Eastern Molehills and Retro Areas

Am I being snooty by questioning areas of 100 vertical?
No, I agree to a certain extent (disclaimer: Harv doesn't care what we think); however, I suppose that if we define ski areas as hills that have a working lift no matter how small the vertical, they should be part of his project and he should ski them. I won't even bring up Patrick's use of indoor ski areas for his streak! :icon-lol:

You see the clip above of me at East Hill in Camillus -- that's 125 verts according to the 1977 edition of the White Book of Ski Areas provided by New York State ski historian Russ LaChapelle (fascinating guy, I interviewed him 15 years ago).
 
I won't even bring up Patrick's use of indoor ski areas for his streak!
That's why I mentioned these areas that Harvey will travel for are smaller than Big Snow and much smaller than SNO Oslo.

I found the defunct Intermont ski area Russ LaChapelle mentioned. Bearpen was already in the kml file, I'm sure courtesy of James.

The Bearpen story is interesting. It has some parallels to San Gorgonio here in SoCal.
 
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Snow is preserved in so many different ways:
  • Tarps (natural and machine-made) especially for early alpine racing, Kitzbuhel’s opening, Copper’s pipe/park, etc
  • Indoor
  • Glaciers
I would say let the indoor ski areas count. It's a slippery slope when a lot of East Coast skiing is simply machine-made with flakes that do not resemble anything found in nature. Snowmaking uses forced cold air, somewhat similar to chilled/refrigerated indoor slopes.
 
That's why I mentioned these areas that Harvey will travel for are smaller than Big Snow and much smaller than SNO Oslo.
As I understand it, the width and vertical of the ski areas aren't relevant to Harvey's quest. He wants to experience everything in NYS from decent-sized to tiny. I like this quote from Russ (I forgot how interesting that interview was):

In [the old] days, hotels and motels used to put a rope tow behind the main building as an attraction: an amenity for the people who stayed there. That’s why the term “ski area” or “ski center” is often a bit of a misnomer. Many of them weren’t there only to provide skiing. That concept came along later. I prefer to call most of them “places to ski.” When does a “place to ski” become a “ski area?” For example, Drumlins isn’t the same thing as Hunter Mountain. You have to consider each place’s historical context.
My beef about Big Snow and SNO Oslo for the ski streak is a personal opinion. Patrick and Harv can make up their own rules for whatever they want to accomplish without having to worry about what other people think.
 
I would say let the indoor ski areas count. It's a slippery slope when a lot of East Coast skiing is simply machine-made with flakes that do not resemble anything found in nature. Snowmaking uses forced cold air, somewhat similar to chilled/refrigerated indoor slopes.
I wasn't thinking of it strictly this way, but I've always noticed that fresh manmade without much traffic can occasionally be equivalent to packed natural snow. Manmade snow becomes rapidly more unpleasant than natural with high traffic and/or melt/freeze cycles.

It was a year ago perhaps when James started :brick: at the indoor ski areas. At the time I had just skied Afriski, which had the same percentage of manmade snow as indoor ski areas do. :icon-lol: But even in its incomplete state Afriski had 500 vertical. So I was perhaps questioning the indoor ski areas more for their size vs. that they are indoors. This thread has reminded us that some outdoor ski areas are at least as marginal as the indoor ones.

As far as monthly ski streaks are concerned, nearly everyone counts very small verticals on backcountry ski patches, like Tuckerman in July. Of course it takes way more effort to do that than to drive to a mall in New Jersey, which probably informs the ski purists' view.
 
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As I understand it, the width and vertical of the ski areas aren't relevant to Harvey's quest. He wants to experience everything in NYS from decent-sized to tiny.

There was one small ski hill at Grossinger’s Resort in Liberty NY that passed going to Binghamton NY. Barely ever opened. Now closed.

I saw Harvey wanted to spend a full day at each NY ski area.

You might really be able to knock a ton of them out doing AM, PM and night. 😂🤣👍😀

Also, some of these NY ski areas do not have 100% snowmaking and some natural snow runs are closed most of the season.

For example, Thunder Ridge/Big Birch mostly has snowmaking just on its lower racing slopes.

Grossinger’s Ski Valley below:

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Grossinger's was a famous Borscht Belt resort in the Catskill Mountains of New York that offered skiing, among other amenities. Though the resort provided ski groomed slopes for its guests, the resort is now abandoned and its buildings were demolished in 2018, with the property having been closed since 1986.
 
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It was a year ago perhaps when James started :brick: at the indoor ski areas.
It was three years ago when Tony started
:brick:
at the indoor ski areas:
  • August 2022: "In pursuit of a 12 month ski season, Liz and I have lowered ourselves to Patrick's level."
  • August 2022: "I would agree that if one made a habit of going to a local indoor joint for the hard case months, that would eventually make the ski streak meaningless."
  • October 2023: "I said that repeated use of indoors to score the summer months would degrade the value of a streak."
  • November 2023: "I'll just say that repeated use of indoor skiing for a streak is a slippery slope."
 
It was three years ago when Tony started
:brick:
at the indoor ski areas:
Touché! But James is the one who said he would not count indoor skiing at all. My view was and is "Don't make a habit of it." I'll also say that running up one's ski area count with <100 vertical ropetow molehills falls in the same category.

Coincident with this topic is today's e-mail from Stuart. He discusses two of those molehills on Harvey's "Storm List," Emery Park and Chestnut Ridge. My apologies if the details are not available to non-subscribers.
 
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But James is the one who said he would definitely not count indoor skiing at all.
Streak or no streak, I have no desire to go indoor skiing even though I have a facility 25 minutes away, nor would I schlep to a place like Afriski, a six-hour drive from Johannesburg or Durban, just to say that I skied in South Africa/Lesotho. I'm not telling anyone else that they're wrong for doing it, I'm just saying that it's not for me.
 
nor would I schlep to a place like Afriski, a six-hour drive from Johannesburg or Durban, just to say that I skied in South Africa/Lesotho.
I might not have done it either if I hadn't already skied the other 6 continents. This is a rabbit hole James will avoid since he has his own standards of skiing. I'll be surprised if he ever skis in the Southern Hemisphere. I suspect Japan is the only ski destination outside Europe or North America that would interest him.
 
That's the way Stuart does it! He checked off 3 molehills in metro Boston and Rhode Island in one day last season.

It might be more impressive to visit all the CLOSED New York ski areas at this point. I am sure there are more ski areas permanently shut down than open in New York.

Here is one in Binghamton, New York: Innsbruck USA. It never installed snowmaking and eventually had to close. I never skied here when it was open, but my parents did.

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Here is one in Binghamton, New York: Innsbruck USA.
Thanks, I remember reading that entry in the 00s. I've been to all the Austrian place names on the trail map: Klagenfurt, Dornbirn, Bregenz, Salzburg, Lustenau, Klagenfurt.
:bow:

The authenticity of Upstate NY: the 70s logo, old-school map, and 607 area code!
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Thanks, I remember reading that entry in the 00s. I've been to all the Austrian place names on the trail map: Klagenfurt, Dornbirn, Bregenz, Salzburg, Lustenau, Klagenfurt.

I somewhat admire how some Upstate New York ski areas went all in on their Names and themes:
  • Greek Peak (I have no idea why there are so many New York city/town Ancient names, such as Syracuse, Ithaca, Virgil, Marathon, Rome, Troy, etc.).
  • Innsbruck USA
  • Windham. All of its trails begin with 'W'
  • Hunter. Everything New York City.

How about this promotion with the "start dieting now" messaging -- imagine the response that would get these days.

Today, for a 175 lbs individual, the promo would not be 'pay $0.01 per pound,' but more like 'pay $1.00 per pound.' Not $1.75 per ski day, but $175 per day under the Vail and Alterra duopoly.

$1.75 in 1965 is equivalent in purchasing power to about $18.00 today, an increase of $16.25 over 60 years. The dollar has had an average inflation rate of 3.96% per year between 1965 and today, resulting in a cumulative price increase of 928.50%.

Basically telling Broome County residents to lay off their spiedies:

The fact that everyone in Binghamton is so obsessed with them has always baffled me. A spiedie is just a sandwich, and a very ordinary sounding one at that: marinated lamb, chicken, or pork on a skewer, cooked on a grill, served on an Italian roll.

He does not mention Venison/deer spiedie. That was one of the 'better' outcomes of giant Bucks remnants being stored in freezers.

Spiedies are put on Pizza - especially at a local chain called Pudgie's Pizza

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I will still grill meat using a Spiedie Marinade, but I tell no one about its origin - or what I am doing.

Spiedie marinade is a tangy, herb-infused marinade from New York's Southern Tier region, typically made with a vinegar and oil base. It works on cubed meat like chicken, pork, or lamb, tenderizing it for grilling. For optimal results, the meat should marinate for at least 24 hours, but ideally for 2 to 3 days.
Classic spiedie marinade recipe
This recipe combines a variety of dried and fresh herbs for a balanced flavor profile.
Ingredients
  • 1 cup olive oil
  • ¾ cup red wine vinegar
  • ¼ cup fresh lemon juice
  • 4 cloves garlic, minced
  • 1 tbsp dried oregano
  • 1 tbsp dried basil
  • 1 tbsp fresh mint, finely chopped (optional)
  • 1 bay leaf
  • 1 tsp salt
  • 1 tsp black pepper
  • 1 tsp red pepper flakes (optional, for heat)
  • 1 tsp sugar (optional, to balance the acidity)
Instructions
  1. Combine ingredients: In a large bowl or resealable plastic bag, whisk together the olive oil, red wine vinegar, and lemon juice.
  2. Add herbs and spices: Add the minced garlic, oregano, basil, mint (if using), bay leaf, salt, pepper, red pepper flakes, and sugar (if using). Whisk until well combined.
  3. Marinate the meat: Add 2 to 3 pounds of cubed meat (chicken, lamb, or pork) to the mixture. Make sure all the pieces are well coated. Seal the bag or cover the bowl and refrigerate.
  4. Wait patiently: Let the meat marinate for at least 24 hours. For maximum tenderness and flavor, let it marinate for two to three days, flipping the bag occasionally.
  5. Grill and serve: Thread the marinated meat onto skewers, discarding the remaining marinade. Grill until cooked through and slightly charred. Serve on Italian bread or hoagie rolls
 
The authenticity of Upstate NY: the 70s logo, old-school map, and 607 area code!

Innsbruck, USA, should have been viable ski area for Binghamton, NY, since it is only 10-15 minutes away from a nearly 100,000+ metro area. Greek Peak and Elk Mountain are both approximately 45 minutes away. It should have been able to provide a place for race teams, night skiing, half-day and 4-hour tickets, and a learn-to-ski program.

A friend lived near it, and we sledded and skied its closed slopes.


There were all types of makeshift ski areas in New York State. My mom even took group lessons from a ski instructor who had a rope tow in his backyard on the small hills outside Binghamton.
 
There is some funny stuff in this thread. Plenty of good stuff too.

I'm not trying to impress, or rack up my ski area count.

I'm trying to learn more about NY state skiing.
 
What this thread proves to me is that skiing was not in any way an elitist sport if you were growing up in upstate NY in the latter half of the 20th century. Every medium sized town had one of these convenient and dirt cheap local molehills where kids could learn to ski on weekends and even after school. And unlike some of us in warmer regions, nobody in that region had to buy any new clothing to ski.
 
I will still grill meat using a Spiedie Marinade, but I tell no one about its origin - or what I am doing.
Why not? Fly your NYS Southern Tier freak flag proudly! Venison spiedies? Hopefully the marinade would cover up the gamey taste a bit. I remember the spiedie pizza at Pudgie's in Cortland but never tried it.

What this thread proves to me is that skiing was not in any way an elitist sport if you were growing up in upstate NY in the latter half of the 20th century. Every medium sized town had one of these convenient and dirt cheap local molehills where kids could learn to ski on weekends and even after school.
Which is exactly Russ LaChapelle's point above. As you can see from the monstrous NELSAP list, it was that way across the northeast and Quebec; however, NYS really took it to another level with well more than 300 "places to ski" statewide at one point. Russ also covered why that golden era began its quick decline in the 70s.

I've mentioned before how during our long winters back then, you were either a skier or a hockey player, and the decision was partially on fiscal grounds (hockey was viewed to be more affordable). We had the dirt cheap molehills and then the CNY ski areas, which were all within the means of anyone; however, once you graduated to the "big names" in the ADKs, Catskills, and then Vermont, you were definitely perceived as an entitled Richie Rich type. I remember when one of my classmates went with his well-off family to ski five areas in the Laurentians, he gave a presentation to the class upon his return. The part about Tremblant really impressed us. Luckily, that winter my father began our annual tradition of going up to Montreal for a Canadiens hockey game (which was viewed as equally exotic), so at least I could brag about that!
 
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