ridiculous

[joegm]

:roll:

click on this and look at what they are putting up on the site and outside the shop

http://www.basinski.com/

why are we closed indeed..


the spring season discussion about sugarloaf makes for interesting talk but we should get back to reality and focus on what should be the late season option that works best for the most amount of people with the least amount of aggravation....the answer is killington....the set up, the location, the ability of new yorkers and massachusetts skiers to get there in three hours, places to stay , places to eat, and the ability of the hill to hold snow late ( see the pics and remember that SS in those photos now has that coverage WITHOUT the past amount of snowmaking that they would do back in the day) .... it all comes back to killington.,. or at least it should....sugarloaf is a nice idea that will never work long term because they just will not get the draw because of the location....it's that simple....killington should be the late season option....it just makes the most sense .....that photo of SS right now is a disgrace

 

[rfarren]

Powdr Corp RAH RAH RAH

Powdr Corp SHISH KOOM BAH

Powdr Corp!

At least its not Bachelor, which will have 3000 acres of skiable terrain sitting there melting away, with nobody to enjoy it.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

How many threads are you going to start with the same topic?
:wink:

 

[joegm]

How many threads are you going to start with the same topic?
:wink:

instead of posting a useless crack like that, why not use the time to email chris nyberg at killington and tell him how much his company sucks for continuing the outrageous policy of not skiing through may :?

 

[Tony Crocker]

Mt. Bachelor has had 566 inches of snow this year, and the current base depth at the bottom of that 3,100 vertical is 136 inches. Yet I have read that under Powdr Corp's management Mt. Bachelor's skier visits are down 15% from last year. Shows what great customer service can do.

Powdr Corp took over Mt. Bachelor in 2003 and they are still there. So I wouldn't expect a change in Killington's direction anytime soon. I think it would take a massive defection to other ski areas, slashing Killington's income, to prompt a change in strategy or sale to a new owner. And despite the brave talk from (mainly) the disgruntled former lifetime passholders last fall, I don't think there is any evidence Killington took a revenue hit this year.

So in some sense I see the point in joegm's persistent posts. Logistically he's right about Killington being the most sensible spot for late season in the East. And the only way it will ever happen is via a drumbeat of negative publicity that results in a meaningful impact upon Killington's bottom line. I think it's a longshot though, and success if it comes will take many years.

In the meantime joegm should patronize Sugarbush/MRG, which seem quite hospitable to former Killington bumpers and late season skiers.

 

[Harvey]

Basin looks like a decent shop, outside of their lack of teley gear. The only problem with their post/comment is the use of the word "we" in the sentence "why are we closed?" They aren't the owners.

Does look like it's worth the hike up there.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

the outrageous policy of not skiing through may :?

For all I know, there may be a lot of hardcore skiers who are employed by Powdr, but it appears that the bean counters run the show there, and by nature, bean counters have one clear mission: to make money (i.e. cut losses). To that end, the company has taken a hard line: "spring skiing does not make us money, ergo, we will not damage our bottom line by providing a product that appeals to only a small part of our clientele and causes us red ink."

As Tony has said, about the only thing that could change this policy is a massive allegiance switch to Sugarbush, which has made a concerted warm-n-fuzzy attempt to reach out to skiers, even if some of its policies cost them money in the short run. There is a similar situation in the Catskills. Belleayre -- backed by state money -- stays open 2-3 weeks later than privately-owned Hunter and Windham because it's prepared to take a financial hit that the other areas can't justify.

Even though everyone here admires your tenacity, you're tilting at windmills. It's pretty clear that Powdr is prepared to weather any and all negative publicity surrounding issues like the negated Killington lifetime pass, spring skiing, and whatever else people are bitching about. In other words, Powdr doesn't give a crap what you think unless your actions are demonstrated to be costing the company money.

Until the day that Win and Co. are shown to be making serious coin from their commitment to spring skiing, uprisings from a few disgruntled customers aren't gonna change Powdr's strategy.

 

[Harvey]

...you're tilting at windmills...

I thought that was the whole point of the internet.

Don't stop Joe! We'll need some gasoline to get this fire through the summer.

:wink:

 

[Patrick]

If I would be in New England, that New England pass from Boyne would look very attractive to me.

Sunday River one day opening on October 31 and Sugarloaf closing yesterday. Always said that Sugarloaf was a great late season candidate, however it was not as accessible as the other major hills in the East which was probably a main reason for closing before it's time.

