inches. And Sunday's snowfall had no measurable effect whatsoever on our base.
 
Admin":1w0w9hg6 said:
jamesdeluxe":1w0w9hg6 said:
Good grief, if you're going to include car depreciation in this analysis, you might as well throw in the potential life-shortening effects of cosmic radiation absorbed during the flight.

Unlike your ridiculous comparison, depreciation on the automobile is a true cost associated with a 670-mile drive. However, fine...if you want to play that way I will. Take your pick -- for staying in the Salt Lake Valley...
No no no!
He's wrong! Totally wrong! His analysis is completely whacked! Stay in the Northraineast! It's obviously far cheaper - it just has to be!!!
Yes - stay home.
All of you.
 
Admin":23ejycmj said:
skimore":23ejycmj said:
You can easily knock off $200 on lodging by staying a few miles out of the village

OK, I'll play:
  • Commodore's Inn, south of the village: January – March 2010 $88 – 128 Single, $118 – $178 Double (they call themselves "affordable")
  • The Best Western in Waterbury, VT: $159 weekends, $109 weeknights
  • The Sunset Motor Inn in Morrisville, VT: $102.33/night

Where exactly are you staying and "easily" knocking off $200?

skimore":23ejycmj said:
2day lift tix can be obtained for $120

A 2-day is $155 from Stowe. I'm comparing window rates to window rates, and you know as well as I do that a four-leaf clover is easier to find than a discounted Stowe ticket. I'm sure lots of folks would like to hear as well where you find a two-day Stowe ticket for $120. But as PQ points out, discounts are available here too:



The point of this whole exercise was to illustrate that there is no price premium for someone from NYC, etc. to ski here as opposed to skiing in Vermont, and that point has been illustrated clearly without the need to drill down into minutiae.

http://www.farmresortgolf.com/ about 4 miles out of town $79 night

https://www.workingadvantage.com/pr...rodID=2209&sid=55109920100202080730.433200700
Lift tickets for $120

No price premium? That $300 airfare is booking in advance. So what are the chances of getting skunked? 50/50?
 
Powderqueen":3lc58qwk said:
Kevin, I know you can round up 3 friends and split the cost of a hotel room and a vehicle and make it affordable and well worth it.
I'm not stating that its not. When I head that way I go last minute and pay the extra costs associated to get good snow.
 
Sorry I started all this feuding :stir: In my situation I always travel alone, except for this week when we leave for JHWY tomorrow, my wife is coming so she can see her family who live in JH full time. Otherwise, I get "ski credits" during the rest of the year watching the kids while my wife trains and shows her horses and also by cutting pastures, spreading manure and tending to our horse farm during the rest of the year. Oh yah, I also work 50hr a week in my office. Winter is my downtime on our farm so I ski as much as possible.

That said, I find it infinately more enjoyable to go out West for less money than going to Vermont or NH to risk rain, ice, wind and frigid temps. I sleep and read on the plane, usually use FF Miles to upgrade to the front of the plane, and sleep great at night without being awoken by our two and five year old. When my wife and I go away together, like this week, we have to kennel the dogs, pay the nanny lots more money to care for the kids full time for 5 days, and pay our farm help to come twice a day to care for the horses. It is not cheap for both my wife and I to go skiing for more than a day trip together. Hence, when I go by myself, I go out West! Even a groomer day out West is better than a good day out East. At least you can rip the groomers without have someone run into you, or vice versa. Anyway, good luck getting one of those cheap Vermont motel rooms last minute! You can ALWAYS find a cheap room in the SLC Valley last minute. And the cheap room is much nicer than what you find in NE! :popcorn:
 
Powderqueen":3qhhourw said:
Even if we didn't get the fresh snow this weekend and with Utah in it's recent (but improving) low-snow conditions, it is still better than skiing in NY and most of the NE right now.
Utah is great, I'm not going to get into that.

Here are some post from this weekend in the East. Okay, it's far from NYC, but I don't live in NY and there is no way I can fly for $300 to make it out West.


St-Mathieu, Janaury 30th
http://www.zoneski.com/forum/index.php? ... 11779&st=0

Massif, January 30th
http://www.zoneski.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=11776

Mont Comi, January 30th
http://www.zoneski.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=11770

That's on small mountain in far Eastern Quebec and it doesn't count? Okay, here some stuff from VT:

http://www.famousinternetskiers.com/sur ... #more-2329

http://www.famousinternetskiers.com/sur ... #more-2347

http://www.famousinternetskiers.com/gre ... #more-2360

KC IS the Powderqueen laughing all the way to the bank. :stir:
 
skimore":116drt3x said:
No price premium? That $300 airfare is booking in advance. So what are the chances of getting skunked? 50/50?

Skunked by what? Good snow? Damned close to zero. Powder? Worse than 50/50.

And yes, you can get $300 last-minute. You just need to look hard and be creative. This year I flew to Tampa for Christmas, on peak travel days, for $248 round-trip and booked less than a week in advance.

I've provided ample evidence that there's no price premium. Hell, based on the initial analysis you could pay $500 for airfare and it's still a wash. You still want to believe that there is? Knock yourself out, more snow for me.
 
Admin":3vkxnzbd said:
I've provided ample evidence that there's no price premium. Hell, based on the initial analysis you could pay $500 for airfare and it's still a wash. You still want to believe that there is? Knock yourself out, more snow for me.
Can we get back to the depreciation on my car?
 
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