Europe 23/24

[Sbooker]

I couldn’t see another thread for the coming season so I took the liberty of starting this one.
I had planned on catching a train from Milan to St Anton in early February.

Gotthard rail tunnel, world’s longest, closes for months after Swiss derailment | Train crashes | The Guardian

Sixteen freight carriages run off rails, tearing up eight kilometres of train track and leaving engineering marvel inaugurated in 2016 unable to take passengers

amp.theguardian.com

May have to go the long way now apparently.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Zurich is the best gateway to St. Anton, two hours by train I think.

A Euro 23/24 thread has not been started because it seems the best air deals can be had in September/October. James has been doing this for a long time, and in recent years ChrisC and I have noticed this same pattern.

The Swiss Transportation Museum in Lucerne (recommend highly) has an exhibit on the original Gotthard Tunnel built in the late 19th century. The auto tunnel is about 12 miles and I drive through it a few times on my 2013 Alps trip.

 

[Sbooker]

Zurich is the best gateway to St. Anton, two hours by train I think.

Definitely. But we’re going to do the first part (about 11 days) of the trip with a car out of Milan where we will fly into from Oz. We’d like to check out the mountains around Briancon and then have another look at the Aosta area.

The plan is to then train it to Arlberg area for 4 days then head to Zell am See as a base for the busy week. Seems it’s easy to check out a few hills from that area and also be able to have a day trip to Salzburg to check out the Mozart/Sound of Music stuff.
We’ll depart Europe from Munich on the 19th of Feb.

A Euro 23/24 thread has not been started because it seems the best air deals can be had in September/October. James has been doing this for a long time, and in recent years ChrisC and I have noticed this same pattern.

Sorry to steal your thunder @jamesdeluxe
Flights from the southern hemisphere are cheapest early. I’ll make a point of seeing how much more expensive they are in October but at this point they are about $700Aud per person more expensive than when we bought the fares in late March.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I'm not sure why you wouldn't keep the car if you are going to the Arlberg, Zell am See and Salzburg.

Zell am See

and Saalbach is Jimmy Petterson's home region. What week would you expect to be there?

Since your trip is a long one, you have flexibility. You should keep the car the whole time, not commit to lodging far in advance and prepare to adjust your itinerary based on snow conditions, as both ChrisC and I had to do last year.

Briancon is climatically southern Alps, favored last year by avoiding the Christmas deluge of rain, but there are years when it's sparse. Zell am See/Saalbach are very low altitude. I would not lock in either of those regions far in advance.

 

[Sbooker]

I'm not sure why you wouldn't keep the car if you are going to the Arlberg, Zell am See and Salzburg.

and Saalbach is Jimmy Petterson's home region. What week would you expect to be there?

Since your trip is a long one, you have flexibility. You should keep the car the whole time, not commit to lodging far in advance and prepare to adjust your itinerary based on snow conditions, as both ChrisC and I had to do last year.

Briancon is climatically southern Alps, favored last year by avoiding the Christmas deluge of rain, but there are years when it's sparse. Zell am See/Saalbach are very low altitude. I would not lock in either of those regions far in advance.

We’ve booked lodging in Briancon but can cancel up to 5 days prior. We’ll go somewhere else if conditions dictate. We’ve not been to the northern Alps - aside from a brief stint in Chamonix for me last year - or Three Valleys yet…..
On the car. Fair point. But my travel partner does love a train ride. I guess we could hire from Salzburg or Innsbruck once we’ve left Arlberg region.
Fasching week (not ideal) (Sunday 11th to Saturday 17th) will be extremely hard to find accommodation at short notice I’m told and I’m sure we’ll find something to ski on around Zell am See (a glacier up the street). It’s a good base for the day trip to Salzburg. And if Saalbach and Kitz etc don’t have something to ski on in the second/third week in February things will be dire indeed. If that’s the case we’d ditch the accommodation and go check out Prague and Budapest.

 

[Tony Crocker]

I presume you have to return to Milan at the end of the trip. This probably means you would need to do a round trip on the train. You will probably be hit with a drop charge to pick up a car in Austria and return it in Italy. It's glaringly obvious you need a car for the flexibility and multiple stops within Austria.

