Europe 23/24

[Tony Crocker]

I'll be keeping my eyes peeled for the upcoming (I hope) sale

That screenshot doesn't mean sale is on now? Same question for ChrisC?

I'll go on record -- I ain't paying 75K+.

It's the relationship of FF to cash price that matters. These days if the cash price is in the $1,200 range that I often see from the West Coast, the 75K might be preferable. I doubt James would refuse to ski the Alps at all for a season, aside from a COVID ban situation. I realize that "standard FF rates" are the same from anywhere in the US to anywhere in Europe, while West Coast cash prices are higher than East Coast. Therefore it probably makes sense to use FF miles from the East Coast only when there is a FF sale.

No deals from Delta today. 88K miles vs. "Comfort+ Economy" for $1,055. We'll pay cash if that ratio doesn't improve in the next few weeks. James, how long would you wait on this? I'd guess not any later than end of this month.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Yes, AA continues to offer that very favorable 22.5K one-way rate. The problem is: unless you fly nonstop to Zurich or Milan (the only ski gateways they serve from the U.S. -- via JFK or PHL), you'll be routed through LHR, which accounts for the unpleasant $387.30 in airport fees/taxes and the equally unpleasant terminal change between AA and BA.

 

[Tony Crocker]

Sorry, James. I now realize both screenshots are one-way fares. I have a United credit card and about 400K miles there, but no status other than the free bag with the credit card. I've never investigated United for Alps trips, as I try to save those miles for when there are no deals with Skyteam.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

James, how long would you wait on this? I'd guess not any later than end of this month.

The latest I recall a FF-award sale was the second week of November.

Given that I zeroed out my AA account and only have 160K on United, I have no choice but to wait for the sale. Paying a likely $600-ish airfare in addition to on-the-ground costs is not ideal for me. In that case, I'd go to Quebec -- haven't been there in 11 years now -- and enjoy the still advantageous exchange rate.

 

[Tony Crocker]

The Euro is $1.05 right now, which is very favorable if you recall travel in the aughts. The big picture is that a week in the Alps paying East Coast airfare now is probably cheaper than back then with a mileage award.

 

[ChrisC]

Yes, AA continues to offer that very favorable 22.5K one-way rate. The problem is: unless you fly nonstop to Zurich or Milan (the only ski gateways they serve from the U.S. -- via JFK or PHL), you'll be routed through LHR, which accounts for the unpleasant $387.30 in airport fees/taxes and the equally unpleasant terminal change between AA and BA.

Yes. You need to look for an AA flight to London to reduce fees. Then you are only taking a BA flight to Geneva which has <$100 fees.

 

[ChrisC]

Interesting to note in the screenshot below that United's undiscounted award prices to the big nonstop skiing gateways from Newark (Geneva, Zurich, Milan, Munich) have increased to at least 75K roundtrip (it used to be 60K). I suspect that it's similar with Delta.

I'll be keeping my eyes peeled for the upcoming (I hope) sale because -- and I'll go on record -- I ain't paying 75K+

Talk about devaluing miles. That's a ridiculous award price for super low season January. Those planes are lucky to be 75% full.

I would assume there would be some discount coming up. I am sure you can look at the seat maps to see what % are sold.

You can no longer earn any miles flying. The airline credit cards barely offer decent rewards. It's getting to the point where people might start just looking for a 2% cash-back card. 75,000 miles from 75k of spend. That's $1500 on a 2% cash card - good for 2 or more tickets to Europe.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

That's a ridiculous award price for super low season January. Those planes are lucky to be 75% full. I would assume there would be some discount coming up. I am sure you can look at the seat maps to see what % are sold.

That's why they have the rock-bottom award sales during fall -- after looking at the seating charts and seeing more than 2/3 of the seats unsold!

Whenever I fly overseas during the winter low season, most flights these days are close to full, likely due to filling the plane with award travellers, including many skiers. Before COVID, I recall there being a lot more open seats and it was easy to grab three in a row to lay across for better sleeping. Nowadays, I have to enlist the help of a friendly flight attendant to identify empty seats and even then it's not always a success.

 

[ChrisC]

Interesting to note in the screenshot below that United's undiscounted award prices to the big nonstop skiing gateways from Newark (Geneva, Zurich, Milan, Munich) have increased to at least 75K roundtrip (it used to be 60K). I suspect that it's similar with Delta.

I'll be keeping my eyes peeled for the upcoming (I hope) sale because -- and I'll go on record -- I ain't paying 75K+

I was looking at United Awards information. Still no sales despite planes maybe 20-30% full in January to Europe.

However, it looks like 40k/segment is the new normal for European Economy FF awards with saver awards at 37.5k/segment. I missed these devaluation stories:

One Mile At A Time here
Simple Flying here


South America jumped from 60k to nearly 100k.

The only thing good about United FF awards is domestic flights. However, it's really easy to find domestic fares to Boston, NYC, or South Florida (Miami or Fort Lauderdale) for about $250 rt if you look.

The best redemptions are remote USA destinations - like ski gateways: Kalispell, Jackson, Sun Valley, Aspen, Gunnison, Montrose, etc.



Delta seems to have some Euro ski gateways in the 60k range.

 

[ChrisC]

Given that I zeroed out my AA account and only have 160K on United, I have no choice but to wait for the sale. Paying a likely $600-ish airfare in addition to on-the-ground costs is not ideal for me. In that case, I'd go to Quebec -- haven't been there in 11 years now -- and enjoy the still advantageous exchange rate.

Maybe the West Coast?

1. Oregon (Mt. Bachelor, Mt. Hood Meadows, Timberline Lodge, or Mt. Hood SkiBowl). Relatively cheaper Western USA destination. Mt. Hood resorts are large day areas - with large off-piste zones. Bend/Bachelor is an affordable destination resort with an off-piste backside on par with the best of Europe - but it can summer from wind closures a lot more. All of these mountains max out at a low expert gradient - not many surprises (exception S&L Cliffs area at MHM)
2. Mammoth/June. So Much info on this.

Mt. Hood SkiBowl

Mt. Hood Meadows

Mt. Bachelor

 

[jamesdeluxe]

I was looking at United Awards information. Still no sales despite planes maybe 20-30% full in January to Europe. However, it looks like 40k/segment is the new normal for European Economy FF awards with saver awards at 37.5k/segment

There's no denying the new FF normal; however, I'm confident that they'll post an award sale soon. Even if it's now 40 or 45K roundtrip to Europe instead of 30 to 35K, that's still a deal.

Maybe the West Coast?

I plan to visit those places after I stop working but from where I am to reach Bachelor, Mammoth, etc., it's an entire day of travel (well north of 12 hours) in each direction, a change of planes, and so on.

 

[ChrisC]

There's no denying the new FF normal; however, I'm confident that they'll post an award sale soon. Even if it's now 40 or 45K roundtrip to Europe instead of 30 to 35K, that's still a deal.


I plan to visit those places after I stop working but from where I am to reach Bachelor, Mammoth, etc., it's an entire day of travel (well north of 12 hours) in each direction, a change of planes, and so on.

Ridiculous. Is exactly the same as flying to the Alps. Especially Portland with ski areas 1 hr from the airport. (Spokane - British Columbia & Reno - Mammoth just require longer AM drives so maybe you just get a 1/2 day for day one).

Outbound: Take an evening flight to the West Coast. The 3-hour time difference makes it very easy. No 'day' lost there.
Inbound: You can lose a day on the plane (exactly the same as returning from the Alps). However, you could do a Saturday night redeye allowing you to ski all Saturday, have a direct flight home, and have most of Sunday available (just like skiing after a redeye to the Alps.)

I would argue this is easier than flying to Switzerland or at least equivalent.

I waste a lot more time on a plane going to Europe. Generally, I try to get some business on the East before flying, but not always.

However, I was not about to wait to go to Japan or Europe for a week until a later date.

I do have friends and partners who have sworn off / don't do redeyes. But I don't care. If it's for an important business project, deal, or sale - I'm game. Or a travel destination that is hard to get to - so be it.

 

[jamesdeluxe]

Ridiculous. Is exactly the same as flying to the Alps.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

I'd never heard of Air Canada's Aeroplan until the article ChrisC posted above. Will have to investigate.

 

[ChrisC]

True Travel Hell is getting to Las Lenas:

• 2 Days from the USA to Las Lenas
  • Redeye to Buenos Aires
  • Redeye Bus from BA to Las Lenas OR some horrible flights plus a bus.
• 2 Days from Las Lenas to USA
  • Redeye Bus from Las Lenas to Buenos Aires
  • Redeye Buenos Aires to USA

Four wasted days, but some downtime in Buenos Aires. Hopefully, your ski gear does not get stolen while touring the city.
That's a retirement trip - likely to add Bariloche / Lakes Region for another week.


Very jealous of friends who have been able to take a sabbatical for 4 to 12 months. I would be like Bode Miller (when he was on the World Cup tour) and buy a van and go around the Alps.

 

[Tony Crocker]

True Travel Hell is getting to Las Lenas:

• 2 Days from the USA to Las Lenas
  • Redeye to Buenos Aires
  • Redeye Bus from BA to Las Lenas OR some horrible flights plus a bus.
• 2 Days from Las Lenas to USA
  • Redeye Bus from Las Lenas to Buenos Aires
  • Redeye Buenos Aires to USA

Been there and done that. The double redeye did degrade my first two days of skiing, in terms of being tired and having swollen feet.

My first trip to Las Lenas in 2005 was easier on an Extremely Canadian package. It included an overnight in Buenos Aires and a Saturday morning flight to Malargue with less than an hour bus transfer to Las Lenas. On the back end Adam and I were spending another week in South America and there was a clean connection at the Buenos Aires domestic airport from the return Malargue flight onwards to Iguazu. Those Saturday Malargue flights may no longer exist. Las Lenas' resort vitality declined between 2005 and 2015.

With Delta this week's prices for LAX-GVA with one stop are $1,019 or 82K miles +$94, which means cash is preferred. I have doubts the cash price will get any better. How long should we hold out for a better mileage deal?

 

[ChrisC]

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Not sure what you have against Pacific cities and Left Coast skiing , but Portland PDX is as convenient as a Spokane GEG trip.

Similar flight times:

Distance/drive times to nearest ski area: Mt. Hood SkiBowl OR (definitely a little area that rocks / big night ski operation) and Mt. Spokane WA. Ski arrival day - or departure.

Or destination resorts: Bend/Mt. Bachelor OR and Schweitzer ID:

I would rather be skiing the big (and little) West Coast Mountains of the USA (CA, OR, WA) or British Columbia when I am young than the smaller places of Europe. Those Euro resorts can be saved for retirement. Unless global warming shuts some down before then.

Oh well. Enough.



Maybe it's the media. Not every block of Portland, San Francisco, or Seattle is overrun by homeless, filled with Fentanyl overdoses, or ripe with car break-ins.

I had to take my friends through the Tenderloin/SOMA neighborhoods of SF because they did not believe what the media was reporting. Those neighborhoods have been that way forever.

 

[ChrisC]

Been there and done that. The double redeye did degrade my first two days of skiing, in terms of being tired and having swollen feet.

Is New Zealand as bad? I only have been to the South Island once - after Australia - and did a summer/Jan loop from Christchurch: Marlborough, Franz Joseph Glacier, and Queenstown. Lots of winding roads. Assume fly (or drive to Queenstown from Christchurch?)

 

[ChrisC]

With Delta this week's prices for LAX-GVA with one stop are $1,019 or 82K miles +$94, which means cash is preferred. I have doubts the cash price will get any better. How long should we hold out for a better mileage deal?

I am not sure. Milan is cheaper by $200 or so on every route. If you are going to Switzerland (Zermatt, Saas-Fee, Verbier, Andermatt, etc) or French Haute-Savoie skiing, it's not bad.

 

[ChrisC]

With Delta this week's prices for LAX-GVA with one stop are $1,019 or 82K miles +$94, which means cash is preferred. I have doubts the cash price will get any better. How long should we hold out for a better mileage deal?

Last year there was a flight sale after October. Things dipped about 30% by mid-November. Assume FF awards dipped too since they follow airfares now.

Old tracking emails:

 

[Tony Crocker]

Thanks. I'm inclined to wait it out awhile since our dates are flexible.