I think that Boyne is aggressive (which looks like they are), Powdr might find themselve with an ever stricking base. Kmart still has the "reputation" for it's long season among average Joe skier (not taking about Joegm)...regardless of reality. After a few years, the less die-hards with start noticing Sugar-River as the new King of long seasons*. That will have a snowball effect as time goes on. Plus Boyne's pass is good to a few mountain a bit like the old ASC pass used to do.

* For this to become reality:
1) Powdr still runs Kmart the way they did this season.
2) Boyne still continues trying to open early and closing late regardless of bean counters.

 

[Sharon]

Joegm,

Why not rally the Killingtonzoners to move themselves to another ski area in protest...and not just for one day? There seems to be a lot of them, and if they all didn't buy seasons passes at Killington, then maybe Powdr will get the message.

It isn't the skiers that are upset...can you imagine how the business owners are feeling? I'm sure they have a significant drop in sales this year...especially for the month of May? What about the mini-skirt party? The loss of jobs. The drop in property values. It is all such a shame.

On the other hand...if all the Killington Yahoos went elsewhere, I'm sure the mid-winter ski experience is much improved. I stopped going there because I couldn't deal with the crowds on the slopes as well as everywhere else there. I live in the country, and when I go skiing in the mountains, I don't like it when it feels like a city. Killington always felt like a city to me. Maybe it will be more like a mountain town if it keeps up like this.

 

[Geoff]

Why not rally the Killingtonzoners to move themselves to another ski area in protest...and not just for one day? There seems to be a lot of them, and if they all didn't buy seasons passes at Killington, then maybe Powdr will get the message.

I think the majority of Killington season pass holders weren't affected by the policies of the new owners. Most of them didn't ski in October. Most of them moved on to other things by mid-April. What they saw was detoxified weekend skiing midwinter when they were there. Due to the cold early season, they also saw a really nice first 7 weeks of the season through New Years day where every day had new terrain and a good & uncrowded skiing surface. Prices went up for season passes but not enough to chase people away. Transportation and housing (and bar tab) are still the dominant costs. Other than jacking up the prices on kid programs; something I think was really stupid; they didn't do a whole lot to alienate their mainstream season pass base beyond wrecking a good party at the Mogul Challenge.

I was one of the 10 people out skiing in the rain at Sugarbush 9:00 last Saturday morning. I'm one of the small minority of Killington's customers who actually likes skiing the White Ribbon of Death in October and suffers through their midwinter product to be able to spring ski in April and on into May. Internet message boards are full of people like me. We're mutants. Everybody else has gardening, Little League, golf, and lawn dart events scheduled. When I show up at the office on a Monday morning with a deep tan and a smile, everybody is incredulous that I'm still skiing. I work with a lot of skiers including a number with season passes and they all bagged it pretty early in April.

As long as somebody offers a lift-serviced spring product, I'll be there. It's inconvenient that I can't roll out of bed at my Killington place and go skiing there but I had just as good a time at Sugarbush and Mount Snow over the last couple of weekends. I hope Mount Snow will be taking up the baton once they get their pipeline built to improve their water supply to go along with all those fan guns they're buying. It's inconvenient for me but they certainly have the right location for the Boston and New York markets.

 

[Harvey]

Geoff...maybe it was you in another post, or someone else, mentioning it another time...what do you mean by "detoxifying" the mountain?

 

[Tony Crocker]

Geoff has good points, and as the only Killington regular posting here is likely to see the big picture better than those of us critiquing from the sidelines.

Due to my extreme distaste for what Powdr has done at Mt. Bachelor, my gut reaction is to fan the flames at Killington. But one needs to look at the whole picture, as Geoff has to because he's invested there, in order to make a balanced judgment.

If the product has been improved for the key clientele of Christmas-through-March weekenders who provide most of the revenue, we cannot expect any change in Killington's strategy.

Internet message boards are full of people like me. We're mutants.

Very true. I think admin has commented that there are tens or even hundreds of lurkers for every one of us posters. We're not at all representative of the skiing community as a whole. Particularly on topics like the very early and late seasons. Eastern powder skiing is another such topic IMHO.

 

[joegm]

Tony wrote:
In the meantime joegm should patronize Sugarbush/MRG, which seem quite hospitable to former Killington bumpers and late season skiers.

I give them credit.. but wildcat stayed open just as long as they did and cat is 1hours from where I am as opposed to bush mrg which would be 2 …I don’t consider what mrg or bush or cat did “ late season “, frankly…. I consider late season memorial day like K used to do…if cat was not open , I would have made the 2 hour drive to bush and mrg, but it would silly for me to do that with cat still spinning…
Yet I have read that under Powdr Corp's management Mt. Bachelor's skier visits are down 15% from last year. Shows what great customer service can do.