I don't know if there are clean connection train routes from Milan into Austria. By either car or train the easiest route is not through the Gotthard tunnel. You would go east, then north through Brenner Pass to Innsbruck. The more mountainous route through Switzerland is faster only if the Arlberg is the first stop in Austria, and that would be the more scenic route for a train trip. While on the subject James and I recommend Lech as your base in the Arlberg.

 

[Sbooker]

I presume you have to return to Milan at the end of the trip.

No. Into Milan and out of Munich. We have a couple of things we still want to see in Munich so thought we'd have a day there on the end.
Perhaps a rookie error.

By either car or train the easiest route is not through the Gotthard tunnel.

The smart people that run the internet tell me the quickest route on the train from Milan to St Anton is through Switzerland.

While on the subject James and I recommend Lech as your base in the Arlberg.

Noted. We're only going to be there for 4 nights. I will have to find somewhere that does short stays.
Lech may be too rich for my thriftiness.

 

[Sbooker]

And I've been talked into going on the Snowheads end of season 'bash' in Val Thorens in mid April. I've booked flights in and out of Geneva and will be looking for somewhere to ski for four days prior to the Snowheads thing. I'm thinking I might have to try the Vallee Blanche considering I missed it last year.

 

[Tony Crocker]

The entry and exit from different places argues for a few train trips. Yes Munich has some worthy tourist stops. I confess ignorance on the train routes. The Swiss certainly have the best reputation. Free local train transit is routinely included with Swiss lift tickets for the day. It's well known how easy the Zurich - St. Anton connection is, so connections to Milan are probably good too. I'd say take another train from St. Anton to Innsbruck and rent a car there. Then train Innsbruck - Munich at the end.

 

[Sbooker]

I'd say take another train from St. Anton to UInnsbrusk and ent a car there. Then train Innsbruck - Munich at the end.

I just checked out pricing out of Innsbruck. Very reasonable. Lots of manual cars. I've never driven a manual on the 'wrong' side of the road before. I'm up for the challenge though.

Yes Munich has some worthy tourist stops.

We had the kids with us in 2018 when we were in Munich and didn't do a tour to check out the Hitler Beer Hall Putsch sites.

Where did Beer Hall Putsch take place: All locations today

History and photos of every Beer Hall Putsch location today. Where did Beer Hall Putsch take place in 1923: beerhalls, streets in Munich

war-documentary.info

 

[ChrisC]

A Euro 23/24 thread has not been started because it seems the best air deals can be had in September/October. James has been doing this for a long time, and in recent years ChrisC and I have noticed this same pattern.

I was starting to see $500-700 fares for mid-Jan to mid-Feb time frame. Have not looked at mileage awards.

The plan is to then train it to Arlberg area for 4 days then head to Zell am See as a base for the busy week. Seems it’s easy to check out a few hills from that area and also be able to have a day trip to Salzburg to check out the Mozart/Sound of Music stuff.
We’ll depart Europe from Munich on the 19th of Feb.

The Arlberg is a great train destination for skiing. A lot of the Swiss resorts too: Andermatt, Engelberg, St. Moritz.

I understand Kitzbuhel has a good train stop and a pretty town. However, if snow is sparse - you would likely want to check out Ischgl, Solden, and Obergurgl. But Zell am See looks like and attractive lake town - and there is nearby glacier skiing at Kaprun.

Both Innsbruck and Salzburg are interesting small cities, and equally worthy of a stop.

I just checked out pricing out of Innsbruck. Very reasonable. Lots of manual cars. I've never driven a manual on the 'wrong' side of the road before. I'm up for the challenge though.

Be really careful about car rental drop fees. I tried to drop a car in Zurich from Milan - and Hertz wanted a couple of thousand for a change - during Covid era. I would be sure to price this part out. because it could be some money just thrown away.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

News from Fraser's Weather to Ski site with summer weather going from one extreme to the other:


Monday 30 August 2023
Zermatt today: the lowest I have seen snow in the Alps in August EVER!

Saturday 26 August 2023 – End of another historic heatwave in the Alps

The record-breaking heatwave that has gripped the Alps for much of August finally came to a thundery end yesterday. This heatwave saw two weeks of exceptional temperatures, with 13 consecutive days of above 35°C in Grenoble (France), 15 days topping 30°C in Innsbruck (Austria) and freezing levels hitting 5298m in Switzerland – all unprecedented events.

Another torrid summer in Tignes where the Grand Motte glacier is again looking very threadbare. Needless to say, this heatwave has hit the Alpine glaciers hard. The Grand Motte glacier above Tignes, for example, is once again almost totally devoid of snow towards the end of summer. Recent years have seen its summer ski season getting steadily shorter, this year closing on 23 July.

Right now, only 4 ski areas remain ‘possibilities’ for summer skiing, these being Hintertux in Austria, Passo Stelvio in Italy, and Saas Fee and Zermatt (also accessible via Cervinia) in Switzerland. We say ‘possibilities’ as at least two of these, Saas-Fee and Stelvio have suspended skiing operations over the last few days due to excessively high temperatures – with 10°C or more at 3200m, with no overnight refreeze.

The weather is now on the change though, with lots of rain expected across the Alps over the next few days. There will also be some snow up on the glaciers, especially early next week, when 50cm or more is possible above 3000m in places, including above Zermatt and Saas-Fee.

 

[ChrisC]

Saw on WePowder that even 1 meter of snow at elevation (Zermatt, Saas Fee) was possible.

Climate Change. 2 weeks of almost 90f in Innsbruck. Now 3 ft of new snow at altitude in Zermatt.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Snow in the summer above 10,000 feet in the Alps is not unusual. Fraser's comment relates the snow getting down to the town at 5,400 feet.

Climate change is the primary culprit in the Alps' receding glaciers in recent decades. Temperature increase in continental regions in the summer is disproportionately high. The heat plus more rain/less snow in summer upsets the balance of accumulation vs. melting. As in North America, the accumulation part has not changed much once altitude is sufficient, that being around 2,000 meters in the Alps. Even so, there was a previous dramatic receding of glaciers in Europe from the late 19th century end of the Little Ice Age up to 1940.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Just got the e-mail from United pasted below, was ready to book, then noticed the parts in red (30,000 each way is the rack award rate for winter and dates are only through Dec 14);. Thus, this is the fall sale, not winter, which usually comes anywhere from late October through mid-November. I trust that the fares will be the same as previous years: 30 to 35,000 miles roundtrip.

Three words: Europe award sale​

Enjoy cooler temperatures and fewer crowds when you book economy award fares to any of the following destinations for just 30,000 miles each way, plus taxes and fees starting at $47.15* roundtrip:

• Amsterdam, Netherlands (AMS)
• Brussels, Belgium (BRU)
• Paris, France (CDG)
• Dublin, Ireland (DUB)
• Edinburgh, Scotland (EDI)
• Frankfurt, Germany (FRA)
• Geneva, Switzerland (GVA)
• London, United Kingdom (LHR)
• Madrid, Spain (MAD)
• Munich, Germany (MUC)
• Shannon, Ireland (SNN)
• Zurich, Switzerland (ZRH)

Book by September 29 for travel by December 14 before these award fares are gone.

 

[Tony Crocker]

The above sale is on for only 4 days? Let us know when the winter one is announced! And yes, 30K each way is the minimum "normal rate," nothing special.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

The above sale is on for only 4 days?

Can't recall how long the award sales actually last; however, I found anecdotally that if you don't book in the first day or so, all of the best/nonstop itineraries that cost the least miles are gone. Then I'd have to book through a layover city: Heathrow for AA (as mentioned before: not advised due to brutal airport logistics and big landing fees/taxes that erase the savings from the sale), Frankfurt/Vienna for United, and Paris/Amsterdam for Delta. I only do layovers inside Europe to reach smaller but well-positioned airports like Innsbruck, Nice, Toulouse, etc.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

General discussion of FF awards is moved to the ski-air travel stories thread.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Interesting to note in the screenshot below that United's undiscounted award prices to the big nonstop skiing gateways from Newark (Geneva, Zurich, Milan, Munich) have increased to at least 75K roundtrip (it used to be 60K). I suspect that it's similar with Delta.

I'll be keeping my eyes peeled for the upcoming (I hope) sale because -- and I'll go on record -- I ain't paying 75K+.

 

[ChrisC]

I try to earn status/miles at both American and United.

For example, American is quite reasonable to get to Europe this winter: