this weeks sign that the apocalypse is upon us

Tony Crocker":1kly294q said:
I made a lot of invidious Powdr Corp comparisons vs. Bachelor at the beginning of the season. Further investigation indicated that while Powdr was not going to shower Killington with outside $, they would at least not be taking money out and were going to give some existing management there a chance to improve the experience.

So I decided to hold my fire for awhile and wait and see how the first season turned out. Perhaps I will have to browse other forums to find out :( .
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The reality is that for the weekend warrior, almost everything about the present Killington is the same or better than the ASC Killington other than the shortened season. They detoxified Saturday skiing and put the fall trail rollout schedule back to the pre-ASC emphasis on advanced terrain. Season pass prices are still cheaper than 6 years ago. Break even is 13 ski days (used to be 20 or 21 days) which is fair given they contracted the season from 7 months to 5 months. They've announced they're replacing the Skye Peak quad with a high speed lift. That's the first new lift in more than a decade.

There have been a few days after ice storms where the trimming of staff was noticable. They take longer to de-ice lifts. They've had delays getting things groomed out.

If you owned a lifetime pass, you're a midweeker, got laid off last summer, own rental property, own something at Pico, own something on the lower stage of the Skyeship, or own a business in town, you have reason to be pretty upset. The town voted in a local 1% sales tax as a dope slap to the resort. The town is now very obstructionist to any proposals to build a base village.

I think the no BYOB thing at the Bear Mountain Mogul Challenge is much ado about nothing. I'd be shocked if they try to enforce it. No Killington employee is going to walk up to a bunch of drunks and tell them to get rid of their alcohol. The State Liquor Board only cares about handing out alcohol to minors and has no stake in the game. The local constables want nothing to do with it. It's on private property and I find it hard to believe Killington is going to contract the Vermont State Police to try to lock up a few thousand people who are their core business.

The owner is from Utah. The President is from Oregon. The owner of the land for the village is from Texas. They have no clue about eastern spring skiing. Sugarbush, Mt Snow, and Okemo are all going after the Killington share house base. At some point, they'll have no choice but to change their policy to a rational one where they run a lift or two until the snow melts. When they replace the Snowdon lift with something where they can download people, it gives them a lot more options to use the Glades Triple and the Canyon Quad after the Cascade runout and Lower Bunny Buster have melted out. With all the money at stake for the village project, these guys are going to have to start extending some olive branches and I figure extending the season some and running a few more lifts midweek is the cheap way to get back on the good side with the town.
 
Thanks Geoff for that details analysis of the situation.

They have no clue about eastern spring skiing. Sugarbush, Mt Snow, and Okemo are all going after the Killington share house base. At some point, they'll have no choice but to change their policy to a rational one where they run a lift or two until the snow melts. (...) With all the money at stake for the village project, these guys are going to have to start extending some olive branches and I figure extending the season some and running a few more lifts midweek is the cheap way to get back on the good side with the town.
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Yes, they are going to have to start realizing that this is the East, however, they might just be blind by they're own preconceive notions/ideas on how to run their business and refusal to see anything wrong in their decisions.
 
The owner is from Utah. The President is from Oregon. The owner of the land for the village is from Texas.
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Well, I'm from California and make unkind remarks about eastern spring skiing from time to time :wink:, but I can figure out that Killington and Mt. Bachelor are rather different in terms of skier population base and competitive position vs. other regional areas.

How much in term of terrain is routinely shut down midweek other than the closed days at Pico? No improvement in snowmaking/grooming other than a better early season priority list for opening runs?

Up and downloading Snowden is another option for transport to the upper mountain runs that are best for early/late season. As management I would still vote for tying upper mountain skiing to the K1 gondola, because its top station restaurant and shop could be spiffed up into a good revenue source. Top of the mountain facilities like that can also bring in summer sightseeing income.
 
geoff wrote:
Lots of bumps on OL now manufactured for the bump contest this weekend.

joegm orginally wrote:
why will killington manufacture bumps just for the mogul challenge on ol but not manufacture them on a regular basis for the rest of the season? don't you see the ridiculousness of this? how are people supposed to be able to compete in the " mogul challenge" if the there are never any bumps that will be in the " mogul challenge " available to ski on ?


geoff wrote:
There have been bumps on skier's right all year.

joegm originally wrote:
from killington on march 16th "We'll be grooming 78 trails for your carving pleasure on Tuesday including favorites such as Ovation, Skyelark, Launch Pad and the legendary Outer Limits, the steepest mogul run in the East

geoff wrote:
if you want perpetual ungroomed, you only have to go one trail over to Devils Fiddle.

joegm originally wrote:
you think i have a problem with them grooming out ol.. your wrong..... i have a problem with them grooming it out and not building up bumps on it...of course it needs to be groomed out ....i think i probably think it needs to be groomed out a lot more than you think i do.....it just needs to be immediately restored when they do groom it and not leave it to form naturally, which, by your own admission, turns out to be garbarge most of the time because of less than competant skiing...seeding the moguls removes that as a problem

geoff wrote: .........nothing- in response to :

joegm wrote:
1- why doesn't killington set up a TRUE PUBLIC course on the bottom lower third , skiers left of OL and maintain it? maintain it means , yes, build it, then tear it down then rebuild it when it needs it.....just like they do with the pipe and just like they do in the park...nothing more nothing less...
...just because you are not interested in skiing bumps with even left / right turns , doesn't mean others are not...just because you feel that naturally formed bumps are the only bumps that matter, doesn't mean that everyone feels that way...2-what's wrong with having some decent bumps available to ski for the times when lines like devils fiddle are not in good shape? ( which, if you are honest, is more often than not _ i'd really , really like to hear just someone come up with a reasonable answer to these questions...

geoff wrote:
I realize you don't want the facts to intrude on your alternate universe

joegm writes:
what are you talking about?????

geoff wrote:
OL and Fiddle face east and are relatively low elevation
They'd be unskiable much of the time without grooming.

joegm writes:
right geoff, and so would the pipe and the parks .. thats why they build and rebuild them constantly throughout the season...is there a reason why you feel that is not reasonable to do with some mogul runs???? see to someone who understands the issue, the concept of building one or 2 lines of bumps down the far right or left of a few trails like fiddle and ol AND SAY NEEDLES EYE, A BLUE, on a regular basis, taking them down when the lines get hacked and rebuilding them up , is not really that much of an alternative universe...it just makes sense...to someone who really doesnt care much about skiing bumps, i guess that would be hard to see. you seem to be able to do a lot of talking about many things and to be honest, what you say about all the other issues seems to be quite a spot on, well informed opinion based on facts, but you don't seem to be able to manage to directly address the original issue that the post was about... they groomed out ol and advertised it as such, how many days ago... and now because the bmmc is 48 hours away, moguls go in... you just don't get it man... or you don't want to get it...
geoff , by your own admission, the people who are running killington now do not now really have a keen insight as to how to run the hill, micro wise on some issues... some things they just don't seem to get...the mogul issue is also something that they, along with many many other people just don;t get....macro wise, they had success with the things you point out....
why is it so hard to conceed that with this issue, they might not be doing it right, along with all the other issues they are being accused of doing wrong...i'm not saying either way about all the other things, but on the mogul issue, i am.
it is laughable for you to post about how all year they have had skiers right on ol bumped up....it shows you really don;t get the point of the post....that is total garbage terrain, 90% of the time...the parks and pipe would never be allowed to deteriorate to the condition that the moguls on ol and fiddle are 90% of the time....that's the point... you don;t have a clue to what the point was when you post " if you want perpetual ungroomed "....never wanted that and never once advocated it.. where do you get that from????
 
Most ski area managements think moguls are a natural phenomenon requiring no intervention on their part. In the West that probably works most of the time. Are bumps seeded at Mary Jane, that Mecca of moguls skiers? My impression is that because that place has the rep (plus Colorado snow that never gets rained on) good bump lines are naturally formed by the mogul aficionados that flock there.

Average ski ability is very high at MRG too, and I recall several bump runs with intermediate/not that steep pitch. Does joegm find those bump lines satisfactory, assuming appropriate snow conditions?

I think joegm has made a persuasive case that management intervention would ebnhance mogul skiing in the East. But lots of people are going to have to contact managements and request it/provide feedback, as I suspect occurs with the terrain parks.
 
my opinion, and it is just that, my opinion, is that the lines at mrg are acceptable 95% of the time... you stated the reasons why and i agree... the skier is totally different there... the zing i gave mrg earlier in the year had more to do with them falling into the industry line of thinking that moguls only go on steep blacks....when mrg was presented with a situation where they clearly had to groom out the surfaces ( i still don't know where or why geoff invented this notion that i don't think anyone should ever groom runs that are by tradition mogul runs ) in the case of mrg, i thought that until the lines came back up on runs like quacky that they smashed , they could have built some lines with some nice left rights on the side of a trail... there are at least 5 different spots on the hill that they could do that in... the projected forcast at the time of the smash was not encouraging in terms of snowfall.. the temps were gonna stay low and those two things are the magic formula for hardpack flat...but yes, mrg is the exception....every single other ski area, including places like stowe and jay and the other major league ball players, draw too many types of skiers that , through no fault of their own other than they just do not ski at a high enough level to form good lines, end up producing the garbage that is skiers right of outer limits 90% of the time....
crocker nails it again with the analysis that it is not going to happen unless people ask for it.. that's how the park scene exploded 10 years ago....i get aggravated not because people are not going in and banging the desk but for a worse reason...don't get me wrong , i wish people would bang the drum... what get's me fired is is when people like geoff actually go the OTHER WAY and actively defend the lack of proactivity in the area from the resorts and offer up excuses as to why it is not necessary....the people who sit on the sidelines and say nothing, i can understand.. they just don't get it....a real skier, which is suspect a guy like geoff is by and large, should be able to get it, in my opinion...even if it doesn't affect him....i would assume geoff would see and understand the need to groom and maintain the park and pipe, even if he never sets foot in them....there is no reason why mogul runs cannot be available to ski anywhere from 80 to 90 % of the time that the park and pipe is available, which is about 95% of time....UNMANAGED moguls in the east , i would say, are generally skiable about 30 to 40 % of the time, AND THAT MIGHT BE HIGH...it's just not fair and it's not right, but it is probably a losing battle, especially when trying to convince people like geoff.. it's not asking for new high speed quad.. it's not asking to cut down a million trees for new tree line.. it's not asking for a new base lodge or a new village or a new access road....it's asking for a little bit of resource to build some decent friggin lines which if they were built, might encourage more people to ski moguls with some confidence, which might encourage more people to bang the drum for more lines...this is not astrophysics....what the hell is the big deal????
 
I've been saying the same thing over on ZS for years, but most skiers don't ski bumps nore powder and that's why they groom everything as fast as they can, at most hills, most of the time !

It'a a shame because skiing moguls is probably the best way to learn how to turn fast, often and immediately when needed. Even if you don't zipper them you'll learn something everytime. If you can ski moguls you can ski anything else period !

and afterall spring is moguls season :P
Mont Sainte-Anne here we come !
 
Martin said:
I've been saying the same thing over on ZS for years, but most skiers don't ski bumps nore powder and that's why they groom everything as fast as they can, at most hills, most of the time !

It'a a shame because skiing moguls is probably the best way to learn how to turn fast, often and immediately when needed. Even if you don't zipper them you'll learn something everytime. If you can ski moguls you can ski anything else period !

and afterall spring is moguls season :P
Mont Sainte-Anne here we come !
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amen martin.....you get it too
 
Martin":1123x7hy said:
and afterall spring is moguls season :P
Mont Sainte-Anne here we come !
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MSA is a great place for Spring skiing. Thinking S and SuperS steep mogul runs or any other steep South side run. =P~ A trip is definitely in the cards before they close on April 27. :roll: Another great bumps location is Tremblant. Runs is Expo, Cossak, Dynamite, ZigZag, Vertige...all top notch steep bump runs like I like them. Spring skiing and corn bumps...it might be so 80s, but it's still great.
 
icelanticskier said:
zippering isn't turning, it's more like straightlining or for many, pivot skiddin. LOL
rog
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rog,
you could not be more wrong about that... you need to go to mogulskiing.net and read the technique boards and then buy either john smarts or chuck martins instructional tape to really see how foolish a statement you made...
and oh yeah, real bumpers don't use the term zippering.... :wink:
 
Patrick":ucplzp20 said:
...it might be so 80s, but it's still great.
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I think you really just hit on the answer to Joegm's question. Image is everything, and moguls aren't especially en vogue. Terrain parks, woods, and halfpipes are what pull the crowds today (and some nice groom for mom and pop). If your buddy can do a backside hooptie rodeo, you can't waste your time practicing moguls for god sakes!!!! Why do you think Killington destroyed Bear mountain with that crap in the first place? Okemo was eating deep into their yuppie family customer base them with two halfpipes and a big park served by a poma and plenty of groom across a blue mountain. K had that hard to get to turd under the gondola and lots of bumps everywhere!
 
joegm":33ex489n said:
icelanticskier":33ex489n said:
zippering isn't turning, it's more like straightlining or for many, pivot skiddin. LOL
rog
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rog,
you could not be more wrong about that... you need to go to mogulskiing.net and read the technique boards and then buy either john smarts or chuck martins instructional tape to really see how foolish a statement you made...
and oh yeah, real bumpers don't use the term zippering.... :wink:
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is that a picture of you next to the left of the thread? if so, maybe you should reread those books or better yet pic up a copy of joey baggadonuts and his trip to loon. LOL
rog
 
[/quote] or better yet pic up a copy of joey baggadonuts and his trip to loon. LOL
rog[/quote]

what does that mean???? what are you talking about???

and for the record... the photo is scott bellavance team canada member skiing the glacier in whistler in the summer of 2004...he came in 7th in the 2002 olympic games....i'll be sure to let him know you disapprove of his turns.... :roll:
keep up the good work posting on a topic that you are clueless about... gives you a ton of crediblity :roll: are you kidding me?????
 
While moguls are low on my priority list, I find joegm's philosophical arguments given his preference to be reasonable.

What I don't understand is his masochistic insistence on skiing crap at places like Loon most of the time. It's so obvious that MRG's bumps are the best fit for him in the East. Can't he cherry pick the best bump days there like River and others cherry pick the powder days? And how about a week at Mary Jane (not exactly the most ritzy resort in the West) every year like Sharon's trips to Utah? I'll bet he'd be more cheerful around here if he were doing that.
 
or better yet pic up a copy of joey baggadonuts and his trip to loon. LOL
rog[/quote]

what does that mean???? what are you talking about???

and for the record... the photo is scott bellavance team canada member skiing the glacier in whistler in the summer of 2004...he came in 7th in the 2002 olympic games....i'll be sure to let him know you disapprove of his turns.... :roll:
keep up the good work posting on a topic that you are clueless about... gives you a ton of crediblity :roll: are you kidding me?????[/quote]

exactly. glad that's not a pic of you, thanx for the history of the pic as i now have a much better understanding of the sport of mogul skiing. you must know that i'm just messin with ya,don't ya? notice the LOL'S?
rog
 
Tony Crocker":3mhn8qw7 said:
While moguls are low on my priority list, I find joegm's philosophical arguments given his preference to be reasonable.
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Gee. I don't.

For some reason, he wants a mountain that is stuffed full of ungroomed natural snow bump runs to manufacture a bump course for him. Killington has had a manufactured bump course for many years but it's been a training course for KMS and the K Ski Club junior programs. It's maintained by KMS and Ski Club people. This year, they moved it to Conclusion next to the Alpine Training Center to be convenient and to free up Outer Limits for the masses. In other years, it was on Vertigo.

When Killington gets hit by an ice storm, they knock the mountain flat just like any other ski resort. You can still ski ice bumps places like Devils Fiddle or the Needles Eye liftline all day. Bear Mountain used to be bumper heaven. The market changed. It's now a big terrain park and half pipe. Deal with it. They're not going to make a bump course for the general public because it would get ruined every day and they'd have to reconstruct it at a pretty major expense. It's not like running a rake over the landing area in the terrain park. It's a huge amount of labor and a day's traffic of tourons turning it into wall bumps with the back side cut away would render the thing unskiable.
 
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