DUDE. Are you insane? That is a fucking bargain. What were prices at Belle, Windham, Hunter yesterday? Which place allowed you to ski the most? Have a beer in the best bar in NY?
JUST SAYIN
Harv's NY/VT Pictures Thread
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JUST SAYIN
jamesdeluxe
Administrator
I agree with all of the above but it's still a lot of money for what you get. Sorry to compare apples and bowling balls (you'll scream "false equivalency") but walkup prices at locals joints in France and Austria are $25-30. In Switzerland $35-40.
24.0 | Killington |
26.3 | Whiteface |
32.0 | Mount Snow |
32.1 | Mont Sainte Anne |
35.3 | Sunday River |
35.7 | Le Massif |
36.2 | Stratton |
37.3 | Tremblant |
42.7 | Loon Mountain |
46.4 | Okemo |
47.5 | Snowshoe |
55.4 | Waterville Valley |
Parts of Mt. High and Big Bear for sure, but yes those are very eastern in topography, ambience and VTF/acreage. Destination resort base areas late in the day can have intense skier traffic, especially if there's only one or two base areas with a lot of sprawl funneling in. Vail Village and Lionshead, Palisades' Mountain Run come to mind. Both of those ski areas have plenty of elbow room as you ascend and spread out. It helps that Mammoth has 4 large parking base areas, but those are still the most congested places in terms of skier density.
Since James brought the Alps into the discussion, it's only fair to show this from Plagne Bellecote last April:
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Of course I will.
Compare it to the east. Just because you can fly and free, doesn't overrule reality!
While you are at it check the Platty price, I just made it up.
I suspect Zermatt is still the only lift ticket in the Alps over $85.
Baldy and Mt. High are about $110. Big Bear over the holidays was $143.
No. I was paid for that 2015 research intended for a Ski Recommender website. This has not yet materialized but it hasn't been officially killed yet either. So I probably shouldn't be publishing complete datasets from it.
It was a very haphazard process. Lots of stale data, which in general I was willing to use because visitation overall is fairly flat. I have a general idea about which areas are growing visitation, Jackson Hole being Exhibit A. There are a few SWAGs in there too.
jasoncapecod
Well-known member
The fact that we need to have this discussion, is the primary reason I have basically stopped skiing after 45 yrs.
Over crowding and runaway costs.
As I have posted on other forums mountain biking fill the skiing void quite nicely.
Over crowding and runaway costs.
As I have posted on other forums mountain biking fill the skiing void quite nicely.
jamesdeluxe
Administrator
You were close. The Platte window rate is $88.While you are at it check the Platty price, I just made it up.
EMSC
Well-known member
Surprised to see Le Massif in the most crowded category. I would have thought it was much lower - at least for the east.
Season passes remain a relative bargain if you actually use them and the overcrowding IMO is avoidable by going to smaller or more remote destinations. Skier visits are not exactly skyrocketing and often not climbing much at all in total but are seeming to get more concentrated at certain resorts leaving other ski areas just as uncrowded or more so than ever.
Some cool pics in the Platty TR Harvey.
Not sure I agree with this.
Season passes remain a relative bargain if you actually use them and the overcrowding IMO is avoidable by going to smaller or more remote destinations. Skier visits are not exactly skyrocketing and often not climbing much at all in total but are seeming to get more concentrated at certain resorts leaving other ski areas just as uncrowded or more so than ever.
Some cool pics in the Platty TR Harvey.
US Skier visits almost tied the records from the banner 2008 and 2011 seasons in 2022 despite it not being that great a year. It's hard to believe the record won't be broken this season, though maybe not if the Northeast continues to suck.
The overall net increase per Kottke is coming entirely from the Rocky Mountain region. I agree with EMSC that the crowd crunch is at certain resorts. I also agree with ChrisC that it's more a locals than tourists issue.
We have benefited greatly from the Ikon and MCP + Mammoth MVP before that. But we're retired and not skiing weekends/holidays at resorts sensitive to that.