As geoff has pointed out on other boards, this is what they wanted… lower visits but higher margins per visit…doesn’t mean they still don’t suck


Harvey wrote:
Does look like it's worth the hike up there.

Guess it depends on much of a sickie you are !!!!



James wrote
In other words, Powdr doesn't give a crap what you think unless your actions are demonstrated to be costing the company money.

I think you are right that they don’t care.. but what I can say is I had a pass there from 01 through 06….a prepaid season pass that I did not use probably more than 10 times total during the 6 seasons between jan 1 and april 1….( as geoff calls it, the mid winter product)
I had no use for the mid winter product…that pass was for the ribbon of death and SS in may…I stopped buying the pass and have emailed them telling them in a civilized tone how much they suck.. don’t know what else I can do personally….

Harvey wrote
Don't stop Joe! We'll need some gasoline to get this fire through the summer.

Pat wrote
If I would be in New England, that New England pass from Boyne would look very attractive to me.

Sunday River one day opening on October 31 and Sugarloaf closing yesterday. Always said that Sugarloaf was a great late season candidate, however it was not as accessible as the other major hills in the East which was probably a main reason for closing before it's time.

I think that Boyne is aggressive (which looks like they are), Powdr might find themselve with an ever stricking base. Kmart still has the "reputation" for it's long season among average Joe skier (not taking about Joegm)...regardless of reality. After a few years, the less die-hards with start noticing Sugar-River as the new King of long seasons*. That will have a snowball effect as time goes on. Plus Boyne's pass is good to a few mountain a bit like the old ASC pass used to do.

* For this to become reality:
1) Powdr still runs Kmart the way they did this season.
2) Boyne
still continues trying to open early and closing late regardless of bean counters.



I always forget about pat and our Canadian friends and I don’t mean to do that….but I stand by my point that the boston / new york people/money, will not drive to loaf …. I think Sunday river would be a gamble with better odds than loaf, but still would be a risk in an equation that is already risky to a degree, even for K….but that doesn’t mean they should not do it….

someone else said something about them not being able to make money with the late season or whatever…I’ve addressed this before and consider it ridiculous…it’s a phony assertion that none of us can quantify….if the decision on whether to spin or not is made on a daily cost / daily ticket revenue basis, they would not spin during the week at all…..if they bring in money from passes and turn around and try and peg the decision to spin on any given late season day based on daily ticket revenues, it completely throws the season pass revenues out of the equation… and how they hell can one do that? .. you can’t, if you are being honest in your cost analysis.. unless of course you buy into this phony argument that is offered up about daily ticket revenues not justifying spinning…the issue of the cost is a lot of crap.. what is the cost of spinning SS in may?.... the cost of energy to spin the lift, a few ski patrollers and lifties and a ticket seller and the insurance cost…they don’t need to open the café and order food and all that unless they think they can actually make money on it,,,,which if they can fine…if it’s a drain , shut it down… who cares…bring your own lunch….change in the lot ...put out a few picnic tables and benches....this not being worth it for them is a trap argument that is a slap in the face to season pass holders and it surprises me how many people get sucked in by it…..some golf courses stay open until the weather and the surface conditions prevent play... gold courses deal with season pass holders and daily green fees....golf courses have to staff/ expend money to operate in the late season...so what the hell is the difference?...

Sharon wrote:
On the other hand...if all the Killington Yahoos went elsewhere, I'm sure the mid-winter ski experience is much improved. I stopped going there because I couldn't deal with the crowds on the slopes as well as everywhere else there. I live in the country, and when I go skiing in the mountains, I don't like it when it feels like a city. Killington always felt like a city to me. Maybe it will be more like a mountain town if it keeps up like this.

I think geoff’s reports demonstrate they have addressed that issue….as much as I have battled with geoff over the issue of bumps and how they manage their terrain ( which I still think he is totally wrong about ) I think he has a good read on what and why and how they addressed this….and I have to admit , the lawn dart party crack still has me laughing



Geoff wrote
As long as somebody offers a lift-serviced spring product, I'll be there. It's inconvenient that I can't roll out of bed at my Killington place and go skiing there but I had just as good a time at Sugarbush and Mount Snow over the last couple of weekends


Let me ask you this geoff and I’m not being wise guy… would you, if you lived in k, which I know you don’t, would you roll out of bed and drive to sugarloaf for day of skiing in may?

Harvey wrote
Geoff...maybe it was you in another post, or someone else, mentioning it another time...what do you mean by "detoxifying" the mountain?

He can answer himself but I think the jist is they cut the skier visits by a very big number but raised the revenue per skier quite a bit …

 

[Geoff]

As geoff has pointed out on other boards, this is what they wanted… lower visits but higher margins per visit…doesn’t mean they still don’t suck

They might suck for the fraction of the customer base that wanted a discount product (introduced by ASC a few years ago) and for those of us who have always skied in October and May. They certainly suck if you got laid off or had a lifetime pass. If you are part of their mainstream affluent target market, they don't suck. ...and for the record, I do think they suck. I own real estate in town and I have to live with it in the short term. I've spent my entire adult life there. If I look at the speedcall list on my cell phone, most of the people have some connection with Killington. I see no point in building up a ton of hate over a situation that I have no control over. Skiing lets me escape from the real world. I see no point in being miserable while I'm doing it.

Geoff wrote
As long as somebody offers a lift-serviced spring product, I'll be there. It's inconvenient that I can't roll out of bed at my Killington place and go skiing there but I had just as good a time at Sugarbush and Mount Snow over the last couple of weekends


Let me ask you this geoff and I’m not being wise guy… would you, if you lived in k, which I know you don’t, would you roll out of bed and drive to sugarloaf for day of skiing in may?

No. I've done that drive when I did indeed live at Killington. It sucks. Even Sunday River is 3+ hours. There ain't no east-west roads. Of course, lodging at Sugarloaf is dirt cheap in May. You spend more in transportation costs than lift and lodging.

Harvey wrote
Geoff...maybe it was you in another post, or someone else, mentioning it another time...what do you mean by "detoxifying" the mountain?

He can answer himself but I think the jist is they cut the skier visits by a very big number but raised the revenue per skier quite a bit …

I'm talking about the "out of box" experience. You show up on a Saturday. The base lodge isn't jammed. The trails aren't jammed. You don't feel like you're going to get run down like a dog. (Well, it's Killington so there are still moments where the agressive behavior is noticable). It's better than the last few years when ASC had all those cheap blackout passes and tons of ways of getting discounted day tickets.

Killington should be open. POWDR and Chris Nyberg suck. Unless I unload my condo in a very down real estate market, I'm stuck with it for the moment and Vermont tax structure makes it undesirable to buy and sell real estate unless it's your primary residence. I've always had this love/hate thing with the place but I haven't left yet and that's more to do with all the 20+ year friendships I've made at the place.

 

[joegm]

that's my point about sugarloaf,,,, it's too damn far... it won't ever work...and very rarely would they be in a postion to ski through may if they didn't set up a superstar like course with the snowmaking ....i don't see them doing that.....and frankly if they did, they would be fools cause no ones gonna go cause it's too far...
this idea of late skiing has been hijacked in my opinion by opportunistic places like loaf and sugarbush....late season skiing has been re defined right before our eyes ....but im not falling for it....real late season skiing was defined by mighty K back when it was mighty K...look at the charts... the charts don;t lie....i appreciate the effort by loaf and bush ....but if they really were trying to be the king of spring, they would do what K did on SS back in the day..all they are doing ( bush and loaf, are taking advantage of a situation being presented to them by nature.....they should be recognized for it, but don't think some it doesn't have to do with them being opportunistic... if the natural snow retention was not there this year, you can bet your ass they would have closed a lot sooner....

 

[Patrick]

Pat wrote

If I would be in New England, that New England pass from Boyne would look very attractive to me.

Sunday River one day opening on October 31 and Sugarloaf closing yesterday. Always said that Sugarloaf was a great late season candidate, however it was not as accessible as the other major hills in the East which was probably a main reason for closing before it's time.

I think that Boyne is aggressive (which looks like they are), Powdr might find themselve with an ever stricking base. Kmart still has the "reputation" for it's long season among average Joe skier (not taking about Joegm)...regardless of reality. After a few years, the less die-hards with start noticing Sugar-River as the new King of long seasons*. That will have a snowball effect as time goes on. Plus Boyne's pass is good to a few mountain a bit like the old ASC pass used to do.

* For this to become reality:
1) Powdr still runs Kmart the way they did this season.
2) Boyne
still continues trying to open early and closing late regardless of bean counters.

I always forget about pat and our Canadian friends and I don’t mean to do that….but I stand by my point that the boston / new york people/money, will not drive to loaf …
I think Sunday river would be a gamble with better odds than loaf, but still would be a risk in an equation that is already risky to a degree, even for K….but that doesn’t mean they should not do it…..

Sorry I was talking about myself or people with the same interest in getting as many weeks out of their pass people living in New England/metro Boston. Not necessarily about the masses as I do realize that K location is ideal for the extended Eastern market.

What I was looking as a young adult was a place that could make "non-skiing" months shorter. Kmart provided it to me from the mid-80s till the late 90s. No one has stepped up to fill in the void and pretty much all the contenders close at roughtly the same time.

We've had this discussion a few years ago, but I still believe that without blowing crazy amounts of snow like the old SS days and without changing the lift configuration. Sugarloaf, Tremblant and Mont Ste-Anne would the best to offer late May skiing. K would join that list if they would go back to a similar setup to the old K Peak chair days. Of course, it would be very surprising if Intrawest, RCR and Powdr would even care about going it.

I've been real impressed by Jay running the lifts on Sunday. No food service, just one lift running. The cost would have been pretty minimal for $25. Really impressed by Sugarloaf continuing into May even if it's far. There are a few places smaller places in Quebec that could last well into May, but small areas like Le Valinouet, Val d'Irene and Mont Miller have such a small base of customer and are so far away for a real population basin.

Sugarloaf could be the last of the big Eastern areas to close by just letting people ski until the snow is gone. Of course, I'm taking for granted that no one at Tremblant, MSA or K (K Peak only) are up for the challenge. Small remote areas in Quebec could do it if they wished and had the financial backing/incentive. This said, MSS might be the last place to close this season, so if this small hill (vertical size only)/big (customer/market) can do it...others could to. (places is also favoured by climat, but much less than a bunch of other places like the top of Tremblant, MSA, etc).

someone else said something about them not being able to make money with the late season or whatever…I’ve addressed this before and consider it ridiculous…it’s a phony assertion that none of us can quantify….if the decision on whether to spin or not is made on a daily cost / daily ticket revenue basis, they would not spin during the week at all…..if they bring in money from passes and turn around and try and peg the decision to spin on any given late season day based on daily ticket revenues, it completely throws the season pass revenues out of the equation… and how they hell can one do that? .. you can’t, if you are being honest in your cost analysis.. unless of course you buy into this phony argument that is offered up about daily ticket revenues not justifying spinning…the issue of the cost is a lot of crap.. what is the cost of spinning SS in may?.... the cost of energy to spin the lift, a few ski patrollers and lifties and a ticket seller and the insurance cost…they don’t need to open the café and order food and all that unless they think they can actually make money on it,,,,which if they can fine…if it’s a drain , shut it down… who cares…bring your own lunch….change in the lot ...put out a few picnic tables and benches....this not being worth it for them is a trap argument that is a slap in the face to season pass holders and it surprises me how many people get sucked in by it…..some golf courses stay open until the weather and the surface conditions prevent play... gold courses deal with season pass holders and daily green fees....golf courses have to staff/ expend money to operate in the late season...so what the hell is the difference?...

I agree with you on most of the logic behind your argument. Some ski areas take for granted the season pass holders in their equation, because they probably say that most of the revenue would still be coming in regardless of when we close early or not and that the skiing has already skied enough to break even on their passes anyway.

 

[icelanticskier]

the big k is not the only one that ruled spring. sunday river ruled pretty well in the 90's by keeping white heat/shockwave/obsession open till memorial day and it was great skiing. i worked at the summit hotel for 7 years and it was great skiing the heat till june for a few years and boyne could bring that back fer sure. boyne will keep somethin open as long or longer than anywhere else cuz they see where their advantage is and will capitalize on it. that paired with the more laid back less too cool for school attitude that plagues much of the no vt ski scene is gonna keep me and my peeps in the ski new england arena.
rog

 

[joegm]

i plead ignorance to sunday river running a lift till memorial day.. i was not aware of that... anyone have a chart for sunday river's closing dates
imo the question about boyne staying open late is going to be are they gonna commit to blowing snow like crazy , like K did on SS...as was evident this year, the natural snow , no matter how deep, falls apart at an unreal pace ... just look at the mansfield snowstake chart to see how that fell off the table from april 25th till now...and i just don't know if sunday river is going to draw the new york crowd ....everyone is important in life.. but the reality of this is it's all about metro boston and new york people and those are the people that would drive the success of any of this....portland me is not going to be a good enough substitute for any potential loss of new yorkers

 

[jasoncapecod]

.portland me is not going to be a good enough substitute for any potential loss of new yorkers

joe now your making sense :wink: :shock: