Can Snowmaking Compensate for Climate Change?

[MarzNC]

Interesting snowmaking has advanced significantly at Massanutten and Timberline.

For Massanutten, it was just a matter of time before the big money would be spent to improve the snowmaking infrastructure significantly. I started skiing at Mnut as the indoor/outdoor waterpark was being built. A year or two after that, two of the original lifts were replaced. Assorted major projects continued for the next decade.

As for Timberline in WV, the former owners were idiots. I went once in 2015 and was never planning on going back. By 2021 I started adding a couple days at Timberline in January as part of my first stay at Massanutten. The current owner got it cheap in late 2019 for just over $2 millon. The folks who love Timberline terrain were very happy. Timberline has become a stellar family owned/operated ski area that draws from DC, all over VA, Pittsburgh, and even NC. During late season, people drive from Ohio.

Ever heard of Perfect North? It's in southern Indiana. It's named for the family who turned farmland into a very successful ski hill based on lots of snowmaking and common sense. They used all the experience gained from developing Perfect North over 40+ years to turn Timberline around completely in the last five years. They installed new lifts, renovated and expanded the base lodge, have good food for reasonable prices, completely redid the snowmaking infrastructure, and have a unique pricing approach based on making good use of RFID for lift access.

The video shows how Perfect North started a season of snowmaking 15 years ago.

November 2010

November 2022

How One Family Resurrected a Rundown WV Ski Resort Back to its Glory

Putting in more than $15 million in capital improvements, the Perfect Family was able to completely transform Timberline Mountain.

northernvirginiamag.com

Posted July 2023

Podcast #136: Timberline, West Virginia General Manager Tom Price

“Snowmaking, snowmaking, snowmaking”

www.stormskiing.com

 

[ChrisC]

Overall I think trail mileage is poor metric of ski area scale as it conspicuously favors flatter resorts. But it's absolutely the right metric for scale of snowmaking coverage. How did you translate North American acreage into trail mileage?

I didn't. This was a quick ChatGPT chart that converted ski acreage to trail mileage. Seemed like a decent method.

---

​

Step 1 – Based on official skiable acreage + number of trails​

• Vail: 5,317 acres, ~195 trails.
• Park City / Canyons: 7,300 acres, ~330+ trails.
• Mammoth Mountain: 3,500 acres, ~150 trails.
• Sun Valley: 2,154 acres, ~100 trails.
• Keystone: 3,148 acres, ~135 trails.

---

​

Step 2 – Convert acreage into approximate trail length​

There’s no perfect conversion, but ski industry planners use heuristics:​

• In the U.S. East, trail networks are denser and narrower → 1 acre ≈ 0.2–0.25 km of trail.
• In the West, runs are much wider, with bowls and glades inflating acreage without adding “linear km” → 1 acre ≈ 0.03–0.05 km of trail is more realistic.

So I didn’t use acreage alone. Instead, I used trails × average run length.​

​

Step 3 – Trails × Average Run Length (primary method)​

I estimated average run length from vertical drop and terrain layout:​

​

• Vail: 195 trails, avg ~1.2 km = ~234 km total (this matches their published “234 km” stat in ski travel guides).
• Park City / Canyons: 330+ trails, avg ~1 km = ~330+ km.
• Mammoth: 150 trails, avg ~1 km = ~150 km.
• Sun Valley: 100 trails, avg ~1 km = ~100 km.
• Keystone: 135 trails, avg ~1 km = ~135 km.

This method lines up with what European tour operators (like Crystal, Inghams, Ski Solutions) often publish in their brochures when marketing to a European audience — they convert acres + trail counts into “km of runs” to match European norms.​

​

Step 4 – Sanity check with known published equivalents​

​

Some Western U.S. resorts do have km published in European sources or the International Report on Snow & Mountain Tourism (Laurent Vanat). For example:​

• Vail ≈ 234 km
• Park City ≈ 330 km
• Sun Valley ≈ 100 km
• Mammoth ≈ 150 km
  These matched my estimates, so I locked them in.

---

​

In short:
For Western U.S. mountains, I didn’t take acreage literally. Instead I derived total trail km from:​

1. Number of trails × avg run length (based on vertical + geography),
2. Cross-checked with European operator brochures and Vanat’s industry report,
3. Sanity checked with acres / trail width assumptions.

 

[ChrisC]

Ever heard of Perfect North? It's in southern Indiana. It's named for the family who turned farmland into a very successful ski hill based on lots of snowmaking and common sense. They used all the experience gained from developing Perfect North over 40+ years to turn Timberline around completely in the last five years. They installed new lifts, renovated and expanded the base lodge, have good food for reasonable prices, completely redid the snowmaking infrastructure, and have a unique pricing approach based on making good use of RFID for lift access.

I have seen/heard many skiers compare Vail Resorts' operations to Perfect North and ask why they are not equivalent.

You should listen to the Stuart/The Storm's recent interview with Vail CEO Katz from 8/2026. He really needles Katz about how advanced Timbeline and Perfect North operations and snowmaking are compared to Vail's Mid-Atlantic resorts. Katz tried to blame microclimates and weather.

Podcast #211: Vail Resorts Chairperson & CEO Rob Katz

Vail Resorts' transformative CEO is back

www.stormskiing.com

 

[Skieric]

I have seen/heard many skiers compare Vail Resorts' operations to Perfect North and ask why they are not equivalent.

You should listen to the Stuart/The Storm's recent interview with Vail CEO Katz from 8/2026. He really needles Katz about how advanced Timbeline and Perfect North operations and snowmaking are compared to Vail's Mid-Atlantic resorts. Katz tried to blame microclimates and weather.

Podcast #211: Vail Resorts Chairperson & CEO Rob Katz

Vail Resorts' transformative CEO is back

www.stormskiing.com

I went to medical school in Cincinnati and therefore for 4 years Perfect North was my home mtn as it was less than 30 minutes away. Somehow they always had snow from mid December to first week of March. In mid winter when they had snowmaking windows they made a lot of snow and the base was often 5+ feet. Still the only place I have skied in shorts and a tee shirt with a temp of 70.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Katz tried to blame microclimates and weather.

There is something to local knowledge. Snow Summit achieved its snowmaking dominance by spending the profits from the banner 1978-79 ski season to build a pipe into Big Bear Lake and install 100% snowmaking coverage on trials. Ski Ltd., owner of Killington, bought next door Goldmine in 1988, renamed it Bear Mt. and built its own pipe into Big Bear Lake. The mountain was sold again in 1995 to Fibreboard Corp. and 1996 to Booth Creek, Inc. Under none of these owners did the quality of manmade snow at Bear Mt. compare to Snow Summit. Finally Snow Summit bought Bear in 2001 and the next season the snowmaking was comparable. It still boggles my mind that the people who make snow at Killington couldn't figure out how to do it properly in Big Bear. So I think these local people in Indiana deeply understand their own microclimate.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

This was a quick ChatGPT chart that converted ski acreage to trail mileage. Seemed like a decent method.
Step 1 – Based on official skiable acreage + number of trails

• Vail: 5,317 acres, ~195 trails.
• Park City / Canyons: 7,300 acres, ~330+ trails.
• Mammoth Mountain: 3,500 acres, ~150 trails.
• Sun Valley: 2,154 acres, ~100 trails.
• Keystone: 3,148 acres, ~135 trails.

Be careful with ChatGPT charts -- they're usually generated by negative user prompts.

 

[MarzNC]

You should listen to the Stuart/The Storm's recent interview with Vail CEO Katz from 8/2026. He really needles Katz about how advanced Timbeline and Perfect North operations and snowmaking are compared to Vail's Mid-Atlantic resorts. Katz tried to blame microclimates and weather.

Podcast #211: Vail Resorts Chairperson & CEO Rob Katz

Vail Resorts' transformative CEO is back

www.stormskiing.com

Listened to it during the summer.

Folks in the DC/NoVA area wish the Perfect family would take over Blue Knob. Like Timberline, it has cool terrain for the region but needs much more snowmaking and lift upgrades. The complication is that it's in a PA state park. There used to be an annual EpicSki/DCSki regional gathering that alternated between Timberline and BK. I went to BK a couple times for that. Haven't been back since.

 

[MarzNC]

There is something to local knowledge.

That's a key factor for all the southeast ski hills that survived into the 21st century. They all only exist because of 100% snowmaking coverage that began over 60 years ago. Once snowmaking equipment was commercially available starting in the 1950s, folks in the southern Appalachians were interested in the idea of lift-served skiing. The list of lost ski areas in the region that never put in snowmaking is longer than you might think.

The Perfect family have demonstrated what regional skiers knew all along. Having good terrain isn't enough in WV. Timberline needed knowledgeable and sensible management that had the financial resources for snowmaking infrastructure.

Cataloochee and Appalachian in NC and Bryce in VA are three of the smallest hills in the region, 50 acres or less. They open early and stay open as long as possible into late March. But it's also important that the owners continually invest in snowmaking upgrades.

From a business standpoint, it also makes a difference that there is night skiing. As there is at Perfect North and other ski hills in the midwest.

Bryce and Massanutten are about an hour apart by highway. Bryce is a bit farther north and west. The upper mountain of Massanutten is subject to temperature conversions on a regular basis. Being in VA, the difference of a few degrees between the summit and valley can mean no snowmaking. It's confusing for folks who don't know what Wet Bulb is. Where Bryce is located is a cold sink. There are times when Bryce can make snow all night while Mnut can't get started until past midnight. The long time GM for Mnut who recently retired was well aware of the difference between the two microclimates. He started working at Mnut when he was in college at JMU, 20 minutes away in Harrisonburg. Became part of the senior management team for snowsports in 1986.

 

[ChrisC]

Folks in the DC/NoVA area wish the Perfect family would take over Blue Knob. Like Timberline, it has cool terrain for the region but needs much more snowmaking and lift upgrades. The complication is that it's in a PA state park. There used to be an annual EpicSki/DCSki regional gathering that alternated between Timberline and BK. I went to BK a couple times for that. Haven't been back since.

Isn't Laurel Mountain located in a PA State Park, and was it able to modernize its infrastructure within its traditional footprint? I am unsure of the success of this rehab, since I have come across some derogatory comments.

Even New York State-owned ski areas were able to expand recently, despite their status as State Parks and/or Preserves.

• Whiteface → Adirondack Forest Preserve (not a state park, but constitutionally protected land).
• Gore → Adirondack Forest Preserve (same as Whiteface).
• Belleayre → Inside Catskill Park (a designated state park/Forest Preserve).

Aside: I believe these Parks/Preserves prevented the development of a lot of potential ski areas with 200" summit snowfalls in the Catskills and significant vertical drop ski areas in the Adirondacks. Effectively, New York State let its skier base develop the ski industry of Vermont.

Laurel Mountain Ski Resort: Recent Revival & Modern Era​

• After being closed for about 11 years, the ski area was reopened on December 21, 2016 following renovations, lodge reconstruction, upgraded snowmaking, and installation of a new quad chairlift. laurelmountainski.com+4laurelmountainski.com+4dcski.com+4
• The revival was aided by cooperation between private operators (Seven Springs) and the Pennsylvania Department of Conservation & Natural Resources (PA DCNR). Pennsylvania.gov+3laurelmountainski.com+3dcski.com+3
• In more recent years, Laurel Mountain has become part of a collection of Pennsylvania resorts operated by Vail Resorts, which also includes Seven Springs and Hidden Valley.

Not much has changed since 1977 till today.

 

[MarzNC]

Isn't Laurel Mountain located in a PA State Park, and was it able to modernize its infrastructure within its traditional footprint? I am unsure of the success of this rehab, since I have come across some derogatory comments.

Even New York State-owned ski areas were able to expand recently, despite their status as State Parks and/or Preserves.

• Whiteface → Adirondack Forest Preserve (not a state park, but constitutionally protected land).
• Gore → Adirondack Forest Preserve (same as Whiteface).
• Belleayre → Inside Catskill Park (a designated state park/Forest Preserve).

Aside: I believe these Parks/Preserves prevented the development of a lot of potential ski areas with 200" summit snowfalls in the Catskills and significant vertical drop ski areas in the Adirondacks. Effectively, New York State let its skier base develop the ski industry of Vermont.

Apples and oranges. The history of skiing in PA state parks versus in the NY Adirondacks and Catskills have very little in common when it comes to management and financial resources. PA has another state park that used to have skiing because it averaged 100 inches of snow. Seems unlikely to ever re-open for downhill skiing.

Western PA had a private owner for two resorts, Seven Springs and Hidden Valley, when Laurel was re-opened. Seven Springs was bought in 2008 from the family that developed it starting in the 1930s. There was much discussion on DCSki when Laurel was brought back to life. Don't remember details but there was a core support group that helped make it happen. Vail Resorts bought all three in 2021. I have never skied those three places so don't have a first-hand impression of the snowmaking infrastructure.

VR also bought the three former Snowtime resorts, which were well managed by a long time owner who initially sold to Peak Resorts and not directly to VR. Snowmaking at those resorts doesn't seem to be up to the old standard under Snowtime. Similar complaints to Hunter.

Fair to say that VR hasn't prioritized capital investments at their seven ski areas/resorts in PA since becoming the owner.

Canaan Valley is owned and operated by West Virginia State Parks. While WV State Parks are generally well run when it comes to camping, lodging, fishing, and so on, CV has not been well funded for snowmaking. What was expanded in recent years was the snow tubing hill. By 2022-23, the contrast between Timberline snowmaking and CV was huge. They are just a few miles apart. CV has good tree skiing after a big snowstorm, more than Timberline. CV is on the Indy Pass, while Timberline is completely independent.

 

[Skieric]

Apples and oranges. The history of skiing in PA state parks versus in the NY Adirondacks and Catskills have very little in common when it comes to management and financial resources. PA has another state park that used to have skiing because it averaged 100 inches of snow. Seems unlikely to ever re-open for downhill skiing.

Western PA had a private owner for two resorts, Seven Springs and Hidden Valley, when Laurel was re-opened. Seven Springs was bought in 2008 from the family that developed it starting in the 1930s. There was much discussion on DCSki when Laurel was brought back to life. Don't remember details but there was a core support group that helped make it happen. Vail Resorts bought all three in 2021. I have never skied those three places so don't have a first-hand impression of the snowmaking infrastructure.

VR also bought the three former Snowtime resorts, which were well managed by a long time owner who initially sold to Peak Resorts and not directly to VR. Snowmaking at those resorts doesn't seem to be up to the old standard under Snowtime. Similar complaints to Hunter.

Fair to say that VR hasn't prioritized capital investments at their seven ski areas/resorts in PA since becoming the owner.

Canaan Valley is owned and operated by West Virginia State Parks. While WV State Parks are generally well run when it comes to camping, lodging, fishing, and so on, CV has not been well funded for snowmaking. What was expanded in recent years was the snow tubing hill. By 2022-23, the contrast between Timberline snowmaking and CV was huge. They are just a few miles apart. CV has good tree skiing after a big snowstorm, more than Timberline. CV is on the Indy Pass, while Timberline is completely independent.

Seven Springs historically always had amazing snowmaking. I think it had been more of a snowmaking company with a ski area. The longtime owner was Herman K Dupre (HKD). He was known for his interest and innovation in snowmaking. This was where HKD used to develop and test their snowguns before it was spun off.
See: https://skihall.com/hall-of-famers/...-QGcfJijGWWQbwnC8KrV2azp0er-Yg2SeBqhUkVhcvyJW

 

[EMSC]

This was where HKD used to develop and test their snowguns before it was spun off.

Did not know this about HKD. I went to school and ski raced in the Mid-Atlantic for 4 years with Seven Springs being a regular on the circuit.

At the time I felt that Seven Springs and Wisp Maryland had the 2 most impressive snowmaking systems I had ever seen (even betterthan Hunter). Could show up Friday late afternoon with bare ground on most trails and with an overnight cold front they would have put 12-18" of man-made snow on the race trail by Sat morning... It was impressive and I assume even more so now. They have short windows of true cold to get the slopes opened up.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Did not know this about HKD.

Likewise. I assumed that company was from Switzerland or Austria.

 

[Skieric]

Likewise. I assumed that company was from Switzerland or Austria.

HKD while now spun off from the Dupre family is North American based. They have a plant/office east of Quebec City and another in Massachusetts.

 

[MarzNC]

SMI is the other big company that sells and installs snowmaking equipment in the USA. The original patents were not created by the founder of SMI. They were created by Everett Kircher, the founder of Boyne Resorts. Kircher decided his was more interested in developing resorts than sticking with snowmaking equipment only. SMI is still based in Michigan. Ships all over the world.

Apparently Perfect North works exclusively with SMI.

From Ski Hall of Fame in 2007 about Everett Kircher:
". . .
His ingenuity spread to snowmaking, with his patented Boyne and Highlander fan guns. They were the most energy efficient and marginal temperature snowmakers in the world and, while under his patent, were used at the Olympic Games in Sarajevo and Calgary. Grooming advances were also at the heart of his dream to create perfect snow conditions. Kircher developed the first snow tiller grooming technology in the 1960’s. SKI magazine noted in 1967 that the slopes at Boyne Mountain were “manicured like the gardens at Versailles.”
. . ."

Boyne Resorts timeline:

 

[ChrisC]

Bryce and Massanutten are about an hour apart by highway. Bryce is a bit farther north and west. The upper mountain of Massanutten is subject to temperature conversions on a regular basis. Being in VA, the difference of a few degrees between the summit and valley can mean no snowmaking. It's confusing for folks who don't know what Wet Bulb is. Where Bryce is located is a cold sink. There are times when Bryce can make snow all night while Mnut can't get started until past midnight. The long time GM for Mnut who recently retired was well aware of the difference between the two microclimates. He started working at Mnut when he was in college at JMU, 20 minutes away in Harrisonburg. Became part of the senior management team for snowsports in 1986.

Could this mountain - Cherokee - ever be resurrected? Or was Linden/Front Royale, VA, just too warm, and previous developers never did their homework on climatology?

Certainly convenient.

Ski Cherokee

www.dcski.com

 

[ChrisC]

So Panorama developed initially in the 1960s with local ownership. Then Intrawest built out the base. Back to local ownership in 2010.

Reminds me of the evolution of Snowshoe and Silver Creek. Intrawest made a difference for a decade but the ski areas started as two private businesses. Difference is that Intrawest had kept Snowshoe so Alterra became the owner.

I came across this Snowshoe Master Plan.

Never sure why the Hawthorne slopes/pod never returned. And a ski/lift link makes sense versus a bus - even just a lateral HS Lift of some type.

Given that Snowshoe is the largest resort accessible to a significant population in the Midwest/Mid-Atlantic within a car ride, I'm never sure why it did not become larger.

 

[MarzNC]

Given that Snowshoe is the largest resort accessible to a significant population in the Midwest/Mid-Atlantic within a car ride, I'm never sure why it did not become larger.

While people drive to Snowshoe from Pittsburgh, DC, northern VA, and NC, it's not an easy drive. Especially if it's snowing. From my house near Raleigh, it's essentially 7 hours on the road. The last couple hours on 2-lane WV highway that is likely to be snow covered during and after a snowstorm. I took my daughter twice for the SkiSoutheast Summit. After that, wasn't much reason to make the drive.

Twenty years ago, the drive from DC to Snowshoe was 6-7 hours. A bit less now because the so-call H Corridor US highways was upgraded to 4-lane after years of construction most of the way between the VA/WV border and Davis, where Timberline, Canaan Valley, and White Grass are located. Not day trip distance. People willing to spend the money on lodging at Snowshoe also are willing to pay for plane tickets out west or drive north for ski trips. There are very few alternatives for lodging besides resort lodging.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Given that Snowshoe is the largest resort accessible to a significant population in the Midwest/Mid-Atlantic within a car ride, I'm never sure why it did not become larger.

I suspected that the roads were difficult. And even though Snowshoe may be bigger than other MASH and SE resorts, on an absolute scale I think it's still what James would call Tier 3 Northeast. Thus given effort and lodging cost, it does not surprise me that many skiers prefer

to pay for plane tickets out west or drive north for ski trips.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

I came across this Snowshoe Master Plan.

I can't make heads or tails of which sectors in the master plan above aren't currently in operation in the map below other than Hawthorne.

A search says:

• Vertical drop: 1,500 feet.
• Location of vertical drop: The vertical drop is located at the Western Territory, which contains the most advanced and steepest terrain at Snowshoe.
• Elevation: The top elevation is 4,848 feet, with a base elevation of 3,348 feet.

Assuming it's legit, 1,500 verts are nothing to sneeze at, especially for that part of the country; however, someone should tell them that the "Beast of the East" moniker has already been claimed.