The overall net increase per Kottke is coming entirely from the Rocky Mountain region. I agree with EMSC that the crowd crunch is at certain resorts. I also agree with ChrisC that it's more a locals than tourists issue.
We have benefited greatly from the Ikon and MCP + Mammoth MVP before that. But we're retired and not skiing weekends/holidays at resorts sensitive to that.
jamesdeluxe
Administrator
jasoncapecod
Well-known member
I just want to go to the tkt window and buy a fair priced lift ticked.
I don’t want to finance their business with a mega pass or a season pass.
I don’t want to finance their business with a mega pass or a season pass.
Yes.
Tony do you have total US visit broken down by region?
What percentage of the total is East?
| Kottke Total | Kottke Northeast | Kottke Rockies | Kottke Pacific Southwest | Kottke Pacific Northwest | Kottke Linear Trend | Except Rockies | Season |
| 50.2 | 11.3 | 15.8 | 49.0 | 34.4 | 78-79 | ||
| 48.2 | 8.7 | 17.2 | 49.2 | 31.0 | 79-80 | ||
| 39.7 | 9.0 | 10.5 | 49.4 | 29.2 | 80-81 | ||
| 50.7 | 11.5 | 15.3 | 49.7 | 35.4 | 81-82 | ||
| 45.9 | 9.5 | 14.8 | 49.9 | 31.1 | 82-83 | ||
| 50.6 | 12.1 | 16.8 | 50.1 | 33.8 | 83-84 | ||
| 51.4 | 11.1 | 17.6 | 50.3 | 33.8 | 84-85 | ||
| 51.9 | 12.8 | 16.9 | 50.6 | 35.0 | 85-86 | ||
| 53.7 | 14.7 | 16.7 | 50.8 | 37.0 | 86-87 | ||
| 53.9 | 14.4 | 16.6 | 51.0 | 37.3 | 87-88 | ||
| 53.3 | 12.7 | 16.6 | 51.3 | 36.7 | 88-89 | ||
| 50.0 | 13.3 | 16.0 | 51.5 | 34.0 | 89-90 | ||
| 46.7 | 11.2 | 16.7 | 51.7 | 30.0 | 90-91 | ||
| 50.8 | 12.3 | 17.7 | 52.0 | 33.1 | 91-92 | ||
| 54.0 | 13.2 | 18.6 | 52.2 | 35.4 | 92-93 | ||
| 54.6 | 13.7 | 17.5 | 52.4 | 37.1 | 93-94 | ||
| 52.7 | 11.3 | 18.4 | 52.7 | 34.3 | 94-95 | ||
| 54.0 | 13.8 | 18.1 | 6.0 | 3.0 | 52.9 | 35.9 | 95-96 |
| 52.5 | 12.4 | 18.9 | 6.4 | 3.5 | 53.1 | 33.6 | 96-97 |
| 54.1 | 12.7 | 19.2 | 7.9 | 3.3 | 53.4 | 34.9 | 97-98 |
| 52.1 | 12.3 | 18.4 | 7.5 | 3.6 | 53.6 | 33.7 | 98-99 |
| 52.2 | 12.0 | 18.1 | 6.7 | 3.8 | 53.8 | 34.1 | 99-00 |
| 57.3 | 13.7 | 19.3 | 7.8 | 3.4 | 54.0 | 38.0 | 00-01 |
| 54.4 | 12.2 | 18.1 | 7.9 | 4.2 | 54.3 | 36.3 | 01-02 |
| 57.6 | 14.0 | 18.7 | 7.9 | 3.0 | 54.5 | 38.9 | 02-03 |
| 57.1 | 12.9 | 18.9 | 8.0 | 3.9 | 54.7 | 38.2 | 03-04 |
| 56.9 | 13.1 | 19.6 | 9.3 | 1.7 | 55.0 | 37.3 | 04-05 |
| 58.9 | 12.5 | 20.7 | 7.9 | 4.1 | 55.2 | 38.2 | 05-06 |
| 55.1 | 11.8 | 20.8 | 6.1 | 3.8 | 55.4 | 34.3 | 06-07 |
| 60.5 | 14.3 | 21.3 | 7.6 | 4.0 | 55.7 | 39.2 | 07-08 |
| 57.4 | 13.7 | 20.0 | 7.1 | 3.6 | 55.9 | 37.4 | 08-09 |
| 59.8 | 13.4 | 20.4 | 8.4 | 3.9 | 56.1 | 39.4 | 09-10 |
| 60.5 | 13.9 | 20.9 | 8.1 | 4.0 | 56.4 | 39.6 | 10-11 |
| 51.0 | 11.0 | 19.1 | 6.1 | 4.0 | 56.6 | 31.9 | 11-12 |
| 56.9 | 13.3 | 19.8 | 7.1 | 4.2 | 56.8 | 37.1 | 12-13 |
| 56.5 | 13.4 | 21.1 | 5.2 | 3.4 | 57.1 | 35.4 | 13-14 |
| 53.6 | 13.3 | 20.8 | 4.8 | 2.0 | 57.3 | 32.8 | 14-15 |
| 52.8 | 9.3 | 22.3 | 7.5 | 4.2 | 57.5 | 30.5 | 15-16 |
| 54.8 | 11.9 | 21.7 | 7.4 | 4.1 | 57.7 | 33.1 | 16-17 |
| 53.3 | 12.0 | 20.8 | 6.2 | 3.9 | 58.0 | 32.5 | 17-18 |
| 59.3 | 12.5 | 24.4 | 7.6 | 4.1 | 58.2 | 34.9 | 18-19 |
| 51.1 | 11.5 | 20.1 | 6.0 | 3.3 | 58.4 | 31.0 | 19-20 |
| 59.0 | 12.3 | 22.6 | 7.2 | 4.5 | 58.7 | 36.4 | 20-21 |
| 60.7 | 12.7 | 25.3 | 7.4 | 4.2 | 58.9 | 35.4 | 21-22 |
I omitted the columns from the Midwest and Southeast, but those are included in the Total and Except Rockies columns. This is the basis for my comment that all of the growth is coming from the Rockies. Northeast record seasons were in the mid-1980's though 2007-08 came close.
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The following is from the 2013-14 Kottke Demographic Report:
In the 1970's 44% of skier visits were in the Northeast (now it's under 25%). Unfortunately the link I found in Sept. 2021 is broken, but a Google search of a longer excerpt led to this. That 44% is obviously the early 1970's before skiing's big growth spurt the rest of that decade. That growth spurt was measured by Neilson's Sports Participation Surveys in 1973, 1976 and1979.
This info is not in the general report that I used to get every year. In continuing the trend of ski areas restricting public information, they will no longer send me complete reports. I can ask for specific information.
In the 1970's 44% of skier visits were in the Northeast (now it's under 25%). Unfortunately the link I found in Sept. 2021 is broken, but a Google search of a longer excerpt led to this. That 44% is obviously the early 1970's before skiing's big growth spurt the rest of that decade. That growth spurt was measured by Neilson's Sports Participation Surveys in 1973, 1976 and1979.
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jamesdeluxe
Administrator
And when the idea of destination ski trips via airplane began to sound a bit less preposterous. I suspect that it took airline deregulation and People Express's effect on fares for it to become much more prevalent.
Kottke table above shows Northeast market share in the low 20's% range even at the beginning in 1979. Record eastern year in 1986-87 was still only 27%. with some assistance from a very bad 75% snowfall season in the West.
The airline deregulation bill was in 1978. But I'm going to hazard a guess that the Northeast ski market share fell mostly during that explosive growth period in the 1970's. Many new western ski areas came online in the early 1970's.
The airline deregulation bill was in 1978. But I'm going to hazard a guess that the Northeast ski market share fell mostly during that explosive growth period in the 1970's. Many new western ski areas came online in the early 1970's.