ridiculous

[joegm]

in regards to boyne: one thing i strongly disagree with what they are doing is offering the cheap season pass...this past year it cost me 500 for the loon/waterville pass... boyne cut the price to 350 for loon/ river and bush....certainly you can argue that loon/river/loaf is a superior list than is loon/ wv and cranmore....that's as bad an idea now as it was back when les rotten started doing it ....as geoff documents, it led to the toxicity at K....that scares me about boyne...idon;t understand why they did that and don't see how that would make it easier for them to justify putting money into snowmaking for a real late season trail

 

[icelanticskier]

i agree about the metro draws and yes portland me wouldn't make it viable as most of them are rivah passholders anyway. boston could make it work as would aggressive spring packages and such. new yorkers would have to be romanced into the idea that it would be worth the drive for 3+ days of perfect spring weather skiing.

i think both the rivah and k could make a go of it for both draws but, loon just hasn't had the rep as a late season ski place even though the locale would make total sense as joe has said.

i'm pumped!
rog

 

[Patrick]

i plead ignorance to sunday river running a lift till memorial day.. i was not aware of that... anyone have a chart for sunday river's closing dates

I don't have the ski areas dates, but I have my own. Here are the only days I've skied in late May, so I can only speak for those years.

Back in the day that Les Otten (SRiver) was going head-to-head with his grounds (K). I believe that White Heat had just opened in 1993-94 and Sunday River was trying to make it to June. Killington closed in the first few days of June also (exact dates are somewhere in the archives of FTO).


They did make it and probably closed on that day a few days later that weekend. Spring skiing was White Heat only. The flat rock top of the hill didn't have any snow, you had to walk about 300ft to make it to the snow. Bottom walk to the lift was maybe 100ft. There was maybe 1-2 short walks (if you didn't to damage your skis on the trail). White Heat was bumpers heaven. The only down side (I guess) was that you needed to take one lift (sorry forgot the name - it's the further Left(looker's side)) then walk about 400ft on a trail reach the last part of White Heat. To get to the lodge, you had to either walk up the trail and download or walk toward the bottom of the hill (1500ft?)

27 Su, 15 May 94 St-Sauveur
28 Su, 22 May 94 Killington
29 Su, 27 May 94 Sunday River
30 We, 1 Jun 94 Killington

30 days that season, but it was a busy late season.

Skied Sunday River twice in May, still had a lot of terrain and a few lifts running on May 13. Not sure when

25 We, 1 May 96 Sunday River
26 Mo, 13 May 96 Sunday River
27 Sa, 1 Jun 96 Killington

i just don't know if sunday river is going to draw the new york crowd ....everyone is important in life.. but the reality of this is it's all about metro boston and new york people and those are the people that would drive the success of any of this....portland me is not going to be a good enough substitute for any potential loss of new yorkers

I agree, geez are your sure your not a geographer. :wink: However if it doesn't happen at Kmart, there would be a viable alternative for a part of Kmart core market (ie. Boston area).

 

[Geoff]

.portland me is not going to be a good enough substitute for any potential loss of new yorkers

joe now your making sense :wink: :shock:

Err... as a Beast of the East long-timer, what loss?

 

[Geoff]

in regards to boyne: one thing i strongly disagree with what they are doing is offering the cheap season pass...this past year it cost me 500 for the loon/waterville pass... boyne cut the price to 350 for loon/ river and bush....certainly you can argue that loon/river/loaf is a superior list than is loon/ wv and cranmore....that's as bad an idea now as it was back when les rotten started doing it ....as geoff documents, it led to the toxicity at K....that scares me about boyne...idon;t understand why they did that and don't see how that would make it easier for them to justify putting money into snowmaking for a real late season trail

I thought Killington was amazingly bad when they had those $350 Bronze passes. It was also really bad the year they sold 'spring passes' that kicked in on March 1. That was, I think, 2001 when we had a huge March. You'd get on the K1 and see 7 people all with those cheap spring passes.

As I had it explained to me, the ASC execs were completely against all that discounting. It was jammed down their throats by the board of directors (Oak Hill). ...money guys rather than ski guys. In the short term, it generated some great revenue for them in quarters that are usually grim... important when you have big interest payments to make. The long term result at Killington was to chase away most of the premium business. In the Preston Smith era, there were no discounts. Passes broke even at 20 days. It was really tough to score a comp ticket. With ASC, it was desparation when faced with default on their debt that pushed them to it. The new owners at Killington have restored Preston Smith pricing. It's unfortunate that they killed the 7 month season.

 

[Geoff]

]i just don't know if sunday river is going to draw the new york crowd ....everyone is important in life.. but the reality of this is it's all about metro boston and new york people and those are the people that would drive the success of any of this....portland me is not going to be a good enough substitute for any potential loss of new yorkers

I agree, geez are your sure your not a geographer. :wink: However if it doesn't happen at Kmart, there would be a viable alternative for a part of Kmart core market (ie. Boston area).

I don't think there's anything magical about Killington as a May skiing destination.
To have reliable May skiing, you need:
* Ample water to make snow
* Proximity to the New York and Boston markets
* A north-facing slope with a base elevation of at least 2500 feet

The North Face at Mount Snow qualifies once they build their water pipeline. I think that's still a year off. The top of the resort is alleged to be 3600 feet though it's a little lower than that if you look on a topo map. The base of the North Face is right at 2500 feet. You can upload and download on their main high speed quad once the front melts out. The North Face has enough pitch to be interesting. Mount Snow is also investing heavily in efficient fan guns so it costs them less to blow big base depths than resorts with conventional snowmaking systems.

You could probably do it at Stratton, too.

 

[icelanticskier]

if boyne buys wildcat, they're lookin at it and lookin at the bowl skiers right of thompson brook for expansion, that could be a nice later spring option.

sunday river ran till end of may from 93-94 till 97 or 98 if i remember correctly.

mount snow may have some elevation but, pretty far south to last. and alot of the folks who ski late like those living in northern ne won't want to drive south and especially west to a mount snow and folks that live south will be well into gardening and golf mode.

rog

 

[Tony Crocker]

Geoff doesn't live in Killington, he lives in Portsmouth, same general location as icelantic. From there, distance to Sugarloaf is probably rather similar to distance to Killington.

As I mentioned in another thread a while back, I just don't get owning ski area real estate in the East. Given snow reliability, it makes little sense to be tied to one area. Riverc0il and icelantic run all over the place, making decisions week to week where to ski based upon the vagaries of eastern weather. Which is why they score consistently better conditions than the typical eastern skier.

Riverc0il touts the multiplicity of ski areas as an advantage of eastern skiing. Tie yourself to one hill and you throw that away.

I realize Geoff's situation is different. I think it's a no-brainer to advise easterners up front not to commit to one place. Deciding to get out of a 20-year commitment involving real estate and a group of friends is much more difficult.

 

[Geoff]

Geoff doesn't live in Killington, he lives in Portsmouth, same general location as icelantic. From there, distance to Sugarloaf is probably rather similar to distance to Killington.

Killington is 153 miles with the last 33 miles on secondary roads. 2 1/2 hours. Sugarloaf is something like 185 miles with 110 highway miles to Augusta and 75 painful miles on secondary roads. 3 1/4 is making good time.

As I mentioned in another thread a while back, I just don't get owning ski area real estate in the East. Given snow reliability, it makes little sense to be tied to one area.

You live in freakin' LA where the weather is decent all winter. In New England, there's crapola to do unless you ski every weekend. I've been skiing 50+ days per year my whole adult life. It's what I do. Even when it sucks, I'm outside in the fresh air getting some exercise and blowing the stink off. The economics of a season pass and renting a room in a share house work. Day tickets and hotels don't. Day tripping runs up horrific transportation costs. I'm affluent enough that I could afford my own place and that really improves my quality of life. You also end up with a very entrenched social life at the ski resort. You walk in the base lodge and know everybody. You can show up solo and immediately find somebody to ski with. You show up at a bar, restaurant, or shop and they know you by name. I've probably been in a dozen weddings of Killington friends over the years. I have several god kids either at Killington Mountain School or in the ski club programs. It's not just the skiing surface.

Riverc0il and icelantic run all over the place, making decisions week to week where to ski based upon the vagaries of eastern weather. Which is why they score consistently better conditions than the typical eastern skier.

Riverc0il touts the multiplicity of ski areas as an advantage of eastern skiing. Tie yourself to one hill and you throw that away.

I realize Geoff's situation is different. I think it's a no-brainer to advise easterners up front not to commit to one place. Deciding to get out of a 20-year commitment involving real estate and a group of friends is much more difficult.

No foolin'. The ASC malaise years really sucked and caused me to take a hard look at other resorts. Killington was awful with the crowds and attitude brought about by that discount program. I'd narrowed it down to Sugar-something or Stowe. I'm now trying to weigh the positives and negatives. Like it or not, Killington has been my weekend winter home and my roots for 25+ years. The drive, size of the resort, and quality tree skiing are pretty compelling. The skiing isn't bad if you stay off the groomed snowmaking terrain and use the woods. As a weekender, the new owners are only annoying early and late season or when something bad like an ice storm happens. It was actually kind of nice to get some early days at Sunday River and some closing days at Sugarbush and Mount Snow. It's tough enough to motivate myself to drive 5 miles to go ski Pico.

 

[joegm]

Killington is 153 miles with the last 33 miles on secondary roads. 2 1/2 hours. Sugarloaf is something like 185 miles with 110 highway miles to Augusta and 75 painful miles on secondary roads. 3 1/4 is making good time.

exactly.. that has been my point about sugarloaf... from my place in lincoln, K is 101 miles and probably about 2:15 drive time in clear weather, and from home K is 3 hours... whereas sugarloaf is almost 3:45 from lincoln and i'm sticking with the 5 handle from boston, with as geoff said, a suck ride.....not that route 4 is not somewhat of a pain in the ass, but it is nothing compared to the roads into kingfield....... for a large amount of people, the hour to hour and 1/2 or even 2 hour difference between driving 2 to 2 1/2 hours and 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 or 5 is exponetially and psychologically huge....and a lot of people are not going to do it....


i had not heard about boyne looking at wildcat...i did know they are looking to move it.... where did you hear that info ice?


i don't know how much geoff goes to K in the summer, but central Nh and lincoln in the summer is a really nice to place to be , to as geoff said, get the stink off....i think one of the things tony might not be appreciating as much is the summers in northern new england are quite nice.. from a purely skiing point of view, tony has valid points,,,but it is, for many , about more than that....i too like geoff , have considered other option, mainly stowe...the skiing is obviously superior to lincoln ,nh which is obviously somewhat inferior to K...i just never want to be in a postion where i make a conscious choice to not get in the car and go because i don't feel like driving 3 1/2 to 4 hours as opposed to 2 to 2 1/2... winter or summer

 

[joegm]

As I had it explained to me, the ASC execs were completely against all that discounting. It was jammed down their throats by the board of directors (Oak Hill). ...money guys rather than ski guys. In the short term, it generated some great revenue for them in quarters that are usually grim... important when you have big interest payments to make. The long term result at Killington was to chase away most of the premium business. In the Preston Smith era, there were no discounts. Passes broke even at 20 days. It was really tough to score a comp ticket. With ASC, it was desparation when faced with default on their debt that pushed them to it. The new owners at Killington have restored Preston Smith pricing. It's unfortunate that they killed the 7 month season.

so would your information incline you to tend to take otten off the hook on this?

i would guess that for the last 5 years, i have paid probably no more than 15 bucks a day to ski loon ( which is about 50% of the ski days ) .....that is absurd....it shouldn't be that cheap... when i was buying the bronze pass at K those years and only using it in nov and may, i was still beating them for probably 25 bucks a day, again, that is ridiculous from a business standpoint if you are looking at outside of it being a quick cash grab... the one year i bought the 199 spring pass i think it was like 10 bucks a day and i didn't ski a single day there that year prior to april 1st that year.....the cost of operating a big time hill like K or loon should not allow skiing for that amount of money ...something is going to suffer and it's pretty well been documented what those things are....


POLL:
for people who buy season passes... how much would you be willing to pay for a pass by august 1st of the upcoming ski season, at a hill that , within reason, would offer the 7 month season with at least 1 lift serviced trail?

 

[Geoff]

so would your information incline you to tend to take otten off the hook on this?

As I heard it in the cockpit of a Tartan 30 somewhere in Casco Bay, Les Otten didn't come up with the whole discounting thing and none of the ASC execs wanted it. Les Otten did a lot of harm to New England skiing but that's because of his hubris in trying to retain 51% control when ASC went public. If he'd sold enough stock to pay that huge debt down, the house of cards wouldn't have collapsed. He also sucked as a real estate developer. His quartershare formula at Sunday River just didn't translate to Attitash, The Canyons, and Steamboat. A bad idea executed poorly. After the over-borrowing, the real estate failure was the coffin nails.

i would guess that for the last 5 years, i have paid probably no more than 15 bucks a day to ski loon ( which is about 50% of the ski days ) .....that is absurd....it shouldn't be that cheap... when i was buying the bronze pass at K those years and only using it in nov and may, i was still beating them for probably 25 bucks a day, again, that is ridiculous from a business standpoint if you are looking at outside of it being a quick cash grab... the one year i bought the 199 spring pass i think it was like 10 bucks a day and i didn't ski a single day there that year prior to april 1st that year.....the cost of operating a big time hill like K or loon should not allow skiing for that amount of money ...something is going to suffer and it's pretty well been documented what those things are....

I think the whole point of season passes is that for every skier like you (or me), there will be a bunch who barely break even on it. I know a lot of people (hotel and day trip types) who bought ASC Bronze passes in some of the lean snow years and didn't break even. The problem with that business strategy is that the mountain is overrun with cheap season pass people when the skiing is good and the mountain is very taxed when conditions are lean and there aren't many acres to spread out all those people. It chases away the walk-up day ticket people. I like the Preston Smith/POWDR pricing better than the discount pricing. The pass is only a tiny fraction of my costs. Even if I were on day tickets, housing and transportation are still my biggest costs.

POLL:
for people who buy season passes... how much would you be willing to pay for a pass by august 1st of the upcoming ski season, at a hill that , within reason, would offer the 7 month season with at least 1 lift serviced trail?

I'd pay the prevailing Preston Smith rate. Break even was 20 or 21 days if you bought his pass on or before Columbus Day. It included summer use of the lifts. At $80 for a day ticket, that's $1600. Back then, there was no such thing as a blackout pass. Pres sold a huge number of those passes. They did sell a spring pass for around $350.00 but they were always secretive about it and had years where it wasn't offered... very much like how airlines do their pricing.

Pro-rated to a 5 month season instead of a 7 month season, Killington's $1050 pass price is pretty much in line with the old pricing.

 

[Tony Crocker]

There are divergent philosophies on how and where to ski. Like Riverc0il, Patrick and icelantic, I'm drawn to variety. As demonstrated by the L.A. market being the exact opposite to what Riverc0il and others have described in New England. We have one superlative ski area 5-6 hours away, which should be a compelling argument to buy real estate and have a season pass at that area.

Yet I've never been tempted to buy because I don't want to be tied to one place, even if it is as good as Mammoth. I only bought the MVP in spring 2005 because:
1) It was cheap with an 8-day breakeven point.
2) They were going to cut it off in the future to new entrants.
3) I was willing to lose money on it for a few years because I knew I would profit greatly once I retired.

It looked great in 2006, since I skied 16 days, plus 4 days after May 1 in 2005. But only 3 days in 2007 and 2 so far in 2008. I'd have a couple more this season if I'd been more careful on April 12.

I have to believe the cheap passes were a good strategy for Mammoth. The lodging and transportation costs are significant, as Geoff points out. Mammoth has restored its skier volume to its prior peak of the mid-1980's. The density issues Killington had are not much of a factor when you have 3,500 acres of wall-to-wall skiing with some of the best natural snow preservation in North America.

The other part of Mammoth's strategy under Intrawest/Starwood, building more high-end lodging and a village and attrating more destination business, has had only modest success. Clientele is now 85% SoCal vs. 95% before.

 

[joegm]

The problem with that business strategy is that the mountain is overrun with cheap season pass people when the skiing is good and the mountain is very taxed when conditions are lean and there aren't many acres to spread out all those people. It chases away the walk-up day ticket people.

no question about it... loon is a perfect example of that which is doubly insane becasue of the easy drive there in the first place... last year their cheapest option was 500... now it's been cut back down to 350 by boyne...that really concerns me and it would really concern me if i was sunday river longtimer with property there....

 

[icelanticskier]

guess it's time we all by a prius and head to the loaf, one big mutha!
rog

 

[Geoff]

guess it's time we all by a prius and head to the loaf, one big mutha!
rog

I suspect that once you pull those rock-hard tires off a Toyota Pious and put on snow tires, you get the same MPG as a conventional Honda Civic at the highway speeds most skiers drive. YMMV.

 

[icelanticskier]

my buddy fred lives in a very hilly area of western maine and has a prius with aggressive snows w/o the wheel covers for winter use and drives the thing everywhere and his mpg dropped from the mid 50's to 48-50 with the winter tires, not bad. my 95' accord wagon 5 speed was gettin 30-32 w/ snows in the winter and 34 now, not bad enough to buy somethin new yet + it only has 170,000 miles on it. gotta at least go to 2-250,000 b4 i retire her from the 15,000 miles i put on her between nov and june to ski.
rog

 

[Patrick]

Man, there is too many "Deep" discussions going on for me to comment on all of them (this one and the $4US gas prices).

There are divergent philosophies on how and where to ski. Like Riverc0il, Patrick and icelantic, I'm drawn to variety.

Although I would probably never own a cottage of any kind, that's just me. I'm more nomadic in nature than most people. I know a few people that own cottages and go every weekend or spend their summer vacation there, etc. I personally couldn't commit to one place. Same logic applies to winter. However I don't see anything wrong for people settling down to one place. There is many advantages to going it, being a road warrior can be tiring over time.

Geoff doesn't live in Killington, he lives in Portsmouth, same general location as icelantic. From there, distance to Sugarloaf is probably rather similar to distance to Killington.

As I mentioned in another thread a while back, I just don't get owning ski area real estate in the East. Given snow reliability, it makes little sense to be tied to one area. Riverc0il and icelantic run all over the place, making decisions week to week where to ski based upon the vagaries of eastern weather. Which is why they score consistently better conditions than the typical eastern skier.

Although like I mentioned above, I wouldn't do it...I don't see anything wrong for people that choose that route. What Tony is talking about is more storm chasing, however snow reliability and good conditions is another thing. Personally you cannot go wrong on ski/conditions reliability of places close to Kmart, MRV Valley, Stowe/Smuggs or the Loaf. All these are quality hills that have some good snowmaking and natural snowfall.

Regarding score consistently better conditions, you have to be able to find the goods and know where to get them. A lot of the stuff skied in these TR are off the map. Powderfreak has been at Stowe all year, however I don't think he envies anyone here regarding snow quality.

Owning a place and having a season pass has it's advantages. I'm personally not tied down, however this has a certain cost to it in traveling and lift tickets.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I'm more nomadic in nature than most people.

This is where Patrick and I are most alike in ski philosophy. Which is probably why I rag on him about some of the other aspects.

I think the "storm-chasing" mode is more important in the East, because in addition to scoring the powder it minimizes the downside, which is a much higher risk than in the West. So powderfreak, tied to one good area but flexible, does better IMHO that Patrick, who skis lots of places but is not very flexible.

I would point out that my own skiing is more like Patrick's, lots of places but planned far ahead. Since it's mostly in the West and based upon historical reliability, there are only infrequent disasters, like the Tropical Punch of 2005. But flexible skiers like Riverc0il are not impressed with the amount of lift-served powder I get. I'll see if I can improve the latter situation in retirement.

 

[Patrick]

So powderfreak, tied to one good area but flexible, does better IMHO that Patrick, who skis lots of places but is not very flexible.

Well, I don't think he's married and has kids + he seem to be able to ski any day of the week. I can take some days off, but these days aren't unlimited.

I would point out that my own skiing is more like Patrick's, lots of places but planned far ahead.

I am never have any planned ahead, it's always a last minute thing. Where I want to ski at that moment and where I think it will be the best. I definitely try to take advantage of it when I'm have to be in Montreal (rare), but I won't stop myself when if I don't have to go to MTL.

One of the big limitations are family obligations, anyone with school age children + wife in activities can relate. I could go skiing, but there is always a price to play. Give me the flexibility of 1994 (living with future wife, no kids, working on contract in Montreal - freedom to go skiing whenever) and today's money (ie. not living from contract to contract) - I wouldn't be missing much action. Come to think about it, I got 30 days in 1993-94 with 10 days in March including a few storms and I didn't miss much.

I personally didn't travel as much this year, because the skiing close to home was so good. I think I had pretty much some good flexibility when I only skied 24 times out of 56 on weekends. I can't say I'm envious of Riverc0il, powderfreak, salida and icelandic given my circumstances. You have to be able to balance out family and personal time. I think I've accomplish that pretty well. I could have gotten more Eastern action if I didn't decide to go out West or take Spring Break with the family.

The only way that I can hope to get my seasons to be similar to Powderfreak,Icelandic and salida, is to abandon my family and quit my job. :shock: