The Where Have the Moguls Gone Debate, 2009 Version

[joegm]

Hunter and Windham tallied 700,000 skier visits per year as compared to just 175,000 for Belleayre Mountain

I'm sure one of you easterners could make a more educated guess on the Hunter/Windham split, but I suspect Hunter does ~500,000, about the same as Mt. High. Big Bear's 2 mountains, under same ownership since 2002, do ~700,000 also, probably close to evenly split between the two.

Isn't that more tied to skier traffic? If you run a jillion people per day down a trail and groom it daily, it gets icy.

I agree with this, though Snow Summit has some of the state-of-the-art "powdermaker" groomers that grind up the hard surface into a surrogate of packed powder. I may have mentioned skiing freshly tilled snow by one of these on the Lutsen trip. I think Big Bear/Mt. High have an easier time with the grooming than Hunter. A normal midwinter day at Big Bear is sunny with highs in the 40's, resulting in melt/freeze conditions, easier to loosen up the snow. At Hunter I presume it's below freezing and overcast most of the time, more difficult to mitigate the hard snow.

Perhaps joegm would like to render his expert opinion on whether these bumps at Lutsen were seeded:

The snow was hard so I only skied the short pitch below me, but the bumps appear very symetrically spaced. Lutsen does ~100,000 skier visits. However, many Midwest ski areas make a strong effort to compensate for their terrain shortcomings. Racing and terrain parks are big, and it would not surprise me if they try to do something for the bumpers also.

my guess is those lines were not seeded.. but that is just a guess tony... the narrowness of the trail, the nice wind protection by the trees and the seemingly blue steepness of the trail makes me think that ....amazing what can be done with the right trail selection for bumps.. to bad places like Killington and loon can't figure that out.. if more places would pick better trails to let bumps up, you would hear me screaming less about seeding being necessary

 

[flyover]

Tony and joegm,

It is a difficult call to make from just one picture, but I'm pretty sure that is Upper/Lower Grizzly, in which case I am 95% sure those bumps are seeded. I say this for the following reasons.

1) In my experience, not enough Lutsen skiiers and boarders are doing the kind of skiing and riding that will bump-up a relatively wide trail like Grizzly. Most seasons I manage to ski a few days each at Lutsen and at MRG. I've skied MRG with some regularity since the late seventies and IMO the quality of their natural bumps results not just from the narrow and protected trails and the lack of grooming, but also from the above-average skill level and skiing style of MRG's customers. In other words, I think one of the reasons MRG has such good natural bumps is because more skiers are making more short-radius turns more of the time. In my experience at Lutsen, this simply isn't the case, especially since the advent of shaped skis and the rise in popularity of snowboarding, and especially on the wider and more moderately-pitched terrain like Grizzly. Because I can cherry-pick my days there, I generally ski Lutsen in soft conditions (powder/packed powder midwinter, or corn or getting soggy in April) ideal for forming natural bumps. Even when the skier traffic has been high, I don't think I have ever seen a wide-open trail like Grizzly properly bumped up at the end of the day just from being skied on. The Lutsen skiers and riders that are more interested and capable of making the kind of consistent short radius turns necessary to form good bumps tend to congregate on the narrower and more gladed and treed runs like Split Rock/Fall Line, Red Fox/Bear's Den and Cedar Ridge/Moose Maze. In my experience, those much narrower lines do tend to bump-up nicely with skier traffic. Thankfully, Lutsen generally leaves these lines alone.

2) Although I have never actually seen the bumps being seeded, and have not talked to Lutsen management or personnel, the bumps on Grizzly (and also over on Hari Kari) generally start abruptly, end abruptly, are extremely uniform and symmetric, and tend to be there even when everything else have been flattened by grooming.

3) Most of the molehills around here have at least one short seeded bump run. Although I don't see too many accomplished bump skiers around here, people seem to like the challenge or, even better, spectating from the chairlift.

 

[Geoff]

They've created a decent park and keep a seeded mogul run all season.

I have plenty of stories, but you'll have to come visit to hear them. You can find us every Saturday and Sunday at 10am at the bottom of the D lift with no lift line ever.

now how is that possible?.. how and where would they get the resources to do such a thing.. we all know, like our man Geoff from killington has said in the past, that maintaining a seeded mogul run is just a ridiculous expectatation for a mountain to do... you must be either be lying about that or just be really confused, cause if a place like the mighty K could not / would not do it in the past, there is no way a little piss ant hill like hunter could ever do such an expensive, undertaking.... :roll: :lol:


a short time ago Geoff wrote:

When Killington gets hit by an ice storm, they knock the mountain flat just like any other ski resort. You can still ski ice bumps places like Devils Fiddle or the Needles Eye liftline all day. Bear Mountain used to be bumper heaven. The market changed. It's now a big terrain park and half pipe. Deal with it. They're not going to make a bump course for the general public because it would get ruined every day and they'd have to reconstruct it at a pretty major expense. It's not like running a rake over the landing area in the terrain park. It's a huge amount of labor and a day's traffic of tourons turning it into wall bumps with the back side cut away would render the thing unskiable.


HMMMMMM !! I guess the market has yet shifted and changed again HUH ?


yes Geoff i know K is claiming they are going to this year ( just like they have promised in years pasts only for it to be a complete farce ) on a trail with no snowmaking and crappy lift access...we'll see how that works out.... :roll:

First: Welcome back

Second: Bite me!

Third: There are plenty of nice natural bump runs at Killington. The Light, Patsy's, and Low Rider, for instance. Never groomed.

Fourth: Killington is screwing with things to try to get the people to come back. I personally don't think seeded bumps will have any impact.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Killington is screwing with things to try to get the people to come back.

Not to take this discussion away from Hunter, but how many people has Killington lost over the last few years, both statistically and based on your anecdotal experiences?

 

[joegm]

Third: There are plenty of nice natural bump runs at Killington. The Light, Patsy's, and Low Rider, for instance. Never groomed.

Fourth: Killington is screwing with things to try to get the people to come back. I personally don't think seeded bumps will have any impact.

uhh, yeah.....patsy's and low rider are glades.... of course they are not groomed... ever :roll: .....the light ??? are you serious ?.....let me know when KMS freestyle starts training on the light ok geoff ?.....geoff, you know a good amount but you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to moguls...

they ought to seed 3 lines on skiers left of chute all the way down to the bottom of snowdon quad.... good snowmaking.. good lift access.. good length....good pitch..... one quarter width of the trail !!!! go ahead Geoff, tell us all why that is just stupid and ridiculous

 

[rfarren]

Third: There are plenty of nice natural bump runs at Killington. The Light, Patsy's, and Low Rider, for instance. Never groomed.

Fourth: Killington is screwing with things to try to get the people to come back. I personally don't think seeded bumps will have any impact.

uhh, yeah.....patsy's and low rider are glades.... of course they are not groomed... ever :roll: .....the light ??? are you serious ?.....geoff, you know a good amount but you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to moguls...

they ought to seed 3 lines on skiers left of chute all the way down to the bottom of snowdon quad.... good snowmaking.. good lift access.. good length....good pitch..... one quarter width of the trail !!!! go ahead Geoff, tell us all why that is just stupid and ridiculous

AHHH! Joe, give it up man! The 80's are over! It hasn't been since people wore neon that bumps were all the rage. Nowadays people prefer terrain. Glades are more important for a mountain than bump runs, as those who particularly seek out bumps at this point are fewer than those who seek out trees. Trails, are groomed to improve conditions, especially in the EC. I know you like bumps, but seriously, who enjoys ice mounds the size of a VW Beatle? I mean what's next; a rant on how shaped skis ruined skiing, how fat skis are bad because they aren't great in the bumps?

If you want bumps, hit the trees at least a few days after a powder dump, and avoid the vertical logs. O

 

[Marc_C]

they ought to seed 3 lines on skiers left of chute all the way down to the bottom of snowdon quad.... good snowmaking.. good lift access.. good length....good pitch..... one quarter width of the trail !!!! go ahead Geoff, tell us all why that is just stupid and ridiculous

AHHH! Joe, give it up man! The 80's are over! It hasn't been since people wore neon that bumps were all the rage. Nowadays people prefer terrain. Glades are more important for a mountain than bump runs, as those who particularly seek out bumps at this point are fewer than those who seek out trees.

Ooooh! Sounds like a throwdown to me! Cool!

 

[rfarren]

Ooooh! Sounds like a throwdown to me! Cool!

Yep, you were my inspiration.

 

[joegm]

what does the 80's being over have to do with putting in 1 seeded bump run three lines wide on 1 quarter of 1 trail on a hill with between 150 and 200 trails ?
what does what color your ski jacket is have to do with anything?
what does the statement " nowadays people prefer terrain" mean ?....that makes no sense
what does the statement " glades are more important than bump runs have to do with anything ?
if you understood anything about the the dicussion at hand, you realize that seeding the bumps and reseeding the bumps is how to avoid those ice mounds
why would i say fat skis are bad ? they serve a great purpose and are great for what they are designed for... just like mogul skis are great for what they are made for?
why would you post such a dubious post ? :roll:
aren't you a snowboarder?

 

[Bluebird Day]

Nowadays people prefer terrain. Glades are more important for a mountain than bump runs, as those who particularly seek out bumps at this point are fewer than those who seek out trees.

I can't speak for the crowd, but my bumps days ended 20 years ago. I'd rather ski deep steep terrain and stay out of the icy troughs. In my hay days, long past, I was cruising down bump runs in my blue Scott Superhots and Molnar Green skis. Oh yah, and starting off with a daffy stand at the top of the run..... WOW, I was a total ski geek! \/

 

[joegm]

Nowadays people prefer terrain. Glades are more important for a mountain than bump runs, as those who particularly seek out bumps at this point are fewer than those who seek out trees.

I can't speak for the crowd, but my bumps days ended 20 years ago. I'd rather ski deep steep terrain and stay out of the icy troughs. In my hay days, long past, I was cruising down bump runs in my blue Scott Superhots and Molnar Green skis. Oh yah, and starting off with a daffy stand at the top of the run..... WOW, I was a total ski geek! \/

bump skiing has changed quite a bit in the last 20 years....the techniques used then, and even more so now though , are the skills that make up a superior skier....you don't have to be 19 and on the us ski team to tackle skiing bumps... you need a good base of knowledge from non psia instructors , you need motivation and you need good terrain.....if you can ski bumps, you can ski all those steep lines with relative ease... if you can ski bumps you can pretty much ski anywhere on the hill with relative ease.... there is only one problem......you can't learn to ski bumps if there are not any good ones to ski....some people get this.. far to many do not...

 

[flyover]

the techniques used then, and even more so now though , are the skills that make up a superior skier....if you can ski bumps, you can ski all those steep lines... if you can ski bumps you can pretty much ski anywhere on the hill....

I agree completely with these statements. Bumps can teach, and help skiers further develop, a lot of specific skills and techniques extremely useful in powder, crud/variable off-piste conditions, trees, and steep, narrow and technical terrain. IMO, bump skiing requires, and therefore teaches (in no particular order):

- edge control and honed instincts about when to carve and when to smear,
- rhythm and the ability to quickly link fluid, short-radius turns,
- commitment to the fall line and a more precise understanding about how to use gravity and momentum to make those next few turns gracefully,
- quick-reflex terrain-management skills (very useful for tree skiers),
- balance and the distribution of the body's weight in relationship to the skis,
- the ability to anticipate, and therefore handle, a variety of snow surfaces in short amounts of terrain covered, and
- (sometimes, or maybe, for some skiers) better control and composure in the air, or, at least, when the skis are completely unweighted.

I do think that the variability in size, spacing, and surfaces of good natural moguls provide more fun and are better in terms of helping me to work on technique than seeded ones.

Although bumps may not be "all the rage" they were in decades past, just looking around when I ski, IMO enough skiers enjoy bumps to make it worthwhile for more resorts to keep more of them around. Until I see some hard data on cost, I'll also continue to believe that if little Lutsen can maintain 800 - 1200 vertical feet of decent seeded bumps (between Grizzly and Hari Kari), and, evidently, find it worth its while to do so, then so could a resort the size of Killington.

 

[Bluebird Day]

Actually, I have bump skied in the past 20 years, I just don't look for them. I attended steep & deep telemark clincs at Atla and JH in the past and part of the training is learning to use your center of balance and suspension in a tele stance. The bumps are a great place to test that and we had fun with that drill. I'd just would rather ski steep chutes and bowls.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Actually, I have bump skied in the past 20 years, I just don't look for them..... I'd just would rather ski steep chutes and bowls.

These are my preferences also. And nearly all of my skiing is at places that have the latter in abundance (most frequent Mammoth, Snowbird, Baldy plus travel farther afield). Thus I don't ski many bumps and I'm reminded at the end of each season in the West Bowl zipper line that I'm not very good at them.

But if my home hill were Lutsen or Hunter, I'd be in the moguls a whole lot more because that's probably the most interesting skiing at those places. No surprise flyover spends time in the bumps and has articulated better than I the utility of them for sharpening ski technique.

Glades are more important for a mountain than bump runs, as those who particularly seek out bumps at this point are fewer than those who seek out trees.

Hunter and most of the easy daytrip places in southern New England and MASH don't get enough natural snow for glade skiing to be viable very often. So, like Lutsen I'd vote for maintaining some bumps to make those places more interesting/challenging.

give it up man! The 80's are over!

I think the 80's were before rfarren's time. :lol: Certainly before much of his ski time.

I can't speak for the crowd, but my bumps days ended 20 years ago.

From my perspective here in SoCal the demise of mogul skiing since the 80's is fairly simple to explain. There is a stereotype that bump skiing is a young person's avocation. The teen/20's generation is now half snowboarders (much more in SoCal) and I don't see too many snowboard mogul specialists. Mogul skiing was the rage for much of that age group in the 70's and 80's but terrain parks (for skiers as well as snowboarders) now have that attraction. But speaking for us old farts I'd rather take my chances in the bumps any day vs. a terrain park.

 

[jasoncapecod]

I am sitting here thinking about all the EC areas I have skied. I can't think of one area that doesn't have at least one mogul run. Bellearye usually has 2 intermediate runs , Hunter has one or two runs. Stowe has Goat and Star which are quite challenging. The list goes on and on. So the bumps haven't gone anywhere.

 

[rfarren]

I think the 80's were before rfarren's time. :lol: Certainly before much of his ski time.

I learned how to ski in the 80's. :wink: I'm a product of the eighties! :lol:

why would you post such a dubious post ? :roll:
aren't you a snowboarder?

Nope, not a snowboarder. Can't stand those guys. Lighten up, I put the emoticon " O " on there because I was saying that tongue in cheek.

As a frequent skier at Whiteface, where they often have a seeded mogul run, I can tell you that it doesn't get much use. Very few people ski it. I'm not sure it would be entirely economical even at a mountain like Killington, where moguls pop up naturally. I understand your passion for the bumps, although I prefer the trees or steeps. When I run into them I enjoy them plenty, but I don't actively seek them. For a gifted bumper like yourself I can certainly understand the frustration, yet, again I don't think it is economical to seed a run.

 

[Bluebird Day]

I the utility of them for sharpening ski technique.

I agree with this statement. However, the thing that brought my skiing to a new level of both confidence and ability was learning telemark 7 years ago. I know of a ski coach in JH who required all of his racers to learn and run gates on telemark to sharpen balance and edge control. I tried it and loved it immediately after 35 years of alpine. Now I do both, depending on conditions.
=D>

 

[Marc_C]

Bellearye usually has 2 intermediate runs , Hunter has one or two runs. Stowe has Goat and Star which are quite challenging. The list goes on and on. So the bumps haven't gone anywhere.

I don't think it's so much that the bumps have vanished, but that extremely few areas allow/maintain bumps on runs where they can be learned. In this respect I fully agree with Joegm - how can anyone learn correct bump technique when the only bump runs are on difficult terrain? That was my huge issue when I lived in the NE - bumps were relegated to black diamond steepness and/or natural cover and/or gladed trails, and they often had the shape of half a bowling ball with the consistency of a NJ traffic barrier. Thus, when I was unable to ski bumps of that steepness or technical difficulty, many of the NE areas had little to offer me for more challenging terrain, and extraordinarily few had bumps on terrain suitably pitched for learning. I gave Sugarloaf a lot of credit for keeping a section of bumps on a green circle run. Same with Sunday River for having some blue square bump runs and doing the half or 2/3 grooming on a black diamond.

 

[Geoff]

Third: There are plenty of nice natural bump runs at Killington. The Light, Patsy's, and Low Rider, for instance. Never groomed.

Fourth: Killington is screwing with things to try to get the people to come back. I personally don't think seeded bumps will have any impact.

uhh, yeah.....patsy's and low rider are glades.... of course they are not groomed... ever :roll: .....the light ??? are you serious ?.....let me know when KMS freestyle starts training on the light ok geoff ?.....geoff, you know a good amount but you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to moguls...

they ought to seed 3 lines on skiers left of chute all the way down to the bottom of snowdon quad.... good snowmaking.. good lift access.. good length....good pitch..... one quarter width of the trail !!!! go ahead Geoff, tell us all why that is just stupid and ridiculous

KMS trains on a seeded bump run. It is closed to the public because the hackers would destroy it in minutes.

Killington can't seed Chute. They need those intermediate acres for their mass market business. If they sacrificed that kind of terrain to make JoeGM happy, they'd go out of business. I personally would be happy with it but I'll bet Nyberg and Temple would call it stupid and rediculous.


Killington has been screwing with the mountain in an attempt to bring their customers back. I personally doubt that adding seeded bump runs will have any impact. Killington is already loaded with ungroomed terrain relative to their competition to the south. There is little point in catering to a market that already drives farther north to get the better skiing surface on the ungroomed terrain. I'm trying to imagine any MRG season pass holder suddenly deciding that they want to change to Killington.

 

[Marc_C]

I'm trying to imagine any MRG season pass holder suddenly deciding that they want to change to Killington.

Now Geoff, don't go and bring religion into the discussion. 